TV Restriction Violations
 

My wife and I will be moving to TV within the next year and we have a question. (Sorry Tony if this isn't the correct place)

If someone is in violation of one of the restrictions how does TV go about enforcing it? For example, if someone's grand-kid comes to stay 25 days in June and then comes back in August for another 25 days, how is someone to know if it's the same one or a sibling or another or does anyone pay any attention to the 30 days per year rule.

If you are in violation of a deed restriction,, you will get a note on your front door the first time. If you are see the guy putting the note on and are quick you can ask him about the violation, If you don't heed the note, you will get a registered letter and you can call and ask what them to explain the violation and then plead ignorance and have them come out and explain it to you.

North of 466, they are going to allow the CDDs to actual fine the homeowners for violations. Somewhere in the www.districtgov.org website there is a page with the fines.

To answer your question, there are many neighbors that keep tabs on the visiting children and will call and complain if they recognize a child that has been here more than 30 days - even in multiple visits. I suspect that if the children are well mannered and do not make much noise, then you might get away with it. Just don't brag or advertise it.

I wonder what kind of teeth the CDD has to collect fines. If the finee refuses to pay, what can they do? Specially if this authority was granted after the deed restrictions were signed by homeowners. Seems like they can't institute a new policy after the fact.

Little Surprised
 

I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't jumped all over this ,,,,,
When your sweet little darling grandchild comes for a visit you have to get him (or her) a visitors pass if they want to go to the pools or Rec Centers..
They are only allowed to visit an accumulation of thirty days a given year.
This is recorded on the Rec Computer and if you exceed that limit it will refuse to issue a pass.......
You can sneak him (or her) in but they won't have a pass to visit the POOLS or Rec Centers......Not to mention the Golf Courses...........

This is my understanding and I suppose its possible that I could be wrong , I was once before in 1969 but later found out they really did go to the Moon.

Fumar

Thanks a bunch for your replies. We are happy to hear this. We don't have any grand-kids ourselves, but don't really have any objections to others, but rules are rules.

They can attach fines to your amenities fees , And if you don't pay , You don't play........
Hows that for teeth ,

You're probably on to something.....

fines
 

Oh great and beneficent fumar, I too was once thought to be incorrect, but mrs mulligan told me I could be right just that one time. That being said, I believe Florida statute allows the county to apply a lien for uncollected fines. One more case when I might be wrong.

How do the authorities know it's the same kid. Fingerprints? DNA testing?

The grand kids was just an example. There are other rules and regulations in place that have to be adhered to. I didn't mean to start up a case for CSI.

We have one grandchild in Florida and one on the way. We will probably be the ones visiting them since there will be a newborn. I truly hope that I'm not in a neighborhood that the neighbors are counting the amount of visits we have from family or watching for things to report to "the authorities". Personally, if my neighbor had a child visiting several times, the visits weren't excessive and the child was well behaved and wasn't bothering anyone or interupting the TV lifestyle, I'm going to ignore it. Now if that child were living there, then that child has to leave.

But that's one reason we want to move to TV and if one rule is ignored for one reason or another, then it won't be long before the whole comcept fails. Parents and grandparents aren't the best judge of how well behaved their children/grandchildren are.

Greg, I agree. What I mean is, I don't want to be next to someone who will take things to the extreme. Like the one watching with binoculars and has counted a child at someones house 31 days in the last twelve months. Personally, I will abide by all the restrictions to the letter. If someone near me is violating a rule, I will talk to that person about it before I report them, and would hope they would do the same. As I said, I do agree with you and am going to TV for the same reasons. And I will have no problem reporting someone who can't be reasoned with.:thumbup:

OK good enough.

I guess we're done talking about dogs peeing areas and now we're concerned if a kid stays 31 days instead of 30. Hey maybe after 30 days we should put them in a fenced area out back ( I forgot NO fences) O well as long as noone breaks a rule, COMRAD

I do know of a couple of kids living in TV in direct violation of the covenants. In one instance, the father died and the mother is serving in Iraq. The neighbors are well aware of the grandchild living there. They also know the circumstances. The grandparents are aware they are in violation but everyone felt it was in the best interests of all for the child to stay here. The grandparents actually spoke to each of their neighbors to explain the situation and all are in agreement that the child can stay for two years. The child is quiet and well-behaved and the darling of the block. Pool use is a non-issue -- they have their own pool. Neighbors fight to babysit. I doubt they would be as willing if it were a permanent situation but it is temporary and the child is truly adorable.

