Leaving flag stick in the hole creating new problems.....torn up holes.
 

Played Heron this morning and it was so very obvious the new rule of leaving the flag stick in is now facilitating abuse of the hole opening.
Almost every single hole had some portion of the cup edge broken or crushed out of shape.

So now the the course destroying non divot fillers, non ball mark fixers and non raking bunker players we can add the flag jerking and putter ball retrieving hole tearer uppers.

We still play with the flag out of the hole.

The new rule is just plain stupid. No benefit what so ever with destructive results only.

No problem at all where I played today outside of The Villages

Only partially agree with you...

Those who insist on trying to remove their ball with a device while the flag is still in is a big negative. Couldn't agree more. But for knowledgeable, caring golfers, the rule is a good one.

Our group plays by the agreement that if you want the flag out, you ask for it to be removed. Otherwise it stays in. It stays in for us almost all the time...and our pace of play on the greens has definitely improved. And of course we remove the ball from the hole by hand.

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I think it's a great new rule.

I recall reading a study by Pelz about 30 years ago that said he did an in-depth study and his recommendation was that us amateurs...should always leave it in (when possible back then).

He posited that the stick can/will slow momentum, thereby allowing gravity to have a better chance of overcoming inertia...thus a better chance of the ball falling in the hole.

As for those who try to jerk the ball out of the hole using the flagstick, I've had to stop a number of experienced golfers that I play with often (who DO fix ball marks/rake bunkers/sand divots) from doing just that...and should know better. :oops:

I've even offered to get their ball for them, which is usually enough to shame them into bending over...and picking their ball out of the hole by hand.

I've been toying with ideas on inventing a device, such as the current suction cups, to put on the end of putters that would get the ball out of the hole with the stick in...without damaging the hole.

And as I point out to those who try to jerk it out with the stick, a lot who already have the suction cup on their putter handles, why don't they just pull the stick...and then use their suction cups? :ohdear:


First world problems and struggles...are real. :D

In thinking further about it (and staying on topic :oops:), I'll bet it won't be long before cup/stick manufacturers come up with a design similar (lighter and curled on the edges, so it won't mark the greens when laid down?) to what is used on most putting greens so that the flagstick has a base on it...thereby making it easier to pull the ball out of the hole by pulling out the flagstick.

In fact, having a broader base might also help keep the flag straighter when the wind is blowing and/or...when the cup is not cut perfectly.

Soooo, never mind about inventing a device for the end of the grip to pull the ball out with the stick in.

Gee, I just saved myself...a whole lot of cerebral work. :D

Once again I must reconsider what I said.

:D

There's no shame in being correct once in a while...even if it was accidental. :1rotfl:

Considering many executive courses are nearly bald, bone dry, and with a crumbling surface, I am suprised that there is not more damage around the cups.

What courses are you playing?
Steve

Most between 466 and 466A.
Pimlico, Churchill Greens and Belmont are a disgrace.

I disagree completely about the flag causing problems.

The new rule is not the problem.
Not needing to pull the flagstick is not the problem.
Removing your ball from the cup with the flagstick in the hole is not the problem.

The problem is the human EFFECT of these. Laziness, Ego, lack of consideration for others, uncaring for property, etc etc.

If a player cannot bend down to remove the ball with the flagstick in, ask fellow players for assist. Or remove the stick THEN insert your removal tool.

We, too, have seen the condition of Exec courses declining - esp care of bunkers and greens and teebox areas. I would hope some education reinforcement would help - notices/pictures at the Starter windows, and mention by Starters & on-course Staff.

disagree...the holes were being damaged even worse when the flags were taken out due to people using the ball cup on the end of the putter and standing to far from the hole thus crushing the edge. Then you have the people using their putter head to take the ball out of the hole doing even worse damage.

Leaving the pin in is NOT the cause of hole damage! The new rule is great...speeds up play and gives more depth perception for hole location. You can always remove the pin to retrieve your ball if you aren't coordinated enough to get it out with the pin in the cup.

Bingo!!!!!! It would do a lot of people a lot of good if they bent over to pick their ball out of the hole with their hand. Please get rid of those silly things on the grip of your putter and get a bit of stretching exercise. And DO NOT under any circumstances retrieve the ball with your putter or any other club.

We played Chula Vista yesterday and noticed the rims of the cups were damaged.

I cannot help but smile when the "speed of play" is mentioned.....in any context here in TV.

