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Social Security, yea or nay?
Yes, we all paid into Social Security for our working careers and, naturally, the Social Security general fund was "raided" to pay for other things. That is not the issue of this post.
I would like to know opinions on IF Social Security had been an opt-in program, who would have decided NOT to opt-in and to save/invest for their own retirement. At retirement age, if you had NOT opted-in, there would be absolutely no government assistance even if you had not made good saving/investment choices. Which would you have taken - advised your children and grandchildren to have taken? |
If we only knew then what we know now.
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My grandfather never had social security and was poor all of his life with a family of 7. He never owned a house or car. In his retirement he received state aid. His main occupation during his working years was "coal mining". Either the state or federal government must step in with some minimum safety net. If you change your opening post you might get more replies. As it stands you have stacked the deck in favor of the answer you're looking for. |
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When I, and assume most others were working, there were very few alternatives...you selected your employer and one of the main factors was retirement. Annuities and the like were new on the landscape and not discussed much. Not sure of you intent in asking this question, because I was always told my social security was a guaranty by the government, but I should save as much as possible to add to that plus my employers retirement plan. Today, those retirement plans are history for the most part and it is now, for those younger folks....you do not have a retirement in most cases, unless with the government (state or federal), and social security will never do it, so you better begin to invest and start young. To respond directly, I can't answer it...it was a different time and age, and today's investment opportunities just did not exist. I would really like to know the reason for the question actually. Recently there appears to be a subtle message from some that I should feel guilty for collecting SS. As I said to the other thread, I suppose posting with the same motivation as usual, I feel not one iota of guilt. PS...DIdnt you often times mention you worked for the government so you DID NOY pay into SS. You paid, I think a percentage into the federal retirement fund. Sorry if I am wrong..my memory is shot..you know these old social security collectors. |
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if opting out was indeed a choice we as a nation would be confronted with millions who would have opted out...only to use the money. Then when between the rock and the hard place years hit they would be lined up looking for support/supplement/give away.
The same issue exists with younger people who do in fact have the option to buy insurance and didn't or don't......until they need support/supplement/hand out. Opting out should only be when proof of the alternate investment is provided and maintained. The Treasury could do that like they do everything else....right? |
I think the average American doesn't understand investing enough to "opt out" and would end up with ZERO $ at retirement age and would cosequently further burden our over burdened society. I have never liked paying in to social security but as it stands, I am glad I did and everyone has to.
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I didn't read bias into that at all. It sounded to me like he was just being clear about the hypothetical situation he was describing. |
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Many people don't have the wherewithal to start saving in their twenties, thinking they have plenty of time. When they have reached 50 or so, it's too late. Giving people the option to opt out would generate a whole new generation of broke retirees. Some people now have to work until they drop dead. Sorry I don't agree that anyone should opt out of SS. |
I don't think that you should be able to opt out but your SS money should be yours and go into a 401k type program that you can not touch until age 62. The investment choices should be controlled to some extent. You would end up with a lot more than what you are getting now!
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Do you really think the average person (especially 20 - 40 years olds) knows how to invest in a 401K program?
I would be in favor of all americans continue paying into Social Security, but rather than giving them the option of investng in a 401K type program, have them invest in a government run TSP program which has been Extremely succesful for more than 30 years and provides for a number of investment options. Even with the TSP, how do you get the 20 year old to invest in stocks when they have NO idea what to do!!!! If it was only in money markets or treasury equavalents, they would never have what they would under Social Security. Hard to beat Social Secuity for its simpilicity. yet takes all into consideration regardless of investment know how!! |
As I remember, SS was established as a supplement and never as a retirement plan. Over the years it has transitioned to a retirement plan and now millions have it as their only income...while more millions make significant returns on their investments and still continue to take SS. I have counseled my kids to make sure they control their future, SS may be a supplement but if they count on it they will disappointed and don't expect me to chip in. I find it interesting that we (yes I include me in that we) get slightly crazy when Uncle talks about increasing taxes or redistributing wealth or providing more assistance yet when they talk about taking SS from those that really don't need it (means testing) we get just as crazy because now they are talking about us. End of rant.
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How do you determine who needs social security ? How do you take back something that they have paid into for years ? Yes, I get a bit crazy...not for the reasons you mention, which are ALWAYS the standard phrases used by a certain p group to justify the assistance programs, etc. I DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ABOUT TAKING SOCIAL SECURITY which seems to be the intent of this thread and a few others on the same exact subject with the same posters. This is a different age and thus the question is basically ludicrous ! When it was proposed by Bush...albeit invest a percentage if you wanted to...he was laughed off the podium. Quotes supplied upon request. |
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Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration (SSA), told VICE News that an estimated 7 million people are currently working in the US illegally. Of those, he estimates that about 3.1 million are using fake or expired social security numbers, yet also paying automatic payroll taxes. Goss believes that these workers pay an annual net contribution of $12 billion to the Social Security Trust Fund. The SSA estimates that unauthorized workers have paid a whopping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Yet as these people are in the US illegally, it is unlikely that they will be able to benefit from their contributions later in life. Our social security system is fortunate that the illegals are helping the fund with their contributions. Where would we be without their support? |
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I would like to ask a general question of those who seem to be badgering and criticizing social security recepients.
