Palin & the Librarian
 

I debated about whether or not to throw this link to the Palin and the library story in here. But considering that some of us (including me) have made our own opinions on censorship, and the gray areas thereof, known here on TOTV recently, I thought this link might be of interest.

So far nobody has any proof that books chosen for the Public Library were actually pulled from the shelves. You know the shelves I mean. The shelves in the Public, that would be the Public Library. The Public Library with the selection policy in place to guide the choosing of books for the public. The Public Library staffed with librarians who know how to make all those book selection decisions because they went to school to study up on how. And why. And why not.

So far, the librarian directly involved is not talking to the press.

But what if this alleged conversation actually took place?

What if Palin actually asked the Public Librarian what her response would be if asked by the administration to remove books?

And what if Palin really did interpret such a loaded question as nothing more than a discussion matter about following the administrative agenda?

If it is indeed all true, can we really accept this thing as innocuous? You know, like when Jimmy Carter admitted to lusting in his heart.

My mama always said to never talk about anybody else's kids because you just never know what your own might do. And I have no intention of talking about Palin's kids. Ever.

But if Palin thought she was entitled to censor the Public Library because she was the mayor of the town, well, that one. . . I plan to talk about.

But for right now, I am putting this link to the Anchorage paper here for you. Just as a public service you understand. Not looking for a fight. Just reporting the news from Anchorage. Not sure how this paper spins things.

And I sure don't envy that librarian. She is on vacation right now. Today -- Vacation. Tomorrow -- Maybe the cover of Time.

http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515512.html

Boomer

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

First of all, I would be upset if the "rumors" and sudden outcry is found to be true. My question for you and others is if this incident with not much of a "money trail" is legitimate to discuss and to be something that will decide your vote, WHY THEN IS NOT QUESTIONS ABOUT the Presidential candidate actions and associations 12 years ago a subject of discussion ?

Again, on this issue I would be here supporting you !

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

My mind has already been made up on this woman and this ticket. Whether it's true or not really doesn't matter to me. It should matter to undecideds. "A test of loyalty" certainly wouldn't cut it with me. More smoke and mirrors. That in itself is despicable.

Yes, this is a fair question and/or discussion. It shows the mindset of Palin. If it is true, she certainly does have a record (under investigation) of getting rid of people in a very lowhanded way. I'm telling you, IMHO, no matter how the RNC tries to spin this entire ticket, it just doesn't add up.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Just wondering , is this what they teach in journalism school?
" wether it's true or not doesn't matter to me" or" It shows the mindset of Palin if it is true".. Those are big IF"S sounds fair and balanced to me. Benj

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Benj, I'm not speaking as a journalist. I'm speaking as a voter. As I've stated in several posts, my mind is already made up. So is yours apparently.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

If she really was considering censorship, it truly bothers me. It goes along with the abstinance sex ed issue to me -- a little too small town, not realistic values for today's world and issues. I sincerely hope this is a lot of innuendo and rumors and that the question was truly rhetorical and not (1) a way to promote book censorship and (2) an excuse to get rid of someone who didn't support her initially (even though a "loyalty" test was passed).

Of course, the concept of a loyalty test for public employees nauseates me. Reminds me too much of the Nazi oaths required pre-WWII in Germany.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

It is interesting to note that when Gov Palin was doing whatever she did, Sen Obama was up to his old tricks it seems.

The attached link is a story that was put forward by CBS during the primary and the timing seems to be about the same time. The story is basically the same as today...he was trying to hide his radical extremism.....and of course when the survey he completed came out, he said he had nothing to do with it and nver saw it (although in his handwriting)...it showed him to be much more extreme and radical as he was running for the state senate in Illinois.

The Clintons had this...was one of the reasons that they said he could not be elected...I still have hope that the press will get this stuff out before the election. As I said somewhere earlier...Michelle Obama slipped up a bit in her speech and quoted Saul Alinsky !

Anyway that is what he was doing at the same time !


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n3981093.shtml

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Bucco, I understand you wanting to put this up as a distraction, but what are your views on this censorship allegation against Palin?

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Bucco, I understand you wanting to put this up as a distraction, but what are your views on this censorship allegation against Palin?
__________________________________________________ __________

I have said more than once on this thread that I dont in any way support any kind of censorship and that it would be upsetting. Having read the article posted and a few others, it seems to be a non story, although many great scandals began that way :).

