Another accident
 

There has been yet another accident on Morse/466A, this time involving a pregnant woman. The news doesn't say exactly how it happened, but putting that aside, the lights at these major intersections should have a light in the turning lanes that are red and green arrow turn signals only. With the amount of impatient people driving I believe it would save lives and save many from injury. If you could only make a turn on the green arrow, opposed to turning on a green arrow and a green light it would take the guess work out of wondering if there were cars coming in the opposite direction, making it dangerous to attempt a turn across traffic. How many accidents will have to happen before changes are made? It reminds me of the danger at Colony crossing before they put that light in. I hope these intersections will get the safety lights needed to protect us all from serious injury.

It's not the intersection, but the nuts behind the wheel !!!!

I agree. When there are cars trying to make a turn in both directions, it is nearly impossible to see oncoming cars in the left lanes coming at you. The turn lanes should be arrows only and turn red until the next cycle.

I also agree, green arrows should not be green if they don't have the right away. usually the green arrow goes yellow then out when on coming traffic goes green. IMO if the green arrow stays green when on coming traffic gets green light this is just stupid unless I misunderstood.

I believe some blame rests on inpatient drivers. I was going south on Morse on Wednesday and was stopped at the light at 466a. On two occasions, two cars also going south on Morse pulled up beside me and made a right hand turn onto 466a without stopping while there was oncoming traffic. They both nearly caused an accident. We can write about how drivers around here ignore traffic signals until we are blue in the face because these people will not change.

Seriously, what can you expect with 100k residents? No accidents? Maybe where we moved from (Smithville, MO w/ a pop. of 8k residents). Accidents are going to happen with this many people, the "in season", the people that are new residents, new snowbirds, people that have aged in place here and their skills have diminished - YOUR NECK HAS TO BE ON A SWIVEL AT ALL TIMES TO KEEP FROM BECOMING A STATISTIC. As the commercial used to say, "watch out for the other guy".

The design of several of the intersections around TV are in my humble opinion sub par, especially those with 466, 466a and Morse and Buvena Vista. In all of these cases, cars attempting to make LEFT turns from 466 or 466a cannot see around on coming cars make a left from the opposite direction. Even creeping out into the intersection does not provide a good line of sight. Add to this the fact that the traffic is usually 5 to 10 mph above the posted 45 mile speed limit, and it adds up to several very difficult intersections to turn left.
Personally I have decided to wait at the end of the left turn lane until I have clear line of sight, and then make my left turn, even if this means waiting until the next light cycle. I am retired, and not in a hurry to get anywhere, especially in to an accident.
Back up North, the highway engineers recognized this problem, and cut the left turn lane into the island, and left what would be the present left turn lane as a stripped area to stay out of. This solution provides MUCH BETTER line of sight for left turns.

While I understand the OP's concerns the remedy in my view will back up traffic even more. consider the left turning lanes to Morse from 466 and at the Morse gate and also at rolling Acres Road left turn on 466.

People driving here seemed to have lost their common sense. In a desire to be polite they stop in the middle of the road or turn to accommodate and forget that there are drivers behind them Turn signals are ignored. Some drivers deliberately stay in the left lane on 46, etc at or below the speed limit in some attempt to slow down all traffic. I was trying to pass a guy going under 40 on 466 and when he thought i was closing too fast he slammed on his brakes. No he didn't just tap his brakes he almost can to a complete stop on purpose. all to prevent people from passing him A
guy like that can get a ticket on the Florida Turnpike No I was more than angry and it takes a lot to get me riled up

and if I hear that non sequitur "why are you in a hurry your retired" I am going to scream

Exactly. I worked in a small city of 100,000 people 20 miles south of Boston for over 20 years. I'd be surprised if a day went by without some kind of accident. There are probably several ever day.

We are a community of over 100,000 people with three or four 45 mph roads going east to west. It's ridiculous to get all worked up every time there is a little accident. Some people are not god drivers. An extremely large percentage of our driver are very old and perhaps many should not have a license.

I wouldn't want to see red arrows at these intersections. There are too many times, especially in the summer months where you be waiting to make a left turn at a light for no reason. Some impatient people would just go through the light in these cases.

We don't live in a perfect world. As long as there are cars, there are going to be accidents. The more cars, the more accidents. The older (or younger) the drivers, the more accidents we'll have.

We came past this accident minutes after it happened. We were coming west on 466a from Colony.
One contributing factor could easily have been the sun, in the west bound driver's eyes. At that precise time, it was at an angle that made it VERY difficult to see any on-coming traffic. As we CAREFULLY made our left turn to go South on Morse, the sun angle was directly in our eyes. But with time taken, we could see it was clear.
This is NOT meant to be an excuse for the accident. If you can't see clear enough to determine it is clear, then don't proceed.
Just wanted to add another possible contributor to the accident.

