A Problem with Open Carry Laws
 

Yesterday my hometown suffered yet another senseless gun tragedy. In this case 4 people were killed including the shooter. I will post a link to a report by the Denver Post but paste a paragraph included in the report because this tragedy might have been avoided.

Bettis said she recognized the gunman as her neighbor — whom she didn't know by name — and that before the initial slaying she saw him roaming outside with a rifle. She called 911 to report the man, but a dispatcher explained that Colorado has an open carry law that allows public handling of firearms.

The rights of ordinary citizens are being pushed aside by the gun lobby! If the police had responded to this call 3 innocent victims might have been spared.

Colorado Springs gunman, victims ID'd; police quickly confronted, shot suspect - The Denver Post

Guns do not load, aim and fire themselves. The typical hunter or other gun carrier does not commit mass murder.

This would be a better avenue to explore for the source of the problem, especially in Colorado:

Street drugs and schizophrenia

Overview: Use of street drugs (including LSD,methamphetamine,marijuana/hash/cannabis) and alcohol have been linked with significantly increased probability of developing psychosis and schizophrenia.

This link has been documented in over 30 different scientific studies (studies done mostly in the UK, Australia and Sweden) over the past 20 years. In one example, a study interviewed 50,000 members of the Swedish Army about their drug consumption and followed up with them later in life. Those who were heavy consumers of cannabis at age 18 were over 600% more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia over the next 15 years than those did not take it. (see diagram below). Experts estimate that between 8% and 13% of all schizophrenia cases are linked to marijuna / cannabis use during teen years.

Marijuana, Cannabis and Schizophrenia - Schizophrenia.com

Another useless argument for more laws. Criminals do not let laws govern their lives, Never have. If laws prevented any crime the prisons would be empty.

Then the person making the 911 call...
 

should have mentioned the person with the rifle was acting in a threatening manner. If one person has a car and drives into a crowd and kills 5 people we do not outlaw driving in public.

You can not predict some killings by people who are nuts and if they decide they're going to do others extreme bodily harm and act normal till they commit the act it matters not what they use for a weapon. The fact is guns save more people than they harm.

I fault the dispatcher for not sending an officer to check it out. Open carry notwithstanding, the officer would have ID'd the man, and run him for wants and warrants, and checked the weapon for theft.:024:

Unless the officer had probably cause (breaking a law, etc.), the person open carrying would not have to identify himself.

I suspect if this shooter had murder on his mind an officer would have hopefully recognized some sort of bizarre behavior that may have stopped I
this heinous crime. I agree the dispatcher and the person reporting the man carrying the rifle failed miserably in their communication.

She should have said that he looked like he was getting ready to prey on people. I do not see any easy answers here but fewer guns accessible to the mentally ill would be some kind of a strategy. How you make these less accessible would vary from community-to-community. I would expect that more programs of various kinds in each community would help through the churches, libraries, YMCAs, YWCAs, schools, etc. Volunteer programs that emphasize more community involvement of people looking out for others. Make people with problems like this Colorado Springs man want to help others rather than hurt them. Add more gun safety programs as well. More involvement of the National Alliance on Mental Illness too so that people understand better about the problems involving those with various mental illnesses. Very few of the large number of people with some kind of recurring depression or more serious problems ever become violent. https://www.nami.org/ https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Info...cs-Fact-Sheets

Giving people a reason to hope would help. Why linking depression to violent crime could be a red herring | Shirley Reynolds | Comment is free | The Guardian

I do have a problem with the NRA in not helping to curb the flow of weapons onto the streets of the US. Some of these weapons do not belong anywhere but in some armory or in the hands of the police/National Guard/US Army. If there are fewer weapons of this sort out there, then the criminals too would have a harder time getting them as would people with murder on their minds.

[QUOTE=Taltarzac725;1139693]She should have said that he looked like he was getting ready to prey on people. I do not see any easy answers here but fewer guns accessible to the mentally ill would be some kind of a strategy. How you make these less accessible would vary from community-to-community. I would expect that more programs of various kinds in each community would help through the churches, libraries, YMCAs, YWCAs, schools, etc. Volunteer programs that emphasize more community involvement of people looking out for others. Make people with problems like this Colorado Springs man want to help others rather than hurt them. Add more gun safety programs as well. More involvement of the National Alliance on Mental Illness too so that people understand better about the problems involving those with various mental illnesses. Very few of the large number of people with some kind of recurring depression or more serious problems ever become violent. https://www.nami.org/ https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Info...cs-Fact-Sheets

Giving people a reason to hope would help. Why linking depression to violent crime could be a red herring | Shirley Reynolds | Comment is free | The Guardian

I do have a problem with the NRA in not helping to curb the flow of weapons onto the streets of the US. Some of these weapons do not belong anywhere but in some armory or in the hands of the police/National Guard/US Army. If there are fewer weapons of this sort out there, then the criminals too would have a harder time getting them as would people with murder on their minds.[/QUOTE]

Let's just lock up everyone. Then we know we got all the criminals off the streets.