WHY ? What motivation do you have to attack those who receive social security or make them feel guilty for receiving ? Is it to deflect the other spending done by the government that you support ? Is it to defend some other policy ? I ask, because it makes absolutely no sense to me why I, or any other recepient should feel guilty in anyway at all. I paid and was told I could not work unless I paid. I had very few other investment opportunities as most of them did not exist at that time. I have no idea if I am collecting more than I put in the system as the government has screwed up the accounting of SS so bad it is hard to determine a lot of things about the program. Is this because if you collect SS, you should not be allowed to criticize all the other entitlements gained by NOT working ? I just do not understand it. The OP, to my knowledge, was a government employee thus never paid into the system so I just do not get the motitvations. Thank you |
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Without question, I would have opted in.
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I will probably mess this up, but here goes since my thoughts are sometimes hard to put to paper.
As someone else stated, you either paid into SS in order to work or you couldn't work (with the exception of a few jobs, RR for instance). Someone else pointed out that there were not other choices available for investment. I can remember when only those with thousands to invest were able to do so. As for SS being "unfunded", I don't understand that. It is very much funded to this day since the rules remain the same. It was established as a "Trust Fund", which meant that it was to remain separate. That got changed so that those funds ended up being spent via the General Fund. Another way it is funded is by those who die before age 62 and have no spouse eligible to draw as a widow or no dependent children under 18 or disabled. My brother was still working at 65, never took any of his, and died suddenly. This happens all the time. Unfortunately, many die just prior to age 62. Now, to the so-called means testing. How would that be had we been able to do our own fund that we faithfully paid into along with contributions from our employer(s)? I sure wouldn't go for that! Yes, SS was supposed to "supplement" our retirement. Fortunately, for many of us, retirement plans were available to us. No way could we make it on our SS alone. Since SS is based on earnings, wages were not what they are today, and wages also have to do with demographics. The more you make, the greater your contribution. That's just the way it is. And, no, I do not feel "guilty" for drawing SS, anymore than I would feel guilty about taking anything else I paid into. It is not the fault of us that this fund has been changed from its original intent. Retirement funds are set up the same way.....you draw until you die, even if it exceeds your contributions. The holders of these are just gambling that you and/or your beneficiary will die sooner rather than later. |
if this or that does not exist. be real. it works for most people. yes the gov. took a lot of money from the fund. deal with it and make the fuss with those that did it. call your political leaders and complain.
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I still do not get the chronic postings on this subject and what is the point. Folks who never contributed keep alluding to other government programs and trying to relate SS to those and I just cannot understand it. And they never explain, except for the inane comment about not complaining when you get your SS payment as if that had anything to do with other government entitlements that we ALSO pay for. |
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My kids hate the concept of SS as do most of their friends that I have met. They aren't against forced retirement plans but believe that the money they pay into SS should be put into a private plan, that they can't touch, and allows them input into it's direction. In that scenario, they would be getting the money they put into it and not depend on the money the generation behind them is putting into a government plan. At some point the system will need to change, as more take advantage of the entitlements programs there will be less money going into SS which is why today's generation have no faith in SS being available to them. They understand the funding solutions (or for those of us from the business side like to call it.....revenue streams) will have to come from somewhere and Uncles only source is us.....more taxes, different taxes, surcharges, fees etc. They will continue to fund and add programs.....and we will continue to defend those that benefit us and vilify most of those that don't but either way, we pay. |
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"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) was extremely pleased with President Bush's latest revelation that his biggest failure in office was not passing Social Security reform, telling reporters on Friday that it was a great Democratic triumph that the party managed to block him. "As one of the leaders who led the effort to disappoint him, I am very pleased that he is admitting he was trying to do that," she said during the call, joined by Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.). "That it was his high priority. We defeated him then in his trying to privatize Social Security, we will do it again. Republicans are trying to do it in their budget. The three independent reports conclude that if Republicans succeeded in privatizing Social Security, benefits for America's seniors would be cut [and] Wall Street would have made billions." Nancy Pelosi Responds To President Bush On Social Security: We're Very 'Pleased' He Is Disappointed He was even ridiculed and all the leaders said there was no problem Let me explain....my retorts are to those who somehow, for some reason tie SS with other entitlements. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME IN ANYWAY, and tying them together makes no sense And refer your children to this site....the SSA does employ top actuaries to insure the program is run correctly. Office of the Chief Actuary -- Home Page |
Could we please not refer to SS as an "entitlement"? I know that this is what the powers-that-be choose to tell us.
