Ptsd
 

I was just wondering if someone, (maybe who served in Korea or WW 2) can tell me why they never mentioned PTSD and it seems from Vietnam Nam to Afganistan, it has become a big mental health issue.

They used to call it "shell shock" or "battle fatigue". It is why my father and many of his friends were alcoholics.

PTSD and shell shock are the same. And they are different.

The same because shell shock was an intellectual forerunner to PTSD. PTSD was influenced by the experiences of psychiatrists working with veterans returning from Vietnam. As such the two ideas set out to do pretty much the same thing.

The difference however is that shell shock was specific to the experiences of combat whereas the concept of PTSD has developed to be more wide ranging.

My father and three uncles came back from serving in WW2 and also became alcoholics. The local tap rooms in the local neighborhoods were full of them Friday through Saturday night in the post war years. If you truly went around the bend you were institutionalized in state run mental hospitals and you never came out. As a result of a court order, I think, in the early or late 1960s the institutions were closed and depopulated with patients turned out on the streets. My personal opinion is that that a lot of dangerous people on our streets today would be locked up if the system still existed. Whether such a system can be rationalized and justified is another question entirely.

My poor sweet uncle was never the same after serving in Korea. I remember, when I was a kid, my mother attributing it to his having been "gassed" in the war. Poor guy could never hold a job after that. Uncle Dave. He was so good to us kids.

I think PTSD has always been there. We just know more about it now.

Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) - Symptoms and causes - Mayo Clinic

Some of the better novels/histories about war cover post traumatic stress disorder in just about every war they are describing especially if horrible things happened in those conflicts. Anything from the Battle of Agincourt to the Battle of Okinawa to those fighting in Afghanistan now.

I have also seen it from first responders as I watched my uncle's face as he described cleaning up of an airplane crash near O'Hare Airport in the late 1970s. He was the Fire Chief of Itasca, Illinois. But he did not like talking about it all that much. American Airlines Flight 191 - Wikipedia

I see that you are relatively new to TOTV'S and will temper my reply. I read your post as if you are questioning the diagnosis of people currently suffering from PTSD and making a comparison that is Apples to Oranges. It is a much different world now than it was before.

If it is questioning a specific person you know that has been diagnosed tell us what you have done to help him or her instead of questioning the difference between the times of Boardwalk Empire (1920's & 1930's) and Empire (2018).

If that isn't what you meant I apologize. People from a very bad time in N.Y.C. suffer with it every day all these days after that terrible event. Imagine the poor souls living with that pain. No specifics need be mentioned in this forum. In my opinion, it's like me saying I have a headache an someone saying I don't. :ohdear:

Here’s another link to some information on PTSD...

History of PTSD: How Post Traumatic Stress Disorder was Slowly Recognized as a Disorder

When such effects on those who had fought in the Civil War were seen, the term “Soldier’s Heart” came into use.

Experts - 'soldier's Heart' And 'shell Shock:' Past Names For Ptsd | The Soldier's Heart | FRONTLINE | PBS

Had not heard of "Soldier's Heart" before. Thanks for the information.

CFrance I also believe that holding a job was typically the last thing to go with a person suffering from PTSD. Alcoholism, social issues, daily anger, family issues, divorce, and destructive self esteem usually precede loosing ones job. (if at all). The job is usually the easiest to hold onto.

Well, at least their marriage held together. The family was so critical of him. It couldn't have helped.

To the OP, I for one am glad the condition has been identified and is being studied for a possible solution. My belief is it has always been there.

Post Traumatic Stress disorder has been mentioned as a factor in the mass shooting in California this week. The young man had seen action. However I read an article from a credible source that said his high school track coach said he had attacked her. She did not report it. That suggests to me that he had anger issues early on and could have had mental issues then.

Some things we will never know. It does seem that the moral fabric of our society is torn in a way that I have never realized or at least not been aware of in my long life. I don't know if it is how we are raising our children, handing them over early to others, or if it has to do with the enormous problem of drug addiction, or if we as a society have turned away from rules and are playing some game of see what I can get away with.

I am sure I am not alone in saying it breaks my heart.

Technology has advanced way past our early time and far more information is available now than ever before. I don't think things have changed too much, just different. Every generation seems to think things are getting worse, not better. From my perspective, my children have had far more opportunities than we did.

one reason it may seem you hear more about it since Vietnam and the Middle East wars is how they were fought. In these wars, there was no sense of "safety" being "behind the lines". It is often not possible to know who was threat. so the "fight or flight" response was always on, flooding the body and mind with adrenaline. So always in constant stress. As for other wars, as others said, my mother said my father was never the same...he certainly had the anger part.

If you look back in history you will see that things are no different than they have always been it is just magnified and intensified now by publicity. There was moral corruption dating back to the beginning of time that is well recorded in history, mass murders and depravity are nothing new.

Agree. The only thing different is the immediate availability of news through advancements in technology.