Those who would like certain gun rights are in fact ordinary citizens as well. So nobody is pushing anybody aside at all. Just adding or deleting rights that others may have or not have or want or not want. There is no negotiaiting of give us this right and push another aside. It is an emotional decsription and not factual.

Gun rights are there for any ordinary citizen to advantage of or not!!

On the open carry issue. It usually pertains to handguns, although not limited to them.
Open carry or not, if there was anybody meandering around with a rifle I would call the authorities and describe the actions as suspect warranting a verification.

People need to get over trying to not offend someone when they execute a see something say something situation. We need to err on the side of being safe not worrying about offending someone.

Sorta like snakes in a way. Don't waste time trying to figure if it is poisonous or not. Treat them all as if poisonous until knowledgeably determing other wise.

Not my intent... There is a problem with a law if this man's right to Open Carry trumps the general publics safety

I don't recall any verbiage in the 2nd amendment to a right to open carry correct if I am wrong.

You just keep believing that.:a20:

Blaming Guns for these shootings is like blaming Automobiles for Automobile Accidents.

Except an automobile's purpose is transportation not killing and maiming. There are weapons that are more appropriate on battlefields than on the streets of various cities. Common sense should show which guns/rifles/pistols these are.

Criminals will still get their hands on these but not as easily if there are more enforced laws. The mentally ill would get less of these in their control too if there were more well written laws that take into account the rights of those with various mental illnesses.

So sick and tired of these ultra liberal anti gun people wanting more laws thinking the laws will protect them and solve everything. How stupid can you be. Apparently pretty darn stupid. The criminals and crazy people out there do not follow any laws let alone gun laws. Guns are not at fault people are! Why can you understand this?

As for open carry there are good and bad points. Most people who carry a gun prefer to keep it concealed for obvious reasons.

Now we hear that Hillary favors the government taking all guns from the people regardless of the 2nd amendment. Get ready for the second American Revolution folks. How many people will die then?

"shall not be infringed". if you believe open carry is a form of bearing arms, just like concealed carry, then banning one form of bearing arms (open carry) could be considered "infringing" on a person's choice on how to bear arms. I'm not advocating open carry, just debating why many think it is a violation of the 2nd A.

Where do you get this Hillary myth?

And some people following the laws about guns will result in fewer guns out there and fewer mentally ill people having access to them. It is like the NRA has people brainwashed. Use your common sense.

How the hell could any politician confiscate all the guns in the hands of people in the US? That's an impossible proposition.

If you believe that one of the purposes of the 2nd A is to defend against an oppressive government, then what better weapon for the citizen to possess than than those used on the battlefield?

If you feel so strongly about gun ownership, why not work to change the 2nd A instead of trying to circumvent it or water it down with new laws and creative interpretations?

The rebels would be taking on the police SWAT teams, the military, and the like.

I do not believe the 2nd Amendment was even written with such a scenario in mind. It was written in case the British or some power like the Canadians or Mexicans came at the fledgling US like with the War of 1812, battles along the Mexican-American border and various Indian Wars. They wanted militias that were well armed in the very real possibility that attacks would come as they had before in the lifetimes of the Founding Fathers.

They wanted Minute Men not terrorists like those fighting in the French and other Revolutions. https://history.state.gov/milestones...800/french-rev

First and foremost these were people who fought with the pen and not the sword.

National Constitution Center

Then I guess my comment doesn't apply to you.

Common sense interpretations of laws not so much creative. What does this weapon do, what's its rate of fire, how easily can it be changed to automatic, etc?

It is like saying the Billionaire Donald Trump should have a nuclear weapon in case the Federal Government becomes oppressive. Trump can do more work in changing things with his mouth than using violence.

When you say something like that, it shows you have no understanding the 2nd A, nor do you understand the difficulty in a government fighting its own citizens, pitting citizens against citizens (military/police/etc.).

Except for various rebellions like the US Civil War.... Civil War Armories

Ever hear of John Brown, Robert E. Lee and Harper's Ferry? John Brown's Harpers Ferry Raid

I thought this thread was about open carry? It figures.

It would be very helpful when folks are discussing gun control just exactly what it is they want to accomplish.
The anti gun folks always paint with the broadest brush possible when proposing more controls.

Additionaly they never contrast how having more gun control laws does not work as demonstrated in Chicago, Los Angeles, NYC, et al.

There needs to be more specifics as in how to keep mentally ill from getting guns. How to prevent criminals from getting guns.

Those two alone would all but elinate the so called gun problem here in the USA. And of course in our permissive, don't offend anybody society there is no chance to make either work (as proven in Chigao, Los Angeles and NYC).

However to have something to say to appeal to the anti gun voter base, politicians and most all other anti gun people go broad brush. The merry go round continues to spin, hence nothing changes.....

