Misinformation in yesterdays post on R22 in older AC's
 

I just read yesterdays post about older units obsolete and found misinformation that was not addressed but the post has been marked closed. I am a small HVAC contractor here in The Villages and just want to be sure you have the factual information. I also want you to know that I am not posting this for gain To prove that to you. Based on all of the comments I have seen, since I moved to the villages last year, is that the contractor Chuck Farrell is the one I would use and trust when the time comes when I am no longer able to work. I have never met Chuck but it sounds like he is runs his business like mine performing quality service at a reasonable cost and is looking out for the best interests of his customers.

False Comment: R22 for older AC's is illegal. Some contractors are telling consumers it is illegal to use after the first of the year. That is FALSE!

Truth: R22 cannot be manufactured for sale in the United States as of Jan 1, 2020. Contractors can still purchase and install R22 into existing systems. It can be purchased from any of the supply house in the area.

Comment: R22 is expensive. That comment is true. R22 is about 5 times as expensive as R410A for me, a contractor, to purchase. Although it is 5 times more expensive I only charge the customer 1.5 times the cost of R-410A because most of what I charge for refrigerant is the labor to put it in which has not went up.

Comment: R22 systems cannot be retrofitted. That statement is FALSE!

Truth: There are a variety of choices for installing a different refrigerant. Only consider this option when a repair is being made that requires, or already has, the entire R22 removed. I carry on my truck only one of the many choices for retrofit. If you have a system that you decide to retrofit the company most likely will not have it on their truck and will be trying to sell you a new system because they do not want to buy an additional tank of the refrigerant you have in your system.

Comment: Systems only last 10 to 12 years. That statement has some truth but I generally consider it FALSE!

Truth: Most of the contractors in this area have been very successful in their training of their field personal in convincing the public of this. The majority of the service calls that I run are systems ranging from 10 to 23 years old. A lot of my customers have called me because they wanted a second opinion after receiving quotes that were very high for repairs with the recommendation to replace. Most of those recommended repairs were not needed or required. Here is the villages, many have the resources to replace their system when the parts warranty runs out (typically 10 years). If that gives you piece of mind, replace it. If your budget does not allow it, get a second opinion and be smart with how you spend your money. I recommend replacement when the compressor fails, physical damage (hit by car, hurricane, etc.) or a couple of other major repairs.

Fact: A new system is more efficient and will pay for itself in energy savings. That statement of 99% of the time FALSE.

Truth: There are plenty of apps you can download to check the savings based on the SEER rating. Most of the systems installed here are 12 or 14 seer. Moving up just 2 seer will only give you a sayings of 500 to 700 every five years, Yes, I said 5 years!

Fact: If your system is running and the tech is out for routine service and recommends expensive repairs with replacement being the most economical - CHECK A SECOND OPINION! Contact me or a contractor like Chuck Farrell.

Fact: Most companies lose money on service. If you chose a contractor based on being the lowest price of their tuneup or service contract realize they only make money when you purchase additional items or decide to replace your system.

Hope this helps you to be a better informed consumer.

Take care.
The Good Guy

Thanks Good Guy for this info. BTW, Munns has been exemplary for service of our unit.

And, folks, learn how to service your condensate line - once every six months and it's easy.

Search on "how to Clean Your AC Condensate Drain Line".

My guy tells me that really hot water works as well as vinegar, it has worked for me.

https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...OTV+Newsletter

Some points well taken, but in a larger context it's all beside the point, which is the quack-science bill-of-goods we've all been sold because of "ozone depletion".


Here are a list of problems/questions that nobody in the stupid Media bothered to ask when Time Magazine was publishing it's stupidly sensational stories about it 30 years ago:

1) Freon is heavier than air: how do molecules heavier than air get to 30,000 feet (the beginning of the stratosphere?

2) The "hole" in the ozone over the South Pole was "discovered" by satellites in the '80: if it was just "discovered", how do we know IT WASN'T THERE ALL ALONG ? ? ? ?