In the other situation that I know of, the grandparents were not as forthright and it is creating major issues. Odds are the grandparents will be selling their home and moving away -- they have custody of their grandson, who has some major issues. No one has reported them but the neighbors are pretty unhappy.

There are other rules broken in TV -- some deliberate, some completely unknowingly. I got a notice because my Queen Palm was trimmed on a Saturday but pick up wasn't until Wednesday. I thought it was okay to leave the fronds in the driveway. Apparently not. This was one time I ignored the notice since I knew it would be taken care of before anything could be done.

I have a neighbor working on his antique car in the driveway -- a definite no-no. He'll continue doing so until Community Watch stops it. He cleans up every afternoon and if the car isn't going to be worked on the following day, it goes into the garage. Most of us in this development won't report him. I'm sure one snowbird will if she comes down before the work is done.

The point is rules are broken and, personally, I think things should be taken on a case-by-case basis. A lot will depend on the neighbors as to what happens. Some things (unkempt lawns/weeds/dirty exterior) will be reported by CW when noticed. Some things will only come to light if someone complains. Some things will be discovered by TV because of ID cards, etc., especially now that everyone over the age of 1 must have some sort of card to use any TV facility.

I'm curious. Can children in their 30s and 40s live with their parents in The Villages? I know of one young fellow (maybe 35) in Chatham who lives with his parents. He wanders the streets after dark. While he appears to be harmless, people have been startled to see him plodding down the road at all hours of the night. There was one neighborhood report that he became confused and wandered into the wrong house late one evening.

He will be gone for months, then return for months. It's kinda strange.

A question to the wise ones?
 

An in area guest gets a guest pass good for 1 year, who counts to see how many days in a year their children are here? What's fair is fair. As to the question of why a child would want to stay longer let's figure this out, Mom & Dad aren't here, pools, golf cart, music, eating out, nice weather, staying up late. Sounds pretty good to me. I know my grandaughter can't wait to come down in August.

Gee, I don't think anybody is talking about 31 days instead of 30. (The specific example in the initial question was about a child visiting for 25 days, leaving, returning for 25 days.)

I have two issues with this. The smaller one BY FAR is: Say only 20 percent of Villagers believe the rules don't apply to them. Today that would be about 16,000 Villagers. Now 16,000 kids overstaying an extra month here and an extra month there, on top of the allowable visitations, is significant.

I agree with Redwitch about isolated hardship cases. But the attitude, oh, who would know if I let my grandchild visit for two months-- no. It adds up. By all means visit your grandkids often. Invite them down for a month. But please, respect your neighbors and the covenance you signed your name to.

The larger issue to me BY FAR is, what the heck are we teaching our children anymore. My parents taught us not to lie and cheat. They set the example. They would never in a million years let us catch them lying or cheating, nor tolerate it if we did. How else do children learn integrity?

YES, we are talking about a little white lie here. Getting a visitor pass under a false name, or however you pull it off. So now the grandchild has a false name on his or her visitor pass. Do you then tell the child to use a different name on the second visit? Do you let your grandchild catch you in a lie!? Can you then teach him or her not to lie and cheat?

Sure, everyone tells little white lies. But in front of the grandchildren? Really?

I believe that you are completely and absolutely right.

