Is this fair....
 

I have tried to rationalize this from every perspective...help me all of those who support this action by our President and congress....help me to understand,,.,,,

"In their latest effort to pass a health care bill by any means necessary, Democrats have struck a "tentative deal" with their big labor allies to exempt union benefits from a tax on high value health care plans, CongressDaily reports.

The idea itself is nothing new. Back in June, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus floated the idea of shielding union benefits from the new tax, but it was set aside. In September, President Obama declined to take a clear position on this so-called "carve out." But now that the excise tax has become a sticking point in negotiations between the House and Senate -- and one that threatens to cost Democrats union support for the bill -- the exemption idea is evidently back in play.

If this policy is adopted, it would mean that there could be two Americans receiving the exact same benefits, but one American may be taxed and one wouldn't, and the only difference would be one of them being a member of a union. This is unseemly and unfair, even by the standards of Obamacare. It has nothing to do with policy-making. It's simply an outright bribe to a constituency that has contributed handily to Democratic campaigns."

http://spectator.org/blog/2010/01/13...rant-special-e

the "Unfair" facade
 

Bucco,

You have a point. But it is inevitable that the new health care laws, like every other law passed in the entire history of our nation, will contain provisions that are "unfair". I submit that if exactly what you are referring to comes to pass, it will be a microscopically trivial injustice compared to failing to pass the entire legislative package.

So many of the furious objections and fears about the proposed legislation are about minor points, regulations which will affect either a relatively small percentage of the population, or, if a larger number of people, but to a relatively small degree. Doing everything perfectly or eliminating all of the "unfairness" is impossible in our diverse country. And BTW, just what is "unfair"? Is it unfair that those who earn over $1 million per year may be required to pay taxes that are a few percentage points higher to assist in providing more comprehensive health care to millions of people who cannot get it now unless they are life-threatened?

We cannot be distracted by the special interests who stop at nothing to find "unfairness" anywhere in the proposals, with the single objective of stopping any reform at any cost.

Progress is incremental and, in our country, usually maddeningly slow. This nation must finally come to grips with providing a better health care system. The electorate gave us the rare combination of a Congressional majority and a President who have steadfastly refused to give up on the enormous challenge their predecessors couldn't, or didn't care to conquer. The proposed legislation, regardless of how it is finally tweaked by the conference committee, is an historic, positive first step.

Health care reform is as ambiguous as the following two articles:
 

As predicted:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

But then there is the lead story on Drudge:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...UfFaCh9c&pos=9

The constant razzle dazzle. Must be Brown (and a lot of others are not aware of all the sneak plays a party can choose to each into the gutter and play in the name of preserving "the agenda".

Think about it. Whether 60 or 51......such a small number needed to decide the fate of a nation.
Now how fair is that?
And we the people go merrily along for the ride.......AS USUAL:cus::cus:

btk

Yes!
 

I completely agree! Great post! :coolsmiley:

Indeed, a positive first step in yet another government unconstitutional takeover that will end in disaster. Why is it so hard to see that it's not at all about health care? It's plan as day if you open your eyes.

It's government control pure and simple. That's why they will stop at nothing to pass it even when the majority of Americans are against it.

Exemptions, pay-off's, bribes, threats, lies and back door secret deals. That's seems to be what some of you support. Government take-over at any cost.

To say "they" want to stop any reform at any cost is about as wrong as wrong can get. We all know reforms are needed. What we want to do stop is the wrong reforms and they currently have it WRONG and most Americas know it.

Tell me, where does Congress have the constitutional authority to force every single American to buy health insurance or suffer fines or even jail? And then pick and choose groups who are exempt based purely on political pay backs or affiliation?

How benevolent is sounds. "They" can afford it so there's no reason why they shouldn't pay a little more.

I'll tell you the definition of social justice. You keep what you earn and I'll keep what I earn. Do you disagree? Then tell me how much of what I earn belongs to you and why? Go ahead, tell me.

Weren't you taught it's wrong to take what doesn't belong to you? Guess that doesn't apply to some... especially politicians.

I can see the next reply already. "How evil of you to be so selfish and uncaring."

Oh I care, but my caring isn't derived steeling from others even if they can afford to be stolen from and then deciding who I think deserves it.

You help who you want with your money and I'll help who I want with mine. Americans don't need politicians deciding for us, as evidence of BO's poll numbers dropping through the floor.

dklassen--- AMEN!!!! AMEN!!! AMEN!!

If this bill is so wonderful why aren't the congress critters going to be covered under the same plan??? If it is so wonderful why do they need to bribe etc. congress critters to vote for it???

I'll add one more thing.

Sounds really good and noble but let me ask you a question. Is that million dollars yours? Did you earn it? It is your right to give some of it away?