3) There is a perfectly logical reason why there is less ozone over the polar regions: THERE IS LESS SUNLIGHT THERE TO PRODUCE OZONE IN THE FIRST PLACE, especially in winter ("land of the midnight sun...") duhhh....

4) Antarctica (South Pole) has the highest average elevation of ANY continent (8000 ft): Does that have any effect on ozone quantity????? (The North Pole is all at sea level and there is no ozone "hole" there. (Why not?)

5) The offending atom is CHLORINE (!), not CFCs themselves. The argument goes that the CFCs carry CHLORINE up to the stratosphere. There are other compounds of chlorine in the atmosphere -- that's one of the things you smell when you go to the beach --> "salt water" --> i.e. sodium-chloride. Is the ocean a source of "ozone depleting" chlorine compounds?

I hope the public is beginning to see how idiotic this ozone scam-bullying is. Try getting a copy of the "paper" that started all this cr*p -- you can't, unless you pay for it.

The Ozone Scam
The Ozone Scam - YouTube

The Nonsense That is Ozone-Depletion
The Nonsense That is Ozone-Depletion by K Ring (2009)

Good Guy, thanks for the information and very reasonable discussion points.

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The deeper you look into the mess the EPA has made of the AC market, you start to realize: AC contractors aren't in the AC business, they are in the EPA-compliance business.


(DOE too.)

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Thanks....will look into this after I finish fortifying my home against chemtrails.

Thank Good Guy good info "Very helpful"

Here's how EPA has screwed up your car Air Conditioning:

Don't Buy Cars that Use this New Type of Refrigerant in the AC System - YouTube

What scares me around here is if your system dies in the middle of the summer and you actually DO need a new system they (the contractors) have you by the gonads WRT pricing. I think that is why many people feel they have to replace them BEFORE that happens. I won't do that but I dread the possibility. I guess that would be the perfect time to use The Villages Lifestyle rental. :)

Dear GoodGuysAir,

Can you tell us about R12 systems -- the "real" Freon?

[ I hear they are cold, low pressure, last forever, and that there are some systems from the 70's that are still around, "purring like kitties". ]

It's great you have the luxury of opting out to a Lifestyle rental.

How about all the Florida old ladies on fixed income who call their AC repair guy and hear "you need a new system, $6000 please"?


.

Could u give me your contact info ?

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rockandroller,

I agree with all of your comments. I sent a private message on some detailed thoughts.

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Why I'm not going to use R22 (Freon) replacements - YouTube


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I just deleted several comments I was making because I stopped to think about how my message was going to be taken. I we were taking on a phone or discussing this face to face you would see my level of agreement with your statements but at the same time be able to see I know, for me, it is just a simply a need to comply with the regulations.

In 1992 I was in a large ballroom at the refrigeration and air conditioning industry convention and show in Anaheim, California. I remember well some of the questions and answer given in that conference. How long before we will be able to see a reduction in the hole in the Ozone layer. The answer from the EPA was was "20 years"! The EPA spokeswomen responded to another question, If new refrigerants that were coming out do not have chlorine in them, would we still have to recover and dispose of them as R12 and R22 and the others? Her response was "yes". There was a followup question, "why".
Her answer was:
You have to understand, there is are a lot of of new businesses that that has have created for all of the equipment, tanks, transporting, recycling and incinerating contaminated refrigerant, we just can't shut those industries down.

2 years later I am reading a article in the Cincinnati Enquirer during my lunch break and saw a article titled, Hole in Ozone aver Antarctica Getting Smaller, in that article the comment from Deborah Ottinger, from the EPA, was that it was evidence that the Clean Air Act and regulations the EPA has introduced is making a difference. That was after she had said 2 years earlier it was going to take 20 years to see an effect.

Michael Labanz
The "Good Guy"
Good Guys Air Conditioning

Some points well taken, but in a larger context it's all beside the point, which is the quack-science bill-of-goods we've all been sold because of "ozone depletion".

Response to Back9
 

Love to watch Scotty!!

I agree! What a joke!