Hi,
I am new to these boards, but have to put my 2 cents worth in. :D Pturner, I think you could become my new best friend. I totally agree with your statement, esp. about what we are teaching our children, and the lack of morals overall today. Everyone just wants to do what they want, and no one has any consideration for any one. Slightly off topic for a min. but twice lately, I have been in the ladies room and discovered a mother has brought her son in there with her. OK, normally this does not bother me as I understand some of the risks involved with children and strangers in the restrooms. I can understand Mothers being cautious when in airport BR's or large public areas with more than 1 exit. BUT, both of these instances were at local , family oriented reataurants with smal BR's with only 1 entrance and exits. AND in both cases, the boys wer not little. The first case involved 2 boys at least 13 or 14. And the last case involved a boy who was at least 11 or 12. What if I had spilled something on my blouse and had to remove it to clean the area. HELLO???? Sorry for the long story to make a point that no one cares about anything except what works for them.
In the case of children in TV-my husband and I are moving from the town I grew up in-I have never lived anywhere else except when I was a baby. We are selling our house, and so many things that were so important to us because we want to downsize. We are leaving friends and family, wonderful doctors and vet. to move to an area that is 55 and over. We would not be doing this if we thought the area is going to be less than what we have been told. I don't mean to be unsympathetic to the child that lost his father, and his mother is in the service. But if you let that child live in TV, what will stop someone else having the same story-which is all to common these days-where the grandparents wind up raising their grandchildren for numerous reasons. How can you let one and not the others? And maybe the child is quiet and behaves now, but what about the future. And if that family breaks a rule and gets by with it, how can you truely enforce other rules? Is there a list of rules it is ok to break, and a list of rules that should be enforced?? I appologize for the length of my response, but we are going to a lot of time, money and trouble to move to our wonderful retirement home, and it is not fair for people to decide what rules they individually are going to observe--or not.

Pturner I agree with you and VT2TV - I HAVE to agree with you.:kiss:

Sounds like he may have a mental illness. Anyway, the simple answer is yes -- so long as the child is over 19, they can live permanently with their parents, friends, lovers, on their own .....

As a teacher I agree that parents and grandparents are not always the best judge as to whether a child has good behavior.

Do remember that this child is not using any TV facilities and all neighbors are in total agreement to this child staying until the mother comes back. I'm not saying it is right to break the rules, but I do believe that there should be exceptions to rules, especially if those affected by this breaking are not only okay with it but are thrilled that the rule is being broken (the neighbors LOVE this child and are happy to be its great-aunts and uncles -- they literally fight to babysit). Sorry, folks, but sometimes I think compassion is more important than any rule (I will stop on the side of a road to help a lost animal even though signs are posted saying no stopping). Also, this child does not have an ID card that I know of. The grandparents aren't lying to anyone, they're just not informing TV that a child is living with them and the neighbors are happily keeping silent as well. So far as I know, had even one neighbor objected, they would have found another solution to having their grandchild live with them.

I don't know about you, but I have been told that omitting to tell something is the same as lying. I believe it is called lying by omission. The neighbors are just as guilty as the violators. Those grandparents should take that grand-child and move/rent in an appropriate location until the child can be with his/her parent.

I'm with Redwitch on this one. If all those affected are ok with this, and no facilities are used, why on earth would anyone care if this child is there?
Compassion is a wonderful thing. I think a lot of folks should lighten up or find another ax to grind, preferably one which affects them.

Stick by the rules..
 

You either have rules or you don't . If you start making exceptions then the rules are gone.......Our community is a beautiful place because of the rules .start braking them and there goes the neighborhood....There are hardship cases everywhere so we have to be careful how we lean..
We pay a high premium for our houses here because of our unique lifestyle , and I for one don't want to get very flexible on the rules...There will always be a neighbor who wants to plant a milkweed in the middle of his front yard and convince you that he will dig it up as soon as the season is over....Now I know this couldn't really happen because some dog would pee on it anyway ...
Rules are rules folks , if we ignore them we'll all end up living like they do in New York, or Chicago or Wildwood... oops , well you know what I mean...

by the numbers fumar ............:22yikes:

No, I did not forget that the child is not using any facilities. That is not the issue. First of all, unless you are not only the grandparent in question, but also every neighbor in the area in question, you really cannot speak as to how they truely feel about the child and also about him staying there. There are many people who would go along with what they are told to do in fear that they would be ostracized by the grandparents and the grandparents friends. I agree with previous poster that not telling TV is in itself lying and blatently disregarding the rules. If they think what they are doing is ok, what would be the harm in disclosing the facts to TV? Secondly, keeping the child at TV is not really a good environment for the child if you are being honest. Even infants and toddlers need the social interaction of their age group--even if it is only for a couple of years. Keeping the child around adults and seniors for an extended period-even those who adore the child will adversly affect the child's developement. I do agree that we all need to be compassionate, and if letting in children did not affect anyone but the g-parents, I would say --good luck. But if one breaks the rules, I can guarantee that it will only snowball, and if you do it for one, you must do it for everyone.
Lastly, I learned tonight that one family member does not even need to be 55 because of some 80/20% law. So actually there is nothing to stop people in their 20's, 30's, or 40's from moving into the villages. When you start bringing in people of that age, I guess you can expect many children to follow, and perhaps provide that interaction for that chld living in TV. I am not happy about that, and the sales people certainly didn't tell us that. I personally want to move to TV to get away from children running around. All this is JMHO. BTW---I am glad you stop to help animals:thumbup:, and i honestly don't think anyone is doing the child a favor by keeping him in TV-perhaps the g-parents could move somewhere nearby where the child could be with others his own age.