You or your neighbor is having a difficult time right now financially. Do you have the right to knock on that millionaires door and demand a check for a thousand dollars at gun point. Of course you don't and wouldn't, the analogy is ridiculous.

However, that "gun" is the IRS and you support in proxy politicians doing that very same thing in your name with money that doesn't belong to you or them in the name of health care and fairness. After health care it will be in the name of something else, and something else and something else.

It's not fair that some can afford car insurance and others can't, it's not fair that some can afford life insurance to protect their family and others can't, it's not fair some can afford to own a car and other's can't. It's not fair that some can afford to own a house and other's can't. It's not fair that some can have their teeth fixed and other's can't, it's not fair that some can pay their heating bill and other's can't, it's not fair some have a job and others don't, it's not fair some make 100k a year and others only make 30k, it's not fair some can afford to live in The Villages and others can't, not fair, not fair, not fair.

Guess what, life isn't fair and you CAN'T make it fair no matter how much money you forcibly take from one and give to another. The only one's who benefit in the end are politicians. Government programs don't make things fair, they only make the government larger.

It's time more people figure that out... maybe, just maybe they are starting to.

Hear Hear!!! Milton Friedman to it's core!:thumbup:

If I was as angry as you sound, I would call this the most self-centered, myopic view possible of a citizen's role in a democracy. Are you as angry about every taxpayer dollar spent, or just some? Are you infuriated that we are in now spending millions to help Haitians?

But I am not angry and I won't accuse you of being selfish, etc.

I would just suggest you think of your role as an American in the way Bill Gates does. Maybe you'll argue that it's easy for him, but in fact, he doesn't have to give away millions. He says the more individuals profit from the system, the more we OWE the system. In America, profit is not accidental or rare. Gates says it is realized because of the peace, order and strength of our society, the higher educational opportunities, the huge national commitment to research and development, and the deep financial base that makes it possible to weather the worst economic downturns and unbridled greed of the rich.

The majority of Americans are living a comfortable lifestyle completely beyond the grasp of the majority of people in the rest of the world. None of us put ourselves in that lofty state by ourselves. The least we can do is share a little of what we have with our own countrymen so that their health and future opportunities might become a little more equal to what we have. If they can achieve the basics, they will have the ability to be the engines of future progress. Therein lies the real strength of a nation.

The ideals being expoused are noble and most of us would
 

support such goals. The current health care reform does none of what is touted as "helping". Helping who? It is Obama's personal agenda item. As he has said all through the summer when he found his so charisma is wearing thin and we the people weren't just buying what ever he and his worker bees in the congress and senate throw over the wall.

He said more than once this summer, he did not care what was in the bill as long as he could get a bill passed this year. He is an after the fact persona in the crafting of the bill. Just like the rest of the politicians he is not privy to the contents. The only time he gets involved is when there is a bump in the road and another hold out needs to be reigned in....most recently the unions.....they hold out....he gives in...they get what they want....the rest of the rank and file just goes where the bus goes.

The hold out till you get a deal is so prevalent you would think an intelligent member of the process would spot the technique. There is the hooker....an intelligent person in office!!!!!

How many of you would buy a house knowing as little about it as you do about health care reform? How many of you would invest your savings in a product knowing no more about it than you do about health care reform?

For starters you would be committing to buying a house or an investment from somebody who can not tell you how much it is going to cost!!! Would any of us have to go any further???

THEN WHY IS IT OK FOR THE SHYSTERS IN WASHINGTON TO DO JUST THAT????

Please don't confuse the noble objectives of most humans to help one another out with what politicians say.....I would think if you are posting on this forum you are old enough to know better that the pig in a poke routine.

btk

Now here's that high octane, scattershot anger!

Blah Blah Blah.

A: Nope, just some.

How noble of you to be so free with everyone's else's money. You aren't a retired politician are you?

You talk about the strength of a nation. Tell me one nation in world history that taxed itself into prosperity?

When is enough - enough? I would never be upset about sharing a little of what I have - but the government has already seen to that so I already do share. How much more must I share? When will the bleeding stop - the bleeding heart liberals and the bleeding of my wallet?

How is it fair to exempt someone from paying a tax for one reason.....being a union member ?

Someone on here said that there has to be a start......how about actually reforming the health care system, instead of using our congress to pay political IOU's ?(if you dont think this examption was political then you are very naive) How about not CARING what is in the bill just as long as you get a bill....is that the way we want to begin finally on health care ?

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I think that's what they believe.

Bleeding!?!?!
Please tone down the drama.
You are not bleeding. If you are wealthy enough, with the new health care regulations you might suffer a paper cut.