My point was not to distract but point out and ask..why are we not as concerned at least about electing a president who is a radical liberal. That does not get the attention that this library story from 12 years ago does. I found it ironic that TWELVE years ago Sen Obama was saying it really wasnt him as he does today.

Perhaps the wrong thread to make the point and for that I guess I am sorry,,,but I told you a few times....you dispute anything I am saying...any of it....and I will be a Sen Obama supporter because he seems to be a nice guy, a great orator, etc but his idealogy is RADICAL !

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

chels
If we are opening comments up on allegations things could get really ugly. Benj

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

I wonder which books these were that then Mayor Palin found objectionable? There are a lot of books that public libraries will not buy because of the community served and its values. These values vary from one community to another though. What is good in Manhatten might be quite objectionable in a small town in rural Alaska.

Would you want your grandkids for instance viewing DVDs of Sex and the City?

Banning Harry Potter books is one thing but there are a lot of items that public librarians would be very loath to put on their stacks.

It is politically correct among librarians to fight against censorship against certain books but there are a lot of books which are too hot for even them to put on their stacks.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

But who is it to say what is ok and what is not....isn't it a parents job to dictate what a children can and can not see or read?

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Benj, I'm sticking to the thread an asking about the censorship allegations against Palin. Read EVERY word, please.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

You are half right about parents Cassie325. There are books though that are censored all the time from libraries by librarians. Would you be OK for instance with a copy of the Kama Sutra being available to check out for anyone at the Villages Public Library??

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Perhaps then a 18+ area? Never thought about it that way...thanks! However...there are movies, music and other media types that have regulating rules about them....perhaps books should have the same thing...??

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Most public libraries that I have been in have their own set of unwritten rules about what kind of books they will put out on the shelf and I do believe that local community values play a big part in these unwritten rules.

The books and DVDs I found at the Minneapolis Public Library for instance are quite different from what I would find at the Villages Public Library.

For instance, I have found very few public libraries which have Playboy in their stacks. Some do but very few.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

So many good points have been said. What books are you talking about? That in itself would make a HUGE difference.

I am sure the far left will dig into this and probably if it is not a 'true' story they will 'make' it a big spin. But what about all of the inunedos about Obama and Biden (heard his sons are in big financial problems) the far left media...doesn't touch any of it and they won't because they are so pro Democratic.

Why is everyone trying to compare Palin and Obama? One is running for VP and the other Pres. The reason I hear is that McCain is old and she might become Pres within the next four years. As one add about Cancer on the television says there is 'no experation date' . Who are we to say that McCain won't be able to finish his term? Everyone has known of a young healty person come to an early untimely natural death.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

chels

When there were "allegations "that Obama was muslim you guys went nuts about the unfairness of it all, But you choose allegations about reps as fair to discuss. Benj

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

The librarian's reply stated the books in the library were all part of a national selection criteria, so that would imply there already was a form of censorship as to what books are there. There was no mention of what books Palin might have an objection to. As a matter of fact, supposedly Palin never mentioned exactly what books she might object to, just that if she objected to certain books would they be removed.

I don't like censorship but do understand the need. I certainly wouldn't want X-rated books (like "Dial H for Hotel" -- my introduction to porn when I was about 10 [my brother's book]} to be available for kids to check out. At the same time, censorship has caused books like the Tropic of Cancer to be banned throughout the US when it was first published. I like even less the idea that an elected official would even consider having books banned because they don't fit his/her moral standards. Fortunately, so far as we know, Palin never acted on this question. Hopefully, she never will.

As to Biden and his family, I stand with it ain't none of my bizwhacks. Neither is any of the stuff about Palin's family unless she chooses to make it public and is willing to discuss it. Even then, I doubt I will sit and listen to the comments.

Palin stands a good chance of becoming President within 4 years if not sooner if McCain wins. While 72 is not really all that old by today's standards, being a POW has to have affected him physically and I'd be very surprised if his body really isn't that of a much older man due to the abuse and deprivation. Melanomas are notorious for coming back. Worse yet, melanoma patients have an 80% chance of getting a tumor-based cancer in another part of their body within 10 years of the original cancer. Being POTUS is very stressful -- it ages even the youngest and healthiest men. What will it do to a 72 YO man with a history of cancer and deprivation in his youth? He is at higher risk for dying in office than Obama (barring an accident or assination).