In this day and age I don't think Hitler would have been able to use his ultimate solution. News would have somehow leaked out through technology on what was happening. Although, we knew what was happening in Bosnia and we had the technology and the world did little to stop that, so who knows!!!!

In the UK what we now accept as PTSD. was often put down as LMF. (Lack of Moral Fibre, ie, cowardice) on soldiers records during WW1.
Later during that war it became known as Shell Shock, and began to be accepted as a medical condition. But still the attitude of many was "Pull yourself together, and get on with it"
In later life I realised why my own father, when he came home from WW2 was a bit 'different' to other dads.
His Infantry regiment fought across N.Africa, and up through Italy, so he probably had PTSD. God knows what he saw and had to do, because he never ever said a word about it to anyone. He found his peace in Spiritulism. I wish he had lived longer, so I could have spoken to him about it when I was older, or even just got to know him better, but he died five years after he came home, a stranger to me really.
All them years ago, and I still feel so sad when I think about it.

My father in law was a purple heart veteran and he never spoke about it to anyone, even his wife and sons even though he lived into his eighties. I don't know how he dealt with it but he somehow did.

First of all..............Thank you all for your service to our country. I think this is one thing everyone on ToTV can agree upon (there ain't many blanket agreements).

Second, thank you for the information on this thread.

My father served in WWII & Korean War. He is still alive, but he too has always been very quite about his service to our country. Proud, just very quite. He has mentioned friends who have had many difficulties in the immediate return years.

My uncle Bill lost a leg, arm and part of his skull as well as 6 of the other members of his 8 man squad when a Panzer tree burst hit above them when they were landing on Anzio.

I took care of him for three months before he went into a nursing home in Itasca, IL and he would sometimes have daytime terrors where he would be reliving some event from the war especially that landing on Anzio. Other times he would ask a family member if she too saw the naked Indian in the room. Not sure if he was pulling our collective legs or not.

He was quite the Itasca hometown hero and treated extremely well but just about everyone. Quite a nice man as well as a WWII hero.

Did have some mental problems from the war injury especially as his age brought on dementia and other problems. I was in Itasca in the Fall of 1994.

I helped other vets when I volunteered at the Veterans of Foreign Wars hospital in Reno, Nevada in 1977-1978 for a year of Saturday afternoons. These were from the Spanish American War through Vietnam.

The Vietnam vet had fallen out of a helicopter and then later played a game with a pool cue up his nose and got bumped by a "friend" and it went up into his brain. He did have various cognitive problems because of this injury.

None of these vets in the long term care section of the hospital seemed to want to talk about their war experiences that I can recall.

A number of them passed during that year of Saturdays unfortunately but these were for the most part those who were pretty much confined to their rooms because of their medical conditions.

Absolutely not. I just wanted to educate myself about the very real, serious, health issue. I only mentioned the previous generation as a comparison to try and understand if, due to the stigma, they just buried their pain and did not get the help that anyone should be entitled to. That includes everyone, including first responders and all those affected by any trama.

I apologize as I am very new to TOTV and in no way was I questioning this vet real, serious health issue.

I made this comparison as an example only as I was wondering why, the past generation was so silent when many of them went through extreme trama. I think I have gotten a good response and going forward will have a better understanding. I would never doubt this diagnosis.

Thank You for following up Clydles1, You are well within the boundaries of asking a GREAT question to get knowledge and speak about a very important subject. I'm thrilled to see that your inquiry was asked to learn and not in a negative fashion. You might be new but I feel like I can speak for several people by saying welcome to you Thank You for educating me by starting this thread.

A person in my life took his Silver Star license plates off his vehicle after his last tour. He closes the blinds, is fanatical about home security, worse than others I know. He had been Clean and Sober for over 20 years before his last tour. He is not anymore. He wants to talk about it but can't. One of the people who had his life together the most out of many that I know and now he has seized up. So sad to see this GREAT person hurt so bad.

One other person I know has suffered since 9/11 and it is not good. Some things can't be unseen.

My uncle was on a destroyer in the Pacific Fleet during WWII and saw many of his comrades die. He suffered from depression for years afterwards, but came around with lots of support from his local VA Hospital.

Clyde. You do not have to apologise on here. The majority understood your OP and answered accordingly.

You are very right in saying that PTSD is not limited to the military. I think the study of brain related matters is just beginning to be understood and therefore we are seeing more diagnosis's like this for things that were just previously chalked up as mental illness, alcohol or substance abuse.

True true. My husband got a bronze star in Vietnam. Absolutely will not discuss Vietnam except on an extremely superficial level, and is the kindest, best father and husband. Some can handle it better than others. We will never know what he went through, and we respect his wish to not discuss.

The only thing he ever said... when he got back from Vietnam and returned to his parents' home, his mother used to rattle the screen door handle vigorously to call the cat in at night. It would make him sit stark upright in bed, thinking it was gunfire. She quit doing that.

I read an article one time about a study they did on children who had been through severe circumstances, poverty, abuse, homelessness etc. Some never lost hope and made it through to a better life and some just gave up. They said they felt that some of these children possessed "survivor genes" which I found to be very interesting since I think genetics affects so much in our lives.

