Is anybody for the new proposed nationalized health care plan and why??
 

It is such a jammed up political scam, I allow I may have missed something in my haste to condemn.
What am I missing? Please enlighten me. Please no Obama saids.

btk

Nothing to enlighten you with. It's a scam to even think the cost will be lower. Did you hear Bidden in front of the AARP? "We have to implement health care to prevent the country from going bankrupt". So we have to spend more to prevent us going bankrupt? How dumb does he think we are. Anyone who thinks you can provide health care to an additional 40 to 50 million people and lower cost is insane.

Yes, I Am...Here's Why
 

Only a couple simple reasons...

• The cost of healthcare as a percentage of GDP is increasing as an unsustainable rate. Legislative action is needed to bring those costs under control. The free market has not accomplished that in over thirty years and there is no evidence that it can or will in the near-term future.
• Americans are not counted among the healthiest populations on the planet, not even close. That's in spite of the egregious costs we incur for such care compared to other countries.
• For a country that counts itself among the best educated and most economically advanced to have tens of millions of its people with no healthcare whatsoever is almost criminal to think of. Something needs to be done about this problem.

If you can think of other ways to solve these problems other than a comprehensive new set of laws and regulations, and probably taxes to pay for them, please share them with us.

Does anyone know or have an idea of THOSE WITHOUT HEALTHCARE in the United States.....how they breakdown...as how many on welfare, unemployed, employed, illegal immigrants counted, etc. ?

I suppose it can be researched, Bucco. But I don't have a real precise answer other than it's a big number.

For one, I would support the idea of refusing to provide any government-funded healthcare to illegal immigrants or their families, even if by being born here they were "legal". But as far as those that are unemployed, on welfare, etc., I still believe that society has a responsibility to provide them with healthcare.

To reduce the number of illegal immigrants who are enjoying government-funded healthcare would require some pretty tough measures to tighten up our borders. You have often asked what the effect of proposed legislation might be on small businesses. What effect do you think not having ready access to cheap labor which is willing to work hard might have on small businesses? That's exactly the reason why we're not likely to see any significant immigration reform. But we're still stuck with tens of millions with no healthcare.

Kind of a Catch 22, isn't it?

Millions without health care, millions without jobs, millions without cars, millions without cellphones, millions without cable TV, millions without.....

It's always easy to say that society needs to pay more taxes to provide "millions" with something. Where does it end?

If the goal is to provide health care for millions, why don't we give something else up to pay for that, instead of adding to the burden of the depleting pool of taxpayers?

Let's start by cutting the US Agency for International Development by half, and instead of trying to take care of the world, we spend that money here? How about an import tax all foreign-imported goods at an additional $1 for declared value of $1,000? Let's add to that a fine for every person illegal in the US at $1,000 to cover the cost of detention and deportation (most have assets which can be confiscated).

The government is no different than the average family - you want to buy something new and don't have any discretionary funds, then you must give up something to get the new item. The alternative is borrow the money from someone (like the Chinese) and then steal the money from someone else (like a taxpayer) to pay back the lender.

There are other options than higher taxes. If not, eventually, there will be no taxpayers left from whom to rob. Then what?

Something on the subject from PBS.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_...uninsured.html

Thank you for the link....it helps....a few things jumped out at me, and this is not being unsympathetic at all...

43.1 % of the uninsured are NOT american citizens

21 % of the uninsured make OVER 50,000 per year (almost 8 % over 75,000)

88% of the uninsured were not born in the US !

Most of the children are eligible for Medicaid but the government has done a bad job in getting the info out.

About 85% of all americans are insured ! Used the Pop of 305 million and the sites estimate of almost 45 million uninsured.

Just these three things tell me that this needs some discussion ! Assuming I read the site correctly and did my math correctly.

This is not being unsympathetic...I am FOR health care, but now I am sure we are moving much too fast on this huge amount of money !

PS...Please check my math everybody !!

Sounds good to me, Steve. This particular forum has been most educational, interesting sans antagonistic negative comments. Strictly issue-driven. Wonderful, just wonderful.

barb

ps....Well maybe one thus far; Just read 12ridehd.