The Republicans have made a big deal of Obama's lack of experience, something which all of us should factor in when we vote. I think the reason for the comparison between Palin and Obama is the hypocrisy of the Republican bigwigs (although it is fun to listen them try to back track and eat their past words). The lack of experience of both people should be a consideration. Not the only, but certainly one.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Cassie I don't totally subscribe to it's only a parents responsibility. I think we all have responsibility to do no harm to children. There are a wide range material and activities that are not appropriate for children and require more than a parental responsibility to control i.e. it takes librains, teachers, babysitters, neighbors, judges etc to abide by laws and often go further by use of judgement based on individual values. Seems like the judgement safest for children is a more conservative approach when the possibility of harm exists. Its a bit comparable to wearing a helmet or a seat belt. The methods to protect children do not need to be a restriction for adults.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Lil Dancer,


Here you are on totv.


NOW WOULD BE A GREAT TIME FOR YOU TO APOLOGIZE TO ME FOR THE LIES YOU POSTED ABOUT ME.

PLEASE HAVE THE MORAL FORTITUDE TO ADMIT YOUR LIES AND SAY YOU ARE SORRY.
ON THIS FORUM IN PUBLIC WHERE YOU SLANDERED ME....BENJ

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Looks like Wasilla is a suburb of Anchorage, Alaska. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasilla,_Alaska This is where Palin was Mayor.

I would hope that a public library director in that area would be a little more urbane with her choices of what she has available than someone in a more rural area of Alaska.

I do find this troubling if Palin as a Mayor tried to put pressure on a public librarian in an area where the parents should be more aware of what may be out their which their kids might get a hold of at some time.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Bernie...while I do agree in a sense that it "takes a village" to raise a child or rather protect them...ultimately it is the parents responsibility. All of those people....teachers, babysitters, neighbors etc, etc....are very important to a child's life....however as a parent....if any of them are inappropriate or just not good for or to my child...then ULTIMATELY...it is MY job to make sure they are good...and appropriate for MY child.

I would not consider this to be onlong the same lines as wearing a seat belt or bike helmet....those are laws! For everyone....not just children. They are put there to protect ALL humans....

A book should not be removed just because one type of person disagrees with it. If it is adult oriented then it should be placed in an adult only section or mature eyes section. Libraries now a days are very high tech and can easily check the age of someone checking out a specific book.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

A voice of reason. Parents have a great deal of responsibility for what their children read, and watch on TV and in movie theatres. But others also have a responsibility, as Bernie pointed out. That is why some movies are designated as not suitable for children.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

When I started this thread, I really did want it to be a discussion point and something to watch for those who are interested. It's about a lot more than just an election. And like I said, considering the rancor in the ranks over censorship this past week, right here on TOTV, I really did think it was well worth posting, for many, many, oh so many reasons.

Tal knows a lot about libraries. I think he may have an MLS. Not sure. But I think so.

The books in Public Libraries are selected by librarians with masters degrees. The Master of Library Science degree is now more often known as the MLIS. Master of Library and Information Science. With so much computer based info now, the curriculum has changed for those graduate programs.

And you really need to know that overall, librarians self-censor. They want to keep their jobs. They know the lay of the land for their libraries. Librarians who know what they are doing have a written selection policy in place. And librarians who know what they are doing have in place a protocol to follow if a book is demanded banned. People cannot just walk into a Public Library and demand books be removed.

The Public Library is a Bastion of Freedom.

And most of your Public Librarians have a major clue, especially if they are doing book selection. You hire them for what they know how to do. You hire good ones and you let them do their jobs.

I am waiting to see if Palin, elected under a democracy, thought she had the right, due to her position, to ban books.

I have to finish cleaning my house for company coming tonight. (I hope we don't talk about politics.) But anyway, I can't look this up right now. Really must go make a path for company. But I am hoping somebody will post it here. (Uh oh, sorry Tal, I just sounded like I was trying to give you homework or something. :) )

You know, there is a saying, "If you absolutely have to know, ask a librarian." Does not mean they know everything. Just means they know where to find it.

I will look this up another day if nobody finds it first and posts it. I really need to go clean. But here is what I hope to have posted here:

There are lists out there somewhere. The lists of books that have actually been banned in some places. If you have never seen these lists,you might be surprised.