To me, it is not an entitlement nor a benefit. It is the same as any other insurance. Workman's Comp. and Unemployment Insurance are both paid for by employers....no choice for them, either, just the same as their forced SS matches. Remember, too, it is not just the individuals who pay into SS, but their employers as well. Thanks. |
[QUOTE=dillywho;1000315]Could we please not refer to SS as an "entitlement"?
...but it IS an entitlement. You paid a percentage of your salary into Social Security as did your employer and now, you are ENTITLED to getting your benefits. |
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If you are financially savvy at an early age and opted for your own investment strategy you would be one of a very few. Based on the performance of my professionally managed IRA over the past 15 years, it has been a roller coaster ride with every up and down of the market. Ask anyone who has an IRA. In addition to market fluctuations you have to be alert to the integrity, or lack thereof, of your investment advisor. Ask around. In Northeast Ohio we had several who caused more than a few folks to have to return to work.
Regardless of your political philosophy I've found even the most conservative people happy for the monthly SS check. "A government of the people, by the people and for the people.." A. Lincoln |
Facts---
As of 2014 there is $2.6 trillion in the Social Security Trust Fund. Funds are invested in US Govt Bonds(arguably the safest investment in the world). The fund earns (goes back to the Fund) about $99billion a year from interest on the bonds. If the Feds did not borrow from the Fund , they would borrow it from others at probably the same annual interest cost. So in a way all taxpayers even those now retired are contributing to the fund(interest on the debt) You can argue that the Feds borrow too much but they have not in fact stolen from the Fund. |
This entire thread, begun by a person who does not nor ever did contribute to SS, and that is based on his posts, is just a P stunt. This particular thought process has been on TOTV before by the same cast of posters.
I keep asking WHY the threads, every time, and yet to get a response. |
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First, I have paid into Social Security and I do get a Social Security retirement check. The question of opting in or out of Social Security was based upon a conversation over a couple of Dewar's White Label's with a friend. He was under the thought that most people would opt-out and plan their own retirement future. I thought that most young people do not think retirement until their mid-40's and then it is too late to start from zero. I said that the safety net of a Social Security retirement check in addition to 401k's and other investments was needed. He said the 7 percent deduction could have made so much more money that it would not be needed as a safety net. No, there was no political bent to my post. It was a legit question asking for opinions. |
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If I was in error, I apologize sincerely. Secondly, I KNOW you began threads on this and for reasons YOU will understand I will stay away from discussing those, and they all were around the same issue. |
I gained little insight over the years and of course my own opinion and tried to stay out of it but some posts PMO.
The fed gov has had several retire plans over the years. And as usual the higher the pay grade the better the benefits/entitlements (just look at congress and staff) which they enact and some trickled down. When there are reforms it's always the masses the take the hit! why that's where they can say they saved the taxpayer lots of money. The hard working core that actually has job that have to produce and don't go on long lunches, dream up meeting at resorts, or come in late and leave early (so if you are higher paid grade (what even that means to you) and you did not skate, I salute you). The working mass has schedule to the minute, not on so called flex time honor system. Fed retirement funds can't be compared to SS. Plus the fed retirement system changed in 80's which now all federal employee pay into SS and are entitled to it plus their Furs retirement plan No different than any other employee at company with option investment fund. Now SS. if all the fleabags didn't get SS before eligible retirement age (with Good lawyer and Doctor( let you determine what I consider good) there would be plenty of money for congress to rob and plenty of money for retirees. But, with all the things over the years tacked into SS like SSI, disability, money or kids who knows what else ect.. which IMO should have nothing to do with SS retirement fund but should be separate official entitlement funded up front so we see how much it's costing. I worked 48 years in the pits watching what goes on in Management both privately and for the what some call the entitled Fed Gov. I earned every Dollar I got paid and every Dollar I will receive for my 40 years of service. For those of you that Feel you didn't earn it or feel your so rich and smart, then man up and don't take it. And for the ones that don't get it cause you company had other retirement funded program that got you out of paying in, you had choice just like me and others, you have no skin in the game. For the ones that going to say that was your choice. Yes, I took the good with the bad and now I earned my entitlement as some call it. Burning some bridges, but I have good row boat and thick skin I developed over the years and of course my own opinion which will not change. So go ahead and waste your breath. |
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As you say, you earned it. That's all that matters. I look at it the same way. |
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