We do not adhere to all of the Villages Rules
 

any more than we obeyed all the laws in the state and municipalities from which we came. How many of us have had a man with a lantern walk in front of our cars at night? Everyone of us have lived or driven through states or communities where this is still the law. Sodomy, both homosexual and heterosexual, remains illegal in a number of states even if it is between consenting adults or husband and wife. Here in Florida, for example, it is against the law to tie your elephant to a parking meter or take your shower naked. There are literally thousand of such laws in every state in the Union as well as for the nation. Google 'dumb laws' in Google - you can be very amused by the seeming idiocy by today's standards of most of these laws.

So what does this have to do with The Villages? Everything! 99% of us ignore the rule on post signs that specifies the size, shape and coloring of sign background and letters. Illuminated post lamps signs are strictly a no-no. I discovered this when a went to a local merchant and tried to order a sign. He had a copy of the rules and would make only signs that conformed to them. Go look it up. Other rules are simply ignored if they are occurring for only a short time. My neighbor parks his boat in the drive the day before and the day after a race. In the meantimes he parks it off property. Should I object? It would kill his lifetime passion. How many lawn mowers to you hear fired up before 8 AM? Do I report my neighbor for wanting to complete his lawn work before the heat of the day? Another one of my neighbor's lawn became overgrown while he was in the Hospital and his wife did not know what to do. Should we have reported the situation or simply do what we did - a group of us going out mowing, edging, trimming and weeding?

What we need is not rigid adherence to the rules but rather a little bit of common sense and neighborliness. All of us came to the Villages to enjoy ourselves. To those who disagree, I recommend the 'Golden Rule'.

JMHO

What's wrong with you folks? The kids Dad is dead and his Mom is serving this country overseas. We should be helping not threating to report for breaking a rule.
In Russia they used to have a person on each block to keep awatch on everything done and said, anything out of line or in conflick with the rules of the state was reported to the K.G.B.


"FRIENDILY?" O.K.

I wonder if TV has just become too big too effectively monitor/enforce restrictions and convenants? With over 70,000 people and 30,000 households maybe it's just not feasable.

I'm all for them and feel if you have them they need to be enforced fairly for everyone. Might be easier in smaller communities?

Ok, I find this is be an interesting issue and I am not taking sides here but what happens when you make an exception to a rule and someone down the road gets turned in? Is the answer it was ok then but not now? Point I am trying to make is that when you make one exception you quite possibly are opening a can of worms.

Oh Buc.

That is sad indeed. BBQman your examples are silly. Rules are made for us here to be comfortable in a retirement community. Who among us does not love children?

Please read again P.Turners post.

Redwitch, if this place were administered on a case to case situation it would be hopelessly mired in red tape just like the rest of this country. Who decides what? I believe that if it were MY grandchild, I would rent out my house, it is not that hard in TV. All of us have unforseen difficult circumstances that occur from time to time.

And truly, as it has been stated, the houses do cost more than in other areas. If we wanted to live with different rules, we could get a lot more house elsewhere.

I am really not as heartless and mean as this sounds. It is just the kind of thing I wanted to escape in TV. There are so many problems calling out to any of us who have been raised to be responsible and especially those with kind hearts.

P.S. The rules say that boats and campers and RVs can be parked for a short time.... I think.