Factor in that folks bring their habits (bad and good) with them with the driving. I agree with all the posters with this being a bad intersection, time of day etc. Speed, impatience also factor into situations along with poor "reaction time" and perception of distance. I say use great (emphasis on great) caution when out and about. Snowbirds are here but with Jan. we also will have the renters joining us. I'm only mentioning them because as we all know the changes within our community are rapid. If you leave for any amount of time and come back you all know that's evident with our growth. But when folks are unfamiliar too, it makes for more situations we need to be wary of.

I think this intersection is very well designed and has great sight lines. The accidents that happen there are entirely due to drivers' impatience. Usually the "turn left on green arrow or green light" is fine. People just think they need to get through the intersection whether it's safe or not.

Another accident
 

Oohoh. Pet peeve time. Even if you want to be ultra conservative and wait for the light to turn (assuring a safe turn), you should proceed into the intersection to do it, not wait at the stop bar. Then you turn after the light changes, assuming you haven't been able to turn sooner. This also allows one or possibly even two more cars, who have also crept past the stop bar, to turn if everybody drives the intersection properly. That's the proper...and safe...way to make left turns on a green ball.

Maybe I misread something. But I believe that is the worst, and one of the most dangerous pieces of driving advice I have ever, ever seen, heard of, or read.

The one that I find hard to navigate is trying to make the left turn coming out of Colony onto Morse heading south. The foliage blocks the view of traffic coming down Morse towards 466A so it's hard to judge. I try to go the other way when I can and navigate a left off of 466A onto Morse which can also have an obstructed view if there is a truck in the opposite direction trying to make a left or go straight.

I try to make eye contact with other drivers when doing this so at least I know they see me.

Applying ones brakes to stop in ongoing traffic is extremely dangerous and I can understand how upsetting that situation would be. Talk about Adrenalin, yikes. Good for you for being alert enough to avoid that accident. :eclipsee_gold_cup:

And what would that be?

Another accident
 

You do know that, when making a left turn on a green ball you are supposed to creep out into the intersection, not wait at the stop bar, right? Please tell me you know that.

I agree, Pointer. Continually inching out onto Morse to assure clearance for a left turn and also watching oncoming traffic heading north on Morse is very scary, especially during busy times of the day. So, I make a right turn from Colony and go around the Hadley/Hemingway circle and proceed south. Its a minute longer but oh so much safer.

Many do not. They sit at the stop bar.

Z

Yeah. That's what I was referring to as my pet peeve.

I am going to agree with everyone and say that the accidents at this and similar intersections are due to:
1) the impatience of drivers
2) the poor driving habits of drivers
3) the poor design of the lights or the intersection itself
4) the statistical probability of accidents with the large population in TV

If you or a loved one is injured in an accident, does it really matter what the reason? That being said, why not change things up to make them as safe as possible?

You are starting to see various county's in Florida starting to install flashing yellow left hand turn signals when traffic is moving in both directions to alert you to turn with caution, and solid green for when it's your right away to turn left. Folks need to use common sense, and don't turn if you can't see a clear path. There is a lot of motorcycles driven in Florida and our tri-county area. The majority of accidents with motorcycles are from cars pulling out in front of them. Perhaps, when you reach 65 and older you should be required to take a driving class every 5 years to refresh folks memories on the both state law and how to drive safely.

When there is traffic in the opposite left turn lane, the farther into the intersection you go, the less you are able to see down the other side to determine if it is safe to make your turn.

If you wait farther back, you have a better view of the lights to know when they change.

If you wait at the stop bar, you do not risk being caught in the middle of the intersection when the cross traffic starts to move.

The frequency with which people run red lights makes it dangerous to assume you can safely turn when the light turns yellow or red, much less have two or three more cars follow behind you.

If a driver is more comfortable waiting at the stop bar until they are confident it is safe to make their turn, that is what they should do. They are under no obligation to do what they are not comfortable with to expedite your journey.

people need to s-l-o-w down put the phone away and just drive, i for one don't know why people are in a rush...........to go home and watch tv????? its better to be safe than to be sorry.................right

I know that that one or more cars creeping into the intersection, trying to get a better look and waiting for the light to change before making their left turn are putting themselves in a very precarious and dangerous situation. They are assuming that A, oncoming traffic will heed their yellow light and stop, and B, someone from the other direction will not time their GREEN light, proceed through and broadside those stranded in the intersection because they were too impatient to wait for the next light cycle. And by the way, in many or most, if not in all cases, those creepers into the intersection end up running a RED light. That is against the law, period. No gray areas at all. So when you decide to go ahead and creep, I pray other drivers are more aware of driving laws, and keep their families safe and far away from you car, where ever they encounter you.

Another accident
 

In these wide median intersections, you can safely begin your left movement some as you creep into the intersection, increasing, not decreasing, the visibility of oncoming traffic. And of course you have to limit your advancement so you can see the signal. That still leaves plenty of room to move into the intersection.

I agree a driver should do only what they are comfortable doing. But if they don't feel comfortable doing the correct things, there are other matters to consider.

