Billionaire sees massive problem caused by aging, and here's my question
 

Can you give some (non-political) ideas on how to solve this problem?

I'll start the discussion with this suggestion: One idea might be called "tough love". No more useless medical procedures for lifestyle diseases such as heart bypass operations for coronary artery disease. This is a huge expense and is only one of many. Hundreds of billions of dollars are spent every year for diseases that are caused by poor lifestyle choices.

By not doing heart bypass operations for many people with clogged arteries, you'll solve the aging population "problem" by sentencing them die within a couple of weeks. Very efficient method.

Birth rate is the other factor involved. Obviously the baby boomer parents reproduced much more and faster than now.

Does anyone really think the media, Hollywood and Washington are going to campaign for young people to have more babies so there are once again 6 working taxpayers supporting each SS and medicare beneficiary, instead of 2???

I certainly don't think so.

VPL: Perhaps I misunderstand your post but are you advocating death panels?

Do you really believe a heart bypass is a useless medical procedure?

Perhaps you accidentally omitted a key phrase when you keyboarded your post?

Personal Best Regards:

Soylent green seems to work pretty good...

Do you really think people will choose to die if heart bypass operations are no longer provided by Medicare? Currently, Medicare pays for Dr. Dean Ornish's lifestyle program to reverse coronary artery disease. They pay for it because it works. And the cost is only a small fraction of what it costs for bypass surgery. But it's not well known and it's not widely available across the U.S.

Some serious welfare reform and doing away with many, many ineffective, costly and wasteful programs such as Head Start would allow for tax money to be spent on (actually returned to) those who need and deserve it such as productive folks who worked hard for many, many years, paid their taxes, and now look forward to enjoying a retirement they have earned, complete with adequate medical care.

Well, that's another subject, in my opinion. There were so called "death panels" long before anyone started calling them death panels. Only it was done by hospitals. If an older person wanted an operation, they had to prove to the hospital, through testing, that they had a good chance for a favorable outcome. This is because hospitals didn't want too many failed operations on their record.

What I'm advocating is a choice where the patient's life is in his own hands. Call it personal responsibility if you like. And Medicare can help by paying for classes to teach people how to accomplish a favorable lifestyle outcome.

Not the way things are now, no. The way it is now people depend on bypass procedures to save them from themselves. But we can't afford that anymore.

I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm just trying my best to start people thinking.

Best regards back to you.

Many people do not have TIME to do the "lifestyle program" when they're in the ER having, or are about to have, a heart attack.

How would "they" determine whether you lead a healthy lifestyle? Many people have diseases that are hereditary, or just happen. Some bodies naturally make more cholesterol than others, people wtih healthy lifestyles get cancer. Who decides what the guidelines are? And I don't know whether people who haven't made good choices to start with would be good candidates for reform. How many people with lung diseases, or COPD, etc., continue to smoke?

Bypass operations certainly not useless
 

As one who had five bypasses about five years ago, I wouldn't call this a useless medical procedure. I have two younger brothers and both had similar medical procedures. Of course, none have lived a perfect lifestyle but I can say all three of us were above the average.

VP, the Billionaire you reference, who is he/she. Could he/she be wrong? :ho:

Stan Druckenmiller
Stan Druckenmiller Sees

I am 77- had heart triple by pass at 66.At the time was quite slim, ran 20mi plus a week, played golf, private pilot. did not drink alcohol , never smoked. My disease is hereditary. Would you proposing that I should have had a death sentence??

Hmmmmmmmmmmmn!

Let us not forget that this "person" is a BILLIONAIRE!

Which, of course, means he/she will advocate this for you and I but can go anywhere with that kind of wealth and have these procedures.

Do as I say and not as I do !!!!

Yes! That is what he is saying. OP refuses to believe any disease cannot be prevented or cured with anything other than plants. And any disease you get is your fault. It's a narrow-minded, uninformed view in my opinion.

We had a friend just like you, Challenger, whose body produced so much cholesterol he had a heart attack in his 30s despite being a runner & non smoker. This was before the benefits of statins. He was reduced to eating 0 cholesterol in his diet, and his body still manufactured high rates of cholesterol. he's alive today (67) andis able to eat more naturally thanks to statins.

That's very true as that's how things work currently. But what about the stories of people waiting on a gurney with chest pains. They often keep them waiting until a bed is available and plan to do testing the following day. Someone told that story not to long ago. Was that person in danger of dying in the hospital hallway? No, I don't think so. They can give medication and stabilize the person until such time as testing can be done to see exactly what's going on. If the person came in with a heart attack in progress it might be a different story. I'm not making any judgment on that at this time.

I don't consider myself an expert and I don't claim to have all the answers, I'm just going by what I have heard and read.

It has been said that cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease, at least not by itself. Cholesterol in the blood has to be oxidized by free radicals to create "toxic LDL". This supposedly wouldn't happen with a diet high in antioxidants, which would likely be the opposite of a high protein diet. As an anecdote, I had a neighbor in The Villages who said her total cholesterol had been up to 300 for years and she had no sign of heart disease.