One I remember seeing on a list, maybe it was for a children's library, was "The American Heritage Dictionary." I think that was the one. It might have had dirty words in it. Maybe even a picture or two. You know, human body stuff maybe.

Another one that you grandmas who read to the kids will appreciate is one of Shel Siverstein's funny poetry books. It might have been "Where the Sidewalk Ends." It's the one with the poem "Who Ate the Baby" laughing about that old sibling rivalry thing when the new baby comes home. Well, those who wanted it banned said that it promoted cannibalism.

So this thing is indeed a slippery slope. A slippery, slippery slope.

Public librarians are a lot like teachers. Hire good smart ones with common sense and let them do their jobs. And Freedom will continue its reign.

I sure hope that list of books shows up here. And I sure hope you will talk about it. And enjoy the discussion. I would love to stay here with you and talk all day about books and freedom and all that good American stuff. But I can't right now. But true to my last name, I will "be back."

Boomer, sounding a little like Marian today

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

The list of books that I was given came from the minutes of the Wasilla Library Board. What I found "amusing" was that a number of them are included in elementary, middle school, and high school curriculums across the United States. That list includes A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle, Huckleberry Finn by Mark Twain, I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings by Maya Angelou, The Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger, and To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

This contains some of the books banned from libraries. http://title.forbiddenlibrary.com/

Boomer you are right that I have a M.L.S. which is a Masters of Librarianship and Information Management. It is from University of Denver. Same University that Condoleezza Rice received two of her degrees from. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Tal,

Thank you. That is one heckuva list. I knew you would know where to find it.

Now, could somebody please come here and help me clean my house? There is company 'round the bend.

Thanks again, Tal.

I gotta get away from this screen. Iwas back here just to dust it. Yeah, that's it.

Boomer

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

I am not disagreeing about certain books not being suitable for children! I am just saying they shouldn't be bained from a library....they should be moved to a seperate area and should be monitored as to who is borrowing them...at least their age...

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Tal, I sat on the Souderton Area School Board during the entire "The Color Purple" debacle mentioned in your link. We did not ban the book "The Color Purple". This book was on a required reading list for our 10th graders. We had it removed from the required reading list but not banned from the high school library.
The SASD was a predominantly white school district in 1992. For many of our students, this book would have been their first look into the lives of African American families. I personally felt the book was a poor representation of the African American community as a whole. Kids at that age are so terribly impressionable. It dealt with incest and brutality. IMHO "To Kill A Mockingbird" was a better choice. I enjoined the NAACP to help me in my quest to remove the book from the sophomore required reading list. This book was not banned from our school library. It was simply replaced on the required reading list but remained as an optional selection .
That book was not banned. Your article is incorrect regarding SASD and The Color Purple.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

At one time the far religious right asked our public school system here in West Chester Ohio to remove the same list, the same books from their library shelves. Fortunately there was a huge hue and cry from informed peopleand it didn't happen. What a fuss it was. I hate, loathe, and despise this kind of censorship.

If this is true about Palin. We are done.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Besides this issue of what books she tried to ban, (I abhor censorship) is the fact that she was threatening the librarian if she did not do this. When there was a public outcry, Palin backed off and said it was just a "test of loyalty." What's that all about? Does anyone believe her. I for one do not! Seems as if George Orwell was just a shade off on 1984, should be 2008. It's sad.

Unfortunately we're not getting these answers from Palin. Again, can't wait for the debates.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

I have got to get out of here. This thing is in my kitchen. GG I watched that one happen.

And

Sam,

What you are saying here about schools and required reading lists and your experience -- well I just have to comment on that and then I really will go clean some more.

What your board did I believe is excellent. You made it "optional" and you left it in the library. That is the perfect solution, in my book anyway, for how to handle things for school reading. Parents should have the right to make decisions for and with their own child. But not everybody else's.

I watched a censorship thing many years ago over "Of Mice and Men." I am a big fan of Steinbeck. Anyway, those who wanted the book banned just kept calling it "the cuss book." That's all they had to say. I almost began to feel sorry for them. "Of Mice and Men" stayed in the curriculum. The English teacher who did the defense was eloquent.

Sam, you did it right, girl. That's how it should be in a school. Choice. Not required. They don't want to read "Of Mice and Men, give them a choice. Maybe "The Red Pony." Still Steinbeck. But the horse did not cuss as I recall.