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Thank you for your honestly you are a gift to all of us. My hubby is also an heating/air conditioning person

Thanks for the video
 

I watched the video and have a few comments

REMEMBER: HARDLY ANY CUSTOMERS ASK TO RETROFIT THERE SYSTEM WITH A DIFFERENT REFRIGERANT (MAYBE 1 IN 500)

The term "drop in refrigerant" is not correct. There are no drop in refrigerants for R22 in the US. There was for R12 but not R22. The term means that you can just add what is needed to the existing refrigerant to get the system fully charged.

100 to 200 dollars for a pound of R22? I currently charge 79 per pound. He mentions 20-30 years ago we charge 10 per pound. That was when a tank of R22 was $50. Now that it is 500 or sometimes 800 per tank doesn't mean you charge 10 or 20 times as much. Most of the cost of what we charge is the labor to install it.

He mentions of loss of efficiency. When I do a maintenace on the system I always use a computerized instuments that verifies the correct air flow, refrigerant charge and measures the exact BTU output. On alternative refrigerants I have tested the BTUS go from, as an example 36,000 BTU's to 35,400 BTU's. The standard is on a system is to be within 10% of the rated BTU's. the actual will fluctuate based on conditions inside and outside.

He mentions you have to use a piston coil. He installs Goodman which is the keast espensive systems which do not have the depth of choices that Carrier branded (Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Heil) have.

Mike




Why I'm not going to use R22 (Freon) replacements - YouTube


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Back9 Back off,
 

Back 9,

Did you read the text?

I AM AGREEING WITH YOU!

Not arguing with you!

Those comments were the excuses the EPA gave to the HVAC industry, It is not my words

Please don't leave that comment up.

Mike

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There is no way anyone can tell for sure why the ozone layer changes. How long have we even been able to measure it, less than 100 years? The Earth is a living organism that ages on a scale of billions of years. We have no way of knowing how the ozone layer has fluctuated over that time or what if any cycles of change it may have. Science has an overblown view of what it knows and what it is actually capable of knowing.

LOL, I didn't say that I did (and I most certainly don't). Your comment is about little old ladies, my comment was about MY WIFE AND I if OUR system dies. Your comment is like saying "eat all your peas because there are hungry children in China." The "little old ladies" will deal with it the same way whether I stay in a hotel or not but if I have to run up my credit card for a week to keep my wife and I out of the inferno I'll do it because there is no way I'll sit in a 99 degree house nor will I pay $3000 more for a "rush system" because I need it NOW. $99 x 7 = $693 is a lot less to spend than getting rushed into spending $3000 more by a contractor because they know I am uncomfortable. I do feel bad for your "little old ladies" and if you are concerned about them please donate new A/C systems to the "L.O.L. FOUNDATION for replacement air conditioning systems" as I am sure they need your help. ;)

Thanks for taking the time to explain this.

Ok.
Just needed clarification.

I removed.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Yes, Scott Kilmer is single-handedly changing the auto industry, it looks.

Heating and Air guy from Ohio for over 30 years this person nailed everything. 100% correct.

Aren't these details beside the point?

Isn't the expensive mess EPA has made of the AC biz based on the quack-science of "ozone depletion"?

And are these stupid regs a cash jackpot for the AC contracting biz?

If not, can you address ANY of the serious problems with "ozone depletion" mentioned above?

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For the benefit of the AC consumer, please compare and contrast an R12 system with a 410a system.


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answer.
 

R12 and R22 freon compared to 410 coolant. I have taken the licensing required for all three, personally, whether you're talking about ozone or re-designing of equipment follow the money. Newer equipment is far more expensive and the energy difference is nominal. I am not a scientist but as a technician the government took something cheap and made it expensive. I will add that in many countries around the world mostly in developing countries freon is still in use in new appliances.

Can you elaborate on these costs with some actual numbers? I haven't really see a huge increase in the cost to replace a central AC system. And, it looks like the cost for the R410A refrigerant is only about 4 dollars per pound.