As far as degenerative diseases being hereditary, sometimes they appear to be but what is often inherited are poor lifestyle habits. People often follow family traditions and habits. In another discussion, not to long ago, I proved that genes can be turned on and off. "Genes are not our destiny." (From the book "The Biology of Belief" by Bruce Lipton.)

Here's a link to an interesting article about a genetic fault in an Italian family. Despite a high fat diet and high cholesterol, they have a specific gene that overcomes the effect of the cholesterol.
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-10-...artery-disease

Villages Pl - from what I know of you and your posts I think I can safely assume you live a perfectly healthy lifestyle - so, I'm curious if this didn't produce the results you expect and you need a bypass are you going to turn it down because you obviously didn't do something right? I think there are a whole lot of other areas where the personal responsibility you speak of might make a huge difference in what funds were available for folks that have worked hard all their lives and may need some medical help in their older years. Maybe it's time to lighten up and live and let live.

Could you validate these strange statements?

I think you don't really understand the basics of genetics. It is very complex.

And read this about Bruce Lipton. https://www.metabunk.org/threads/deb...f-belief.1003/

Get back to us when you need a bypass and we can discuss it.

Every time I think health-related topics can't get any sillier...

Your request and comment are on target for the poster. I think the poster comes up with pseudo-scientific sounding articles that he believes support his position. Faced with a question he doesn't understand or like, he deflects by raising another topic or by responding to your question with a question.

It's feels like that hidden agenda is already in place. I see women's reproductive rights being stripped away each year. Until this moment, it really had not dawned on me that this just might be the unspoken reason. Hmmmm

What happened to the original first question with the link to the rich guy?

Also, fourteen people messaged me that I missed a whole discussion about britches or bloomers that was deleted. Boy you can't even go out to dinner around here or you'll miss something good.

I was part of that. In fact, it was my britches being discussed. :pepper2: I didn't think I could get away with saying pompous :cus:, but I had to try. Let me know when you are going out and I will go off line til you get back.

I took a friend to Tampa on Tuesday. Boy did I miss some exciting posts. I know what you mean

Yep. Censored.


:cus::cus::cus::cus::cus:

See post #11. I don't think OP ever gave a link to the article, but I googled billionaire sees, blah, blah, blah, and it came right up. My guess is that OP didn't give the link because the billionaire's point was not about health, but about finances. OP was using it as a springboard back into his own agenda.

One oh the OPs typical ploys.

Pompous :cus: is much too mild.
Someone who advocates withholding medical procedures from a patient who hasn't followed his "anointed" diet is beneath contempt.

It's certainly indicative of a lack of regard for humanity.

Does "tough love" include no more second trips to the buffet at Golden Corral or the Casino?

He has never said this or implied this, but I find this mentality very frightening. is there an age when medical treatment is withheld because you don't have enough years left to justify the financial drain on society or whatever you have is incurable.Let me repeat, no one on this forum has suggesteD this.

There are many medical procedures that some believe are not necessary that could save millions of dollars. However, who is going to determine what procedure is necessary and what is not? Most think it should be YOUR DOCTOR and it would be difficult to argue different. For example, millions are spent to keep Cancer patients alive when there is little chance of recovery. Statistically this can be proven.

It's complicated with no easy answers IMHO and I might add---a very slippery slope.

Really?
From the opening post:
"I'll start the discussion with this suggestion: One idea might be called "tough love". No more useless medical procedures for lifestyle diseases such as heart bypass operations for coronary artery disease. This is a huge expense and is only one of many. Hundreds of billions of dollars are spent every year for diseases that are caused by poor lifestyle choices."

Just what is it that you think he is suggesting?

Here's a link with the story:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/stan-d...QDBHNlYwNzcg--

I don't know much about him, only that he sees a massive problem coming in 15 years.

Could he be wrong? I suppose so.

I never heard of anyone having 5 bypass operations. Was that over a 5 year period? Or 10 years? More? And I wonder if your doctor had any suggestions other than doing the operation over and over. Were you ever asked about diet, exercise and stress control? Did the doctor say it's genetic?

Dr. Dean Ornish stated in one of his books that some people are born with lots of cholesterol receptors and some are born with only a few. If a person has many receptors then processing dietary cholesterol is quicker and more efficient. Few receptors could cause high blood cholesterol. In that case, where there are few receptors and high cholesterol, a much more careful diet would be required. Also, stress can be a factor so he recommends stress control and moderate exercise.

Have you gotten to the point where you don't expect you will need anymore bypass operations? If so, what has changed to bring that about?

You are correct. I guess I couldn't believe a human being would say such a thing so I couldnt see the words. That is exactly what he said and believes. Tough love my behind. Arrogant, pompous.

It has been 11 years since your bypass operation and you are doing well I hope. If it's genetic and beyond your control, how did you manage to survive for 11 years without your arteries clogging up again?

66-11=55. He has 55 more years before he'll need another bypass....

So this dr can open up a 100% occluded LAD. Instead of a bypass.