A lot of questions asked but no answers... hum

Bucco I'm with you
 

Although I am still working and part of the USWA I am 100% against the Union exemptions. I have what would be considered the Cadillac plan.
I am against what Obama is doing. Divide and conquer .

We have absolutely NO idea what each sector is getting to be paid off. I can't imagine how much is being paid off in bribes to get peoples votes.

This whole administration makes me ill.

Vote the BUMS out. :mad::mad:

Yeah right...a trillion dollar microscopic paper cut in a major recession.

The Cloward-Piven Marxists are sticking to the game plan. Their in the White House and executing the strategy that calls for the bankrupting of our capitalistic economic system and pave the way for a totalitarian government that owns industries, banks and businesses, tells us what to eat and drink, decides who lives and dies based on cost-effectiveness and spreads the wealth. Hmmmm.....sounds eerily familiar. Their agenda will:

raise taxes on businesses and industries that produce jobs,

create more entitlements to facilitate the fall of the economic system while creating unsustainable deficits and debt service

tax investments and dividends for investors who largely fund the expansion of businesses and industries that create jobs. A real job killer,

exempt special interests...like unions from $60 billion in healthcare taxes and assess the rest of the taxpaying suckers to cover their share,

give up billions in kickbacks and bribes to "buy" votes with taxpayer dollars on a plan that every poll says Americans don't want...and than we have to listen to them as if they, the loud minority, have the moral high ground

cut $500 billion from Medicare while looking at the camera and swearing benefits will not be reduced by a nickle,

segregate billions in the "doc fix" so it doesn't look like its adding to the trillion dollar, " microscopic paper cut".

Margaret Thatcher had it right when she said, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

Bucco....close the doors ....the leftists are coming through the windows!

Cabo you are correct
 

Unfortunately we will never know just how much this fiasco is going to cost us. We will never know how much each person had to be bribed to get their vote. Transparency I believe was their battle cry.

Who does not receive medical care when they need it? Illegal aliens? No. The uninsured? No. People who don't seek it? sometimes.

This bill is not about health care. The uninformed think it is. Liberals know it's not. Most of the American people know it's not.

Time will tell.

Yoda

Yoda nails it in one sentence:
 

"This bill is not about health care. The uninformed think it is. Liberals know it's not. Most of the American people know it's not."

Using the above as a given, doesn't it concern those who remain silent the government continues with such a passion on an issue that most Americans are against?

Even a little bit? If not now you soon will be and your family coming behind you will for absolute certainty!!!!!!!!!!

btk

I think it's a general liberal philosophy. They put their faith in government and if it sounds good to them they support it.

Universal health care sounds well meaning so they don't dig much beyond that. If you speak out against it with a few facts then you are deemed an angry selfish person.

Add to to the fact that many liberals really do believe that from each according to his ability, to each according to his need and you have a recipe for disaster which is what we have going on now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njbchbum
When is enough - enough? I would never be upset about sharing a little of what I have - but the government has already seen to that so I already do share. How much more must I share? When will the bleeding stop - the bleeding heart liberals and the bleeding of my wallet?


I wish that I could tone down the drama! But I have to live it every day! The key word in your response is "If"! I can assure you, that IF I were wealthy enough [or as wealthy as you apparently are], IF I didn't have to pay my government tithes, IF I didn't have to pay my religious tithe, IF I didn't have to contribute to the support of sisters, nieces and nephews, great nieces and great nephews, IF my parents were wealthy and left us buckets of $$, IF I had married the rich guy instead of the guy I loved, IF John Beresford Tipton has sent Michael Anthony to my house years ago, If I had listened to my parents and saved 10% of my annual income when I began to work, IF, IF, IF.........that's the story of my life!

Along with the fact that I still wear my old clothes, my old old clothes go to the Salvation Army or the church's clothes closet, household items that are still useable go to Freecycle or my yard sales, I still eat leftovers, I can't tell you the last time I went out to a movie, etc. I live the addage "Waste not, want not." every day!

And to me - your thoughts ijusluvit are a waste!

I read this over and over and the only logical conclusion I can arrive at is that you think that is is ok to be unfair, as long as this bill passes !

Sorry.....I dont get that !

I thought I was the only one
 

Bucco I get the same impression that you do. Do whatever you must to get this passed. The end justifies the means. :shrug::shrug:

Bucco,

Since you are one of few who don't simply scream their responses and attack the poster, I'll respond briefly. Then after I finish my 18 hour drive to TV and catch my breath, I'll give you six or seven reasons why I take the position.

No one thinks it's "ok to be unfair". But you must have read my statement there is no such thing as an entirely fair legislative act, one of the few things I don't think anyone could disagree with. After careful consideration and some effort to quantify the unfairness of the union member provision you cited, my conclusion was that is trivial by comparison to the fairness that can be achieved by the overall legislation.