Just a thought about those uninsured numbers:

I work in a company with terrible insurance. I think every employee with a working spouse has the spouse's insurance just because it's better for them and their family.

Now, I'll wager that in most two-worker families, the whole family is covered by only one's insurance. Does that drop the worker who is not taking his/her company's insurance into the "uninsured" cohort?

I am sure that when employers are questioned by the insurance carrier about the number of employees eligible for insurance, and that number is compared to the number using the available insurance, there is a gap. Is that gap added to the "uninsured" number?

I don't know, but it seemed worth wondering about.

AGREED:beer3:

You have a valid point GEEZER ! These numbers have really given me pause and it bothers me with the generalizations about americans going without healthcare and 85% have it, and actually it is higher since over 40% of those "uninsured" are not even american citizens.

Then of course there is the "under insured" ! All of this bothers me because it does not seem like an issue that our congress should address in haste or in with such blatant policitism on either side.

Cashman
 

It is easy to tell who knows the facts about health care in america and who is taking a position based on a bias.

When you debate your political biases please understand this one basic fact: There are people living in america who do not have health insurance for many reasons. However, there is not one person without medical care available to them.

I was an executive directer of a medical center. We could not and did not refuse our full sevices to anyone. We gave these services
even when the patient had no money, no id's , or could not speak englih.

When you say millions of americans are without medical care you just not know your country.

Thanks for doing the math Bucco. The 21% that make over $50,000 tells alot about priorities. It also includes many young people who realistically would rather spend their monies on other things.
Once you subtract the non-americans (19 million) and the people who make over $50,000 and chose not to purchase (9.5 million) it sheds a new light on the urgency factor.

I know I will be slammed for this but.....

$50,000 sounds like a lot of money but that is about the starting salary for persons with a college degree. Then you have to look at the amount of their college loans...I have a niece and nephew both MD's they make about that, interns and resident, and you wouldn't want to know the amount they owe. (they do get healthcare) Then you need to factor in where these people live...any big city has big housing and cost of living.

It is not all black and white....

Agreed there are alot of people in that situation. There is, however, alot of blue collar people who are in the $30,000-40,000 bracket who have to work alot of overtime or a second job to reach that plateau. You know...like Caterpillar where they are still looking for those jobs to come back as promised if the gigantic bill was passed by congress.

Not sure why anyone would slam you....this is valid and then of course even those who count as insured but are underinsured.

My point after looking at these numbers and hearing very little if any public debate and very little if any details on what our congress is doing...WHY DO WE NEED TO SHOVE THIS DOWN OUR THROAT SO QUICKLY ?

Are we going to cover NON citizens, etc ???

Here is MY example increasing healthcare cost
My Healthcare costs: One person, monthly

Jan-April 2007..............monthly $573.88
May-Aug " .................." 663.23
Sept-Mar 2007-2009..................887.27
Apr increased to 1,110.00

Up 93% in two years! Yikes!

Yes, I am for the proposed health care plan. I am a retired RN and have seen too many people who had no or very limited coverage.

I am a breast cancer surviver. Mine was caught extremely early, and I received great care, but know of others who were not screened and treated on time do to cost and many lost their lives.

My grandson was born in France (Father working there, and family living there). He was extremely sick when he was born. It was touch and go. He received wonderful care, recovered and is now doing fantastic. French doctors were top rate.

Cousin in the UK had quadtriple bypass surgery. Great doctors, great recovery.

I believe health care is a right. We lost our health insurance before we were on Medicare. Bought an expensive private policy, but it excluded anything that had to do with cancer. Once on Medicare I was once again covered.

JUst seems like there should be a better way. Also, I don't think a profit should be made from health care.

I know very few who are AGAINST any health care changes !!!

My problem is the RUSH to get there. This is a big deal and a big committment !!

:agree:

Oh by the way have a read
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Pres...ssiondraft.pdf Draft of the health care house version

Have not seen ONE person on here or otherwise not support health care reform.....it is the speed and lack of debate and details that are scary !