The supposed amount of time saved by not removing the flag stick is relatively insignificant compared to the other actions that would save much, much more time.
Ready golf? Get in the cart and take the clubs to the next hole then put them away.

Some what off my topic but just could not resist.....speed of play in TV......:1rotfl:

Good point. But don't you realize all the PGA pro's who live and golf here :)

So a small improvement in speed of play does not matter...because play is slow in TV? Hmmm. I’ll have to ponder that one a bit.

That is one conclusion a person can make, however it was not remotely in my thinking when writing the post, smiling.

Point taken. :)

If you are a golfer, you will use your hand or pull the stick out and use the suction cup. If you are a hacker.......learn the game, fix ball marks, fill divots, and use your hand, not the lip on you putter, to retrieve your ball. Before the rule change, too many cups were damaged with players pulling the ball from the cup by the blade end of their putter and damaging the edges of the cup.....then complaining when their putt lipped out. If you can’t bend over, use the word “gimmie”.

It’s not the rule that’s stupid. It’s the Villagers, most of whom are not golfers but people on a golf course. The rule has had little effect on Championship course cup conditions.

Ohiobuckeye
 

I have mixed feelings about what your saying but basically some people just don't care or they're just to lazy to fix the hole, because it's not their money that their maintaining the golf course with. My biggest problem is ball marks on greens. You can just about figure out who knows etiquette on golf courses. So often I see men hitting from the back tees (black) & women hitting from the men's tees (gold) on executive courses. & a lot of them hit a ball about as far as they can throw. You made a great point though!:clap2:

I AGREE. I would rather see the ball drop in the hole than try to hit it more firmly, hoping it hits the pin and goes in. AND, does it speed up play in the Villages? I doubt it. We are seniors, speeding up our game and to what end? Chopping up the lip of the cup for the next foursome-not good. Drop this new ruling. That is my opinion. Thank you.

Please take care of our golf courses.

The rule of leaving the flag stick in is not a stupid rule or even a bad rule. What we have in abundance in TV is BAD GOLFERS! People do repair ball marks, replace and fill divots, or rake bunkers. They also abuse the hole because they are too lazy to properly remove their ball from the hole. If you are so infirm that you cannot properly remove your ball from the hole, I suggest you stop playing golf and take up something less strenuous. Like cards.

One point that I do not see raised in this thread is the changing of the cups. While I certainly concur that it is the golfers causing the cup problem, one of the reasons you don’t see it on Championship courses is the frequency the cups are moved. It’s daily on Championship in most cases. Not so on the Exec courses. Leave pins in, take them out is not going to make a substantial difference in the pace of play on execs. Repairing ball marks will be a problem as long as there are executive courses in The Villages. With regard to those plastic things on the end of a putter, I watched a guy last week use one for 9 holes but you should have seen how quick he bent down to pick up a quarter he found in the cart parking area.

And how do these same folks get their T in the ground to drive from??

I guess I don't understand why leaving the pin in destroys the hole.. seems continually pulling it out and replacing would have that affect. Nothing wrong with the new rule. Its a choice

Because the uninformed/elite/screw the rules crowd insist on retrieving their ball from the hole with the flag in and using their putter to fish the ball out or a ball retriever on the end of the putter or they jerk the flag stick out to pop their ball out......all of which do damage to the edges of the cup.

It is not the rule of leaving the flag in or the flag being in to play out.....but the inconsiderate golfers who do the above.
They all belong to the same group that never follow ANY golf etiquette or consideration for the course or other players.

I just don't understand why people leave it in. There are very few pros that leave it in for putts under 20 feet and those guys are making a living out of golf. Personally, I had one putt dead center in the hole, hardly moving and it hit the flag and bounced back towards me. NEVER again will I leave the flag in.

Leave It In (poke here)

Goes to show that the Pros don't read that crap in golf magazine!

It is a shame how some people don't care what they do. Same type of people that throw trash along the road.

Courses should adapt the flag sticks similarly to putting green sticks. Where there is a plate at the bottom of the stick that pulls the ball out when the stick is removes. Easy retrieval and no damage to the hole.

May have a downside, but sounds at first blush like a good idea, especially in an area like TV.

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also the thinner fiberglass sticks may be a help in solving this problem. They are far lighter and easier to remove .

The thing abbout Gimmes is they start off at 6-12 inches, and finish at 2-3 feet. Putt out!