I respect your opinion, but this is a bill that nobody knows how we will pay for (or uses that famous "approximate")...but thats ok. It exempts certain states for political purpose and you gotta wonder how good this is if being exempt will buy your vote...but thats ok. It is a bill, that you can believe it or not will ADD costs to those who most cannot afford it....but thats ok. It is a bill conceived in deciet..remember all the promise about how we could ALL see on CPAN who was getting what.....but thats ok.

And you know what.....it does NOT address health care ! But all of that is ok !

PS: There are other things that you my think are insignificant or trivial that I just didnt include ! In addition, if I understand the polls the majority of Americans dont want this health care bill passed (Gallup does show 49 but the rest are low 40's or 30's) Now that always elicits the comment...and I can almost see you typing this......those who oppose JUST DONT UNDERSTAND.....but of course we will never be able to as it is all top secret and will be rammed through at first opportunity !

It is unfair
 

Maybe taking from those who have and giving it to those who do not may seem fair to some but it is socialism.

Socialism in the long run leaves everyone in need.

I would like to add to my PS on the last posting I made in this thread if I may.....I said in that PS that anyone who opposes this bill, or this tax, is said to be not able to understand or comprehend the proposals....in others words, trust us, we know what is best...we hear you in all the polls saying you dont want any part of it...but you just dont understand.

I did not see THIS WEEK on ABC yesterday but in reading the transcript this morning, I was struck by these comments from George Will....he was responding to the moderator mentioning the latest poll numbers showing disapproval not only of the President but his policies, especially this health care bill...

"WILL: Well, to his credit, this is a serious president who has decided not to hoard his political capital. To govern is to choose; to choose is to make someone unhappy. And he's made a lot of choices, almost all of them, in my judgment, unfortunate, but he won the election. He gets to do that. So he's been a serious man.

Furthermore, with regard to health care, all this investment in an unpopular bill, there is a strand of liberalism of which I think he is an exemplary that says the fact that it's unpopular demonstrates how important it is to pass it. That is, supervisory liberalism says the American people really don't know what's in their best interests and it's our job to tell them. He's telling them."

http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-...9584720&page=4

I believe that the Unions neogicated the medical plans in lieu of higher wages by contract. The deal is intended to be in place only until new contracts can be negociated.

????? The unions are negotiating their contracts with the Federal government now?

Wow
 

Are you serious. My God lets make some sense here.

The Scoundrels
 

By offering great advantages to unions they are buying and bribing for more votes. What we are going through as a country is criminal. Does anyone remember the predictions that America will never be conquered from without but only by within. That is what we are seeing today. The Constitution is no longer the governing document, personal rights have been thrown over the side, a majority of politicians are taking overt bribes, open and transparency has been discarded and replaced with behind the doors agreements by crooked politicians, dirty politics is now generally accepted as a way of business and life.
The old time "carpet *******" are now a way of business, (Hillary from Arkansas to NY, Ford Jr. from Tennennsee to NY, the Kennedys from anywhere to a state they want to con RI:bowdown:, etc.) I am sorry that we are leaving this mess to our children and grandchildren to fix. We have left it to the young to go after these scoundrels.

I need to know much more on what you are saying !!!

I dont doubt the medical plans were negotiated....but are you saying and I would need some valid language on it....that they WILL Not be taxed after the next contract negotiations ??? That the unions are going to take a lesser plan ? My understanding is that if you are in a union....NO tax..period !

By the way, when you negotiate a good medical contract, that, in most cases, cost the company more but it sure is a cost and very seldom will the unions go to a cheaper version !

So please clarify !!!

nothing but a bribe
 

Bucco, this is noting but a bribe for past votes and votes in the future.
Even though I benefit from his no tax on unions I am against it 100%.
They did not have my vote before and for sure they don't have it now.

I agree...I just want to hear from COLOGAL where this information she supplied came from because that is something I have never even heard hinted at !!!!

I might add to this thread that this EXEMPTION for those special union members....

ADDS 60 BILLION (Billion with a B) to the cost of the plan !!!

So, we declared war on the "rich" (over 250,000) and now we gotta pull out those union members and declare war if you are not union ! Wait for card check and various other bills to push this even further.

If you believe that Colo, as the saying goes, 'I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.'

Perhaps she's referring to how health insurance became a common work benefit in the first place.

There were wage and price controls in WWII. In order to improve the lives of their union members, unions discovered that it was legal to get more benefits in lieu of more wages since wages couldn't increase. The wartime restrictions didn't say ANYTHING about benefits.