Selling reform is not a problem !!!1

As a society, we can have whatever we altogether can afford. The problem is, we can't have everything, as no society can afford that.

When the supposed way to afford something is to selectively tax any portion of the population, the taxed folk find ways to avoid what they think is a bigoted tax, and the burden shifts further down the pyramid. After a while, we're all taxed beyond belief.

So, here we sit, in a society already $10+Trillion in debt and growing, with rising unemployment (shrinking the taxpayer pool). How do we respond? We charge into another financial abyss with no real idea what it will cost and requiring a more bloated government (which we must pay for in addition) to "manage." Does this make any sense?

So, before this money-monster rips us up, how about a dollar-for-dollar reduction elsewhere in government? What in God's name makes us think we can afford everything when the only way we've been getting more is just acquiring another government credit card, running it to the limit, and then paying its bill with one more new credit card.

This is insanity, and I'm not sure that condition is covered by the proposed health care bill....

I turned my back on Obama's attempt to reform our health care problem when he took such a pig-headed arrogant position on including tort reform as part of the process. I hope his initiative falls flat on it's face. He needs a wake up call anyway.

Me too.

Agree And Disagree
 

Believe it or not, I'm pretty much with you on this, Steve.

You're right. We can have whatever we can afford. It's a matter of establishing a collective will for what the most important things are that we desire and are willing to pay for. The problem is that the electorate has been inattentive and our elected representatives have made no effort whatsoever to establish any priorities for over a decade. They have been on a wild-eyed spending spree and continue to do so. They are continuing to spend on whatever they and the special interests they represent desire, paying for it with borrowed money and by doing so obligating future generations of Americans to pay for their self-serving largesse. So far, those that have been agreeable to lend the U.S. as much as it wants to borrow have continued to do so. That will not continue.

We should be forewarned that this situation is just as ridiculous and unsustainable as the value of houses increasing 10% a year and banks being willing to lend money to people who clearly can't repy the loans. We know what the outcome of that period of lunacy has been. As we told ourselves after the financial crisis became evident, common sense should have told uas this couldn't continue. The near future holds a similar and dramatic outcome in my opinion. Common sense should tell us that.

If you are referring to the need for healthcare reform as insanity, I disagree. For the same reasons I noted in an earlier response in this thread, I support such reform and the costs that accrue to it. What is necessary is a long hard look at the other stuff that our government spends money on. A long hard look at expenditures that should be eliminated in order to afford things that are truly important to our society.

There's no sense confusing this thread with another recitation of spending reductions that are possible. But I might start with stopping wars that we can't afford, military expenditures that we don't need, and a deep across-the-board cut in government spending on everything else. Those would be "way of life changing" cost reductions. We'll either do it ourselves or those that until now have loaned us money will do it for us.

As long as I still have choice and it does not cost me more than I am paying now.

Does anyone know....

1. If the current legislation addresses the 43% of uninsured that are NOT citizens of the US ?

2. In countries where there are versions of national health care, does it cover those who are NOT citizens of their country ?

I agree with you 100%...........anyone who has great coverage, congratulations, however, if you get sick and for some reason lose your coverage, you have what is now known as a pre-existing condition and can go up the creek for the next five years. I AM FOR THE PROPOSED HEALTHCARE PLAN!!!!

Well, I cannot say I am for the proposal as you....while I favor healthcare reform, under the proposal that you support, those you mention that may have great coverage through an employer will probably lose it, as employers will probably drop it in favor of the cheaper US Government plan that will be offered which I assume will be some sort of BIG Medicaid program. While that is happening I would assume that the government will then be bailing out insurance companies because the private versions will be dropping by the wayside.

It will also TAX and penalize any company with over 25 employees for not offering insurance putting a ton of small business's in a situation that will require to decide whether to continue or not and if they do, they will pass this additional cost on to you !

I also object, IF IN FACT this bill does, to insuring NON citizens to the same extent as citizens.

I also have concerns about what happens to my Medicaire program as I understand the President wants to save by cutting cost there.