After having reread the initial inquiry, and Nucky's response to it, I don't see anything there that would warrant such a talking down "mansplain". The inquiry posed a legitimate question. Things and times do change, so what was once known as "shell shock" is now PTSD, and treated differently than it was in the 40's and 50's. Just as the term "consumption" was later changed to tuberculosis.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

I will answer for my very active 95 year old father who was a medic in WWII, and served in the Battle of the Bulge. Five years ago he was diagnosed with PTSD, which wasn’t known about years ago. But the affects of the war had troubled him for a lifetime. The country rallied around those who served in WWII, and they all became heroes, which became a stronger focal point for them, instead of the emotional damage done. Korea and Vietnam soldiers fought and served valiantly, but we’re scarred emotionally and physically, and I believe were more alone with their experiences. They did not receive the same public support for their efforts, and had to internalize many of their feelings. PTSD is real. And you can’t just ‘get over’ the past. Nightmares and daily living are more difficult, a constant in their lives. That’s why here in The Villages we honor everyone who has served our country in the military. I hope that Veterans feel loved and appreciated here. Those of us who never went to war should always show honor and great appreciation to these men and women. To all of our veterans, we say “Thank you for your sacrifices and service.” Your lives have made a great difference to us! Michele Uss, Virginia Trace

I agree. There is much in today's research that suggests that the physiogony of the brain and behaviors may well be an inherited trait and the ability to withstand stress, as well as greater or less ability in social interchange is genetic. Dr. Ursula Bellugi at the Salk Institute has contributed greatly to this theory.

Having said that, some things happen to people at a vulnerable time in their lives and it changes them and they are unable to live without terrible memories that make them incapable of normal living. I think that humans are compassionate with others to the degree they have insight into this problem. Some people are born with less or more compassion and more or less mental ability that education cannot change, and insight cannot change. That makes crime and punishment a whole new issue. I don't know how future generations will deal with behavior that falls out of the perimeters of acceptable and "normal".

I think most responses address the issue of PTSD ... and I'm left wondering if the question was meant to imply that PTSD is not real.

If that's the implication then I'm hoping that the questioner will find that it is real - that it applies to first responders to terrible accidents as well as soldiers. The 911 Responders suffer as well. So do many cops and firemen.

And it has affected soldiers who never saw battle at all - because the training exercises to "get soldiers ready" for battle exposed them to massive brain trauma.

If anyone believes this is a diagnosis made up by some particular group - think again.

My 28 year old son died of an accidental overdose on Sept 22nd. He was an Iraq veteran diagnosed with PTSD and was on 100% disability. He had been out of the Army for 5 years and those 5 years were a nightmare for him and his family. He completed several programs to try to get better, even going to VA programs out of state because he wanted help. The last 5 years have seen times of hope and times of despair. Times of sobriety and times of relapse. He and we always held hope that things would get better but they would for a while only to return. He could not sleep, could not maintain a relationship with a significant other, and his anxiety in social situations was off the chart. I say this because before I had a family member with this problem I was skeptical of PTSD but never again. I hope the OP wasn’t inferring that, and I assume he wasn’t. I know whatever it’s called , whether battle fatigue, shell shock, etc. the horrors of battle in all wars, whether the Civil War, WW II, etc has left veterans that were never the same.

Although this post was originally about post-war survivors, the concept of resilience is the survivorship of trauma. Some people have it and some don't, but we aren't sure why. My Dad survived the Battle of Okinawa in WWII after his ship USS Hugh W. Hadley (there is a website) was bombed. We were fortunate to attend several of the reunions and hear the stories that these sailors shared. It was in this shared experience that these sailors had bonded as survivors.

Traumatic events affect everyone, but not everyone displays what we call PTSD. (In the future, terms may change as we learn more and better identify signs and symptoms.) Dad had this resilience and went on to live a wonderful and productive life.

We see this in children as well...some survive poverty, trauma, abuse and become productive citizens and some do not. There is work going on to figure out why and how to develop resilience. Think of hammering nails into a 2X4 and then pulling them out. The holes are still there, but some compromise the integrity of the board and some do not. It affects their learning and their development of social relationships. I could go on and on, but simply wanted to respond to the query with children. Finally, treat everyone with respect. We have no idea what they may have survived.

I can try. It's always been an after effect of war, it just didn't have that name before, and we didn't have the Internet so we didn't hear so much about it. After returning home from Vietnam, my then brother in law shot himself in the head, in his parents home on Christmas Eve...... he died Christmas Day. As I said, it's always been an after effect of war, now it has a name.

Resilience, that is exactly the term that was used in the article I read. Thank you for reminding me. I find these studies fascinating.

My heart is breaking over the responses I have received. I thank you all and hopefully I can use this knowledge and help. I would encourage anyone suffering not to be afraid to reach out. Mental health is just as important as physical!

I remember my uncle who was in ww2, they also called it war nerves. I guess for a lack of a better term?