I am not for broad brush policies but more contextual solutions. More power to local governments to get various weapons off the streets through more common sense approaches like perhaps putting a reasonable New Yorker, Chicagolander, etc. in as a test to what guns/weapons/etc. they should get out of the community. Cases would decide what the "reasonable" Chicagolander would actually sound like.

What works in New York City would not really work that well in the Villages.

Colorado Springs would be a different standard as well. I assume there are a lot of avid hunters in that area of Colorado as well as Air Force personnel.

Criminals-- gangs primarily- do get around various City, State and Federal laws in places like Los Angeles. I do not believe armed gangs like these are what the Founding Fathers had in mind with a well regulated militia and the right to bear arms. They seemed more to be addressing the National Guard that at times might be called in to deal with various riots in cities like Los Angeles. Watts Riots

Open carry laws
 

Open carry is a law in some States. I think many are getting this and our "Constitutional right" to have a gun mixed up. It's like apples and oranges---both fruit but not the same.

If I understand the OP was not saying you shouldn't own a gun---just thought "open carry" was a bad idea. I own a gun, three of them, but I keep them in my possession but not outside in my yard or at the golf course or park waving them around. Such is a real slippery slope.

I usually carry my rifle in a gun slip when moving it from the house to the car and back. I also always treat if as if it were loaded even when I am fairly certain it is empty.

If I saw a guy with a rifle acting strange here in the Villages, I would call 911.

While I am not familiar with the specifics of differing cities, I assume they are each somewhat tailored to their areas needs/wants.

Using Chicago as the example; clearly demonstrates that what ever they intended with all the current gun legislation, it is not working.

I do really think there is an air of accomplishment by too many politicians....that they feel they have addressed and issue or a problem, some by merely talking about it; others by passing more laws/rules. The failing is in the accountability of following up to determine what effect has there been. In Chicago as the example, it is clear they have not solved anything with more, stricter gun legislation. One conclusion being they missed the mark. They are thinking and acting general population when they should be addressing the specifics of criminals and others that should not have access to guns. Perhaps they know these in out current environment are not solveable. So they feel a need to "do something" even if it does not work....which it is not in Chicago (and others like it).

45 states allow open carry in some form. Florida is NOT one of them but that's about to change......

There are already laws that are adequate to remove guns from people that should not have them. They are not enforced. Adding new laws would only add to the number of laws not being enforced. Why do people think making a law solves the problem? I always chuckle when I hear we need universal background checks. We already have background checks. The problem is the system is run by Government. Government never runs things well. As for guns and cars. Yes one is used for transportation and the other for defense. That is not the argument. They are things. Things don't decide to do something wrong, people do. There have been the same types of weapons in society since the invention of the gun. What has changed is our attitude toward each other and the lack of respect. You can't fix that with a law. What type of weapon I choose to have for my protection is my business and no one else's.

Florida only allows open carry of a side arm if you are fishing. You may not carry a side arm in an open manner in Florida. You must carry concealed at this point and have a Concealed Carry Permit. You are correct that there is about to be a change in the law in Florida. The Florida Senate has passed or will soon pass changes to the carry law in Florida. You will be able to carry a side arm in Florida in an open manner if you have a concealed carry permit. I applaud the legislators for finally using some common sense when it comes to caring a firearm. I don't carry it to have a fight, I carry it to prevent it.

You are correct. I meant to say Florida does not allow open carry and edited my previous post.

Spot on.

I'm a firm believer in open carry of a firearm. With the following restrictions, you must have a background check and must attend a gun safety course, and receive a picture ID just like a conceal carry license. The reason I prefer open carry as to conceal carry is two fold. One is I only want to use the weapon as the last resort. Criminals look for easy targets. They do not want to target someone who could cause them harm. So if they see I'm armed, they will most likely pass me by and those that are directly around me. If they do not, then be happy you have a way to defend yourself. Second its time to get rid of this gunphobia in this nation. This fear of guns by the general public is just not healthy. Just because you see a person with a gun on them is not a reason to call 911. You call 911 because of the way they are acting not because you get a peak at a gun under their coat.

Okey Dokey, Thanks.

Can you give some examples of these laws? And I agree that government rarely runs things very well. What Gun Advocates Get Wrong About Chicago's Gun Laws: Chicagoist

That's an interesting pov. I think the growing pains of open carry could be a tough one. I think I would wait until it is common to see holstered guns in Publix and at the recreation centers before I would feel comfortable open carrying.

For those of us who have been in open carry states (map for reference to states allowing it):

Map: Where Is

I bet most will be surprised when they see how many do allow open carry.

Now start to enumerate in your mind how many folks you ever saw while you were in those states.

Most will answer none.

Too many have uneducated/uninformed visions of people with guns strapped to their hip all around us. As experienced in the states that allow it....THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

As in almost everything else discussed/debated/argued about guns.....too many uninformed, innacurate comments made. All for the purpose of an agenda only. Reality has little of nothing to do with most....unfortunately....in our special interest, minority group focused society.