All in all, I am without a doubt a supporter of health care reform, and I also realize that no bill will satisfy everyone, but this rush is scary. This congress is not a body I trust in any way shape or form.

Glad you found your bill to support...I am still looking !

I am confused by the entire thing frankly, and was hoping for a nice public debate or even a debate in what we call our legislative bodies but I suppose that is not going to happen.

Big NO on the health care plan. Who's going to pay for it? I can't afford any more costs or higher taxes, can you?

Ok, make the rich and the employers pay for it. You think unemployment is high now? LOL just wait and see what happens...

If you are on Medicare now, it IS going to cost you more
 

to retain the same coverage!!
When the re-distribution is taken into account, what ever will be the new standard offering will be less than you have today. There will of course be all kinds of supplements available.

On another note, I am sure there are not many small business owners here in TV. The new reform will require the owners to insure all who they employ that do not have insurance and the owner will be paying 72% of the cost. How many small businesses will be able to afford such an increase in operating expense.

Obama has the rush on so as to not allow too much information to be digested to create a negative back lash. In addition, he wants it to go as quickly as possible before his popularity ratings tank any further.

Other than the generalities, have you seen or understand any of the details? Of course not. Even the Dems in Congress are nervous about the lack of information and how it will work. And none of us including Congress has ANY idea of the cost and it's impacts.

It is one thing to say reform is needed. It is quite another to ASSUME what is being ram rodded is going to fix ANYTHING!!!

It will end up costing more....there is no way for it not too.

btk

Depends what we call "health care reform."

I don't agree with the establishment of a "Health Czar," coupled with a White House Office of Health Reform, positioned to become a new Department of Health (or equivalent) with a cast of thousands (mainly contractors at $XXBillion to run this monster for years), and a host of political appointees to boot. That's a lot of government tail wagging a very small public dog. That's a lot of "buck" for a barely audible "bang."

I'm not for having US taxpayers picking up the health care tab for illegal aliens. That will just encourage more border jumpers, and we have too many here now.

I'm for providing health care assistance to people in need, but the need has to be real, and not just because they optioned to spend their money on other things not considered necessities of life. Don't take taxes from someone on the edge to pay the bills for another who squanders.

I'm not for promising free or subsidized health care coverage to any population segment in exchange for votes.

So, Reform, Yes! Political stupidity and greed, No!

From Steve's post, the shortest on target non partisan
 

response I have seen to date:

"Reform, Yes! Political stupidity and greed, No!"

:eclipsee_gold_cup:

btk

Question....If 9 out of 10 are getting health care..why do we need reform? For the 10%.....I say we just tweak it a little.

PS. I am part of the 10% and don't want reform on my account.

Under Obama care you are required to get insurance. If you don't, you pay a penalty to the government in the form of a tax.

When I was 18, 19, 20 and struggling to get by I didn't have any health coverage. In my mind I didn't need it. I was young, healthy and never went to the doctor. Later as I got better jobs I eventually was covered under an employers plan.

So under Obama care I would have been forced into buying something I couldn't afford or pay a penalty tax I couldn't afford.

That is so wrong on so many levels I can't even express it and it makes me absolutely furious just thinking about it.
barf :swear: :oops: :cus: :yuck:

I agree with you, Steve. But the number of illegal aliens already here and flooding over our borders every day--all of whom will get free healthcare if and when the need it--highlights another problem with our government...and with the U.S. residents who elect them, particularly small business owners.

I'm convinced that a major reason why our borders remain as porous as a sponge is because business owners and the members of Congress they support want it that way. If we seriously wanted our borders to be secure, it could happen pretty quickly and easily. But the special interests who benefit from the cheap but illegal labor have the Congress in their pockets on the issue. The cheap although illegal labor that business wants creates the Catch 22 problem that the public has to foot the bill for the healthcare for the illegals they hire.

There's a considerable amount of logic that seems to support the idea in one of the current versions of the healthcare reform bill that small business owners either provide insurance to their workers or pay a fee or surcharge. In that business owners are the ones benefitting from the illegal laborers, it seems right to me that they pick up the tab for their health insurance--not the general public as a whole.