Compassion seems to be old fashioned as well, at least on this thread.
It's doubtful that anyone really wants the child to live with the grandparents. This is a temporary state until his mom returns from her overseas tour.
Apparently it would be preferable for the child to live in a box, under a bridge, as long as there were other kids around so he could be properly socialized.
Oh, yeah, they can rent out the house and move for a few months. That'll serve them right. Imagine them having the nerve to inconvenience their neighbors. Wait a minute, the neighbors support this living arrangement. Who's being hurt? Doesn't matter does it. Rules are rules. Never, ever, ever bend a break a rule, no matter what the reason. Next thing you know, we'll have folks moving in here who'll go through the express line with 16 items. Before you know it people will be taking a mulligan on the golf course.
If anyone has never broken a rule and will never, ever break a rule, step forward. Anyone ever have another person look the other way when they broke a rule? If a trooper fails to write you a ticket when you passed him or her doing 45 in a 40, how often do you turn around and insist that they issue you a summons. Rules are rules, right?
A world without compassion would be a sad place. Give these folks a break.

I believe that has been discussed. The neighbors support this living arrangement. Whether or not you believe them is another story. All we know is what they say.
I suspect the only thing you would believe is that the neighbors told a big, fat lie and would really like the kid on the next thing smoking out of TV.

That's where things get sticky.

Should there be a disclaimers in all of the restrictions that reads "unless all of the neighbors agree?".

aside from the no children past 30 days rule
 

Back to how they enforce violations: yesterday at the pool our id's got checked - we asked what they do if you don't have your id. The answer sounded like "It depends."

For instance, this guy said he would note it on his report pad (I think just for himself) and if a day or two later the same thing happens with the same people, he might write a warning.

If he thinks someone has guests consistently from the 3 counties that I don't think can qualify for guest passes, or for flagrant flaunting of the id rule (such as he said he has one guy that is refusing to carry/show his pass just because he doesn't like the rule), then it is possible to have someone's ID use rescinded for a period of time in punishment. Couldn't play golf, use pools or use rec centers. I don't think he can do it on his own, probably has to go thru channels and someone higher up or some committee may have to approve this, not sure.

I think that rescinding IDs is what they have done to those residents found cheating the golf system in the past.

I really didn't mean to start such an issue. I was simply trying to say that sometimes the rules are broken and, if they are, it is frequently up to neighbors to do what they feel is necessary. In the one instance, the child is here for the two years. End of conversation. In the other, the child will probably be gone pretty soon because a neighbor will report the child living there (he is totally out of control -- probably has foetal alcohol syndrome or effect), plus the grandparents do have their house on the market -- this child will grow up with the grandparents. It is not a temporary situation.

Given a choice, I would much rather live next door to a child than next door to an adult child/grandchild who just got out of drug rehab, is taking psychotropic drugs for a severe mental illness or is on parole/probation. Yet, these examples can stay here because they are all over 19 and I personally know of a few cases (one of whom lives two doors from me -- YUCK).

For visible violations, Community Watch will take action. If the weeds or lawn are out of control, a notice is left on the door. If not taken care of within the time limits, TV will have it done for you; you will get billed for the work plus a fine of some sort (you don't pay and it goes on your amenity bill and then a lien on your home).

As to the ID card issue, it really is up to whomever is checking IDs. Some will absolutely deny you entrance to the rec center or pool, although there is a form you can/should fill out if you forgot your ID. If it is flagrant and ongoing, the odds are you will be reported and your ID suspended for a certain period of time. Again, it is up to whomever is doing the checking.

I've been known to forget my ID when playing bridge. Sometimes I have had to fill out a sheet stating that I am a legal resident and entitled to use the facilities (name, address, signature required). Sometimes I've just been waved through. It depends who is working, how well they know me, what their mood is.

Basically, TV is not perfect nor are its residents. Some will break the rules (heck, we all break one rule or another at one time or another -- it's the nature of our beasts). The majority here are over 55, law-abiding, respectful and, sadly, conservative. :throwtomatoes: :wink: Some homeowners are under 55 (still less than 20%, I believe). Some homeowners have children and/or grandchildren over 19 living with them for various reasons (temporary until child finds a job or recovers from an illness; temporary until child gets into trouble with the law or starts using drugs again; permanent due to illness -- physical or mental). The vast majority are truly wonderful people regardless of their age and political bent.

If you truly want to live in a society where rules are never broken, where everything is exactly as promised, I suggest you move to Arlington National Cemetary -- it might be one of the few places where the inhabitants truly are 100% in compliance.

If a person has their ID rescinded, do they have any redress? Can they appeal the decision? Is there a hearing? Is the decision of the CDD final and irreversible? Is it done by a committee, a arbitrator or a resident? Who determines the length of the sentence?