You should never take your left turn without looking for approaching traffic, regardless of the status of the signal. But moving into the intersection in preparation for your left turn is the correct procedure.

Driving instructions explain to students that when making a left while the light is full green vis a vis a left arrow move forward and be in a position to continue your left turn when oncoming traffic clears.

The suggestion that a left arrow light go to red instead of green is only going to back up traffic. People's errors in judgment or lack of confidence is what gets them in a fix not the traffic signals

Another accident
 

Wow. Where to begin.

When done properly, advancing into the intersection to make a left turn on a green light does NOT put drivers at risk. They have the right of way for crying out loud. Would you hesitate to drive straight through an intersection on a green light because somebody might run the opposing red light?!?

And finally, when you have crept into the intersection while your signal is green, beyond the stop bar, and proceed to complete your left turn after the light turns red, you are fully compliant with the law. You're right on one count...there is no gray area. Not only is it safe and the correct method, it is legal!!

I think the speed on drivers on 466A is also an issue. Even the dump and cement trucks drive at outrageous speeds.

I agree 100%. many people are just inconsiderate of those around them. The other ones are the person that gets in the right lane at an intersection doesn't turn right and makes everyone behind him wait for the light and the person that stays int he left hand lane when other cars approach him from behind and he refuses to move over.

They actually finally passed a law requiring drivers in the left hand lane to move over when a car comes up behind them regardless of the speed. That means if you are traveling over the speed limit and someone comes up behind you and wants to pass, you MUST move over. I can't imagine how this will be enforced, but at least they made a common sense law.

Advice from Canada:
http://http://www.siskinds.com/Publications/All/To-go-or-not-to-go-Left-turn-obligations.aspx

And this from Michigan:
http://http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/09/traffic_talk_should_you_enter.html

I agree. Driving defensively takes precedence for me. Why move into the intersection to wait for it to be clear when traffic is so steady that I know damned well it won't ever be clear? That just leaves me sitting in the middle of the intersection after my light has turned red. Depending on the people coming towards me who squeeze their yellow light until it screams, I may very well still be sitting there when cross traffic gets their green and they have to wait for me to finish my turn before they can proceed. Which maneuver is liable to make the most people wait?

I only proceed into the intersection when traffic is light and there's all probability of me being able to turn on solid green.

Halibut, YES YES, that's my point

The green arrow goes out and the green round light comes on for all traffic to proceed. If turning left you have to yield to oncoming traffic.

After reading these comments, it's clear we all have different opinions on what's safe when making left hand turns in big intersections. Perhaps the time of day should be considered. For instance at 1:00 PM the traffic is most likely at a high volume, making it unsafe to sit in an intersection waiting to make a left hand turn. Most likely you will be in the intersection after your light has turned red, which is illegal. At 9:00PM, when traffic is at a low point it is probably safe to creep into the intersection to make a turn. With that being said, if you are the first car at the stop bar waiting to make a left hand turn, as another poster pointed out it's not always a good vantage point for seeing oncoming traffic, especially if there is a car in the opposite direction waiting to make their left hand turn. Perhaps the car behind you or a car two cars behind you have a better site line for seeing whether it is safe to make that turn or not. So here's where the problem arises.....since those cars behind you have a better site line to see if it safe to make a left hand turn or not and you being the first car don't have a good site line, that's when the horns start blowing! Then, you as the driver in the first car get intimidated and decide to proceed with the turn even though you don't have a good sight line.....and BANG! Another car plows into you at 50mph or more. So, if you are sitting behind someone making a left hand turn and they chose not to make the turn when YOU think they should, maybe they can't see well enough to do so safely. Please give them a break. Is the extra seconds or minutes really worth someone's life? Also, if you have two cars in an intersection turning left coming from opposite directions, which I've seen many times, it makes for a very confusing area. I just can't see where waiting in the intersection to make a left turn when it is busy is safe, regardless of the rules.

Another accident
 

Common misconception. It is not illegal. If you cross the stop bar on green (creep into the intersection), it is legal to complete your left turn after the signal turns red. It is called clearing the intersection, and is an expected part of a properly functioning intersection.

I have no intent to blow my own horn or anything...honest! :) But Just for the record, I have a Master of Engineering degree from the University of Florida Transportation Institute, where I specialized in traffic engineering. I then worked for 30 years in various aspects of road design and traffic engineering.

The turn I describe above, when executed properly at a well-designed intersection of course, is safe, efficient, and perfectly legal.

Based on your background, you must know that there are many busy intersections in Florida where the left turn green arrow turns solid red in both directions when the main light turns green in both directions. It seems that the intersection at Morse and CR466 is headed in that direction based on the number of cars and lack of visibility and number of accidents.

Newly installed signals at US301 & CR466 have the flashing amber left turn arrow.

How many accidents were the result of someone making a left turn at this intersection?

Another accident
 

Yep. Totally different situation. No left turn when the signal controlling left turns is red. The "creep into the intersection" movement applies to a left turn green ball only.