Boomer, still sounding a whole lot like Marian today :read:

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Tried to post this earlier, will try again

http://fightthepalinsmears.com/smear...red-librarian/

[Tony replaced full text with this link.]

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Thanks, Boomer. I'm just shocked that sources on the internet says we banned the book.
If you have read the book, you know it is raw. I personally thought it was an incredible book. The SASD community was heavily Mennonite in 1992. The children of our community were still fairly sheltered during that time. I felt making the book optional gave our parents some control over what their children were exposed to in the classroom.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

drr47 (Sigh) I'll say it one more time, Sarah Palin didn't fire the librarian, she THREATENED to fire the librarian, but back down due to public outcry.

Amongst this list of books are many I would want my children to read. Book banning is disgusting I don't care how you try to spin it.

I'm sure your demand to Senator Obama would be taken somewhat into consideration, if all The Republican sites decided to take off their numerous lies about him and his family.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

From everything I could find, Palin never had a list per se. She asked that IF she wanted a book banned, would the librarian accede to her wishes. There was no mention of any specific book. So, why is this very old, outdated list even being published here (with a few new books added)? I remember seeing it when I was in school. Of course, I promptly got every book on the list and read it. About the only thing I really learned was that I didn't like Faulkner, D.H. Laurence liked women and I loved Steinbeck.

I remember reading Fahrenheit 451 and literally crying. The idea of burning a book just sickens me. Heck, I can't even dog ear a corner without feeling guilty. Tell me I can't read a book and I'll bet it will be in my hot little paws that same day and finished that night. I would probably be more willing to fight to the death the right to read what you want than any other freedom.

As I said previously, I sincerely hope that Paln's question was rhetorical. Unless and until we hear specifically from the librarian that Palin did in fact give her a list or that Palin admits that there were specific books she was considering having banned, this is an issue that should be put to the side. It is an important issue but we don't have enough facts to know what is true at this point.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

I respect your opinions Chelsea, Sam, Redwitch and Boomer. I love your open and intelligent minds.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

A couple aspects of this book banning kerfluffle seem to stick out above the partisan politics, the intrinsic fear of censorship, and the general chaos associated with anything in this forum of late.

I'm taking my impressions of the event from the newspaper article initially cited. May be wrong, but I got the impression that Palin asked the Librarian if there were procedures by which one (citizen, public official, anyone) could get books removed from the stack/list and if the city government under which the library worked could overrule the Librarian. I don't see where Palin or anyone else demanded that specific books be removed. I interpreted this as a exercise in determining boundaries.

Regarding Palin asking for the resignation of a number of city employees when she took office, I see no issue. Per the article, these people were all hired by her predecessor and some campaigned for him. Evidently, the jobs were not civil service but were patronage positions. Any new administration wants its own people in key suppport positions. Does a new president carry the cabinet of his predecessor, even of the same party? Loyalty test? No, I took that as the basic "Are you going to do your job and carry out the programs of the new administration or are you going to sabotage our efforts to make me look bad?"

Now regarding censorship --- this is more philosophical in nature. Everyone recoils at the thought on censorship, evoking images on Nazi book burnings, Fahrenheit 451, and those terribly serious movies of the 50's & 60's that had the small town power figure foaming at the mouth as he demanded the immediate destruction of Catcher in the Rye or Huckleberry Finn (and also outlawing rock and roll and dancing). But is censorship inherently evil? Too often today, the censors are a small group of religious nuts who want to impose their view on the community. Replace the foaming at the mouth tyrant and the religious nuts with a majority of concerned parents who want to remove, not To Kill a Mockingbird, but Terry Southern's Candy. Now personally I enjoyed the latter book, but I don't know if I'd want it on the shelves available to any horny 10 year old. But it is something that should likely be discussed and decided by the community. And what better example of democracy than to have the community decide what is acceptable to themselves. Sure, you will lose some you should win, at least temporarily. But in the long run, The Merchant of Venice and One Day in The Life of Ivan Denisovich will out.

Re: Palin & the Librarian
 

Muncle.

It is much more than censorship.This hits a nerve with me as a concerned parent and grandparent and someone very interested and involved with education.....AND, I don't feel comfortable with Governor Palin's far right religious leanings.

I read so much here that is not open minded thinking. NO party will dictate what I think or make me believe that they are always right. To me that is a sickening kind of mind control.