The Boundaries of Freedom
 

A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?

One more question to be added regarding morality: what is more important... one’s fellow man or the almighty dollar?

Interesting, and hitting upon an important point! Bravo.

One man's health (in today's world) is being balanced upon another man's economic well-being, and in some cases... lest we forget... his very SURVIVAL.

Did anyone miss the 4-mile auto backup for (FREE) food assistance in San Antonio.

I believe it's important to remember that a HUGE number or of US citizens are living pay check to pay check, and can't easily absorb 8+ weeks without income. For many, this goes incredibly far beyond an inconvenience.

As a child, I was taught by both my grandmother and my mother to “mind your business”. I think that applies to reporting people these days. Unless they’re pointing a gun in my direction, their actions and consequences are on their head.

I think it was ridiculous to shut down a country for this length of time. Be cautious yes, but live our lives.

As for the people, not dollars mindset .... well we need both. What good is being alive if you cannot take care of your family and pay bills. Eventually money and food will run out and anarchy will begin. I do not wish to live in the United States of Venezuela.

What good is life without (fill in the blank)?

Pretty good. With life you have options...………………….I VOTE FOR LIFE. Yes, I have thought about it again...yes I do.

I agree with gracie.

Therefore, our combined position is unassailable.

According to the statistics on the Johns Hopkins COVID-19 web site, currently the US has 722,000+ cases of COVID-19 and 33,900 deaths. That is with most of the country "shut down" for the past 3 to 5 weeks, depending on where one lives.

What if the governors had not placed any temporary restrictions on businesses, schools, houses of worship, entertainment venues, etc. since mid-March? Where would the number of cases and deaths be now? 10% higher, 20% higher, 30% higher?

Not enough people were "cautious" (i.e, the spring breakers partying on the beaches of Florida in March, people getting too close to one another on Chicago's lakefront a couple of weeks ago).

Until there is a vaccine developed, and by most reports I have heard that is at least 12 months away, "normal" is going to be different for a while.

Several years ago at my former job, I voiced my unhappiness to my former manager about a two week trip I was going to have to make to the company's headquarters in Houston. My manager's reply was "Laura, you're just going to have to suck it up and make the trip."

So as much as I want for things to return to normal tomorrow or next week, I know that's not going to happen; I am "sucking it up" for now.

I am grateful I have a job and an employer that has the technological capabilities to enable its office employees to work from home the past 5 weeks.

The sooner the numbers of new cases start declining, the sooner life can start to return to "normal", however you define normal life for yourself.

Some people's narrow view reminds me of the old cigarette smokers logic " it's my body and my right" . No, not when your carelessness can I'll affect me. Grow up, buckle down and ride it out Buttercup

My Humble Opinion
 

I understand the increasing protests and frustrations of people. Some Governors have clearly taken orders to a level of arbitrary and illogical! It is important to remember mental and economic health is important too. When people are losing their savings, or worse, their ability to pay for rent and food, they will rebel.
We have to move quickly toward a more "moderate normal", but this places responsibilities on all of us. We will need to continue physical distancing and, perhaps, wearing masks for many months. But, that does not mean we cannot return the economy to a more active state. Work rules will have to be revised we will have to change our expectations and lifestyles to a degree.
I have a friend who raises 24,000 hogs per year. He delivers to a packer who has had no virus problems. They distance workers, have employee wear masks, and place plexiglass between employees when necessary.
I abhor government rules and want them removed as quickly as possible. But, that demands more responsibilty from each of us.
Lastly, we need to demand a more responsible media that reports well-researched stories without opinion. The need to fill 24 hours a day has completely destroyed journalism and filled the time with amateur opinion, sensationalism, and distortion.

I could not agree more with your assessment. I prefer to live in the good old USA. If I should happen to die from this virus, so be it. I would rather die a free man than live my life in fear or even extreme caution, not knowing what I will have to sacrifice just so that I can continue to live. To quote Julius Cesar, from my high school days, "Cowards die many times before their death, the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

The virus has killed more than 1,800 Americans almost every day since April 7, and the official toll may be an undercount.

By comparison, heart disease typically kills 1,774 Americans a day, and cancer kills 1,641.

The virus in now spreading to the suburbs and rural areas.

It's my neighbors responsibility to stay in their lane driving their car on the other side of the road with exceptions of when it is safe to pass.

Perhaps the real issue is not liberty or freedom, they are very different. The issue may be ”responsibility” and justice.

You can choose to act responsibly and above all remember the word is justice. Most think the word is just us.

If this does not wake up America to the need for universal health care then I don’t know what will.

If everybody has good universal health care ( single payer) the economy will be a lot stronger and everyone will win even the medical community.

Freedom and Indepenance
 

I value Independence as well as Freedom. These are two different concepts. So before I get involved with my neighbor’s life I ask myself would I want someone in my life the same way? If the answer is “No” I let it be and move on

Wow!

If you happen to die from this virus that would be very sad.

You or anyone else do not have a right to be out in public if infected and you most certainly do not have the right to infect me. That could possibly be considered a crime. At the very least, please wear a mask when you need to go shopping so you won't pass the virus to others once you get it.

I hope you stay safe and healthy.

While it's true my business stops at the end of my nose, it's also true that your business shouldn't impact mine. For example, cigarette smoking. Smokers infringe on my health, and that's the reason this country has smoking laws. Seems like a similar analogy to the question posed by the author of this thread.

Oh, I can think of a multitude of scenarios where "life" in and of itself would not be considered tenable for most.

I'm going to assume that most everyone here worked for a living, and either had some kind of pension or other investments that afforded them the ability to move here after their working life.

Many - as in millions - of people are now unemployed and there's no guarantee that their erstwhile employers will even return, regardless of an SBA loan. The states are going to be broke and looking for the feds to bail them out. You can already hear governors screaming about that. Of course, the feds bailing out the states just means that federal income tax rates have to go up. If the federal government doesn't bail out the states, the states have to come to you to make up the shortfalls, or cut a lot of programs and services - laying people off in the process. And printing more money (like the Federal Reserve does) is only devaluing the money already in circulation. Your dollars are worth less.

There needs to be a balance between health concerns and economic vitality, even if that involves risk.

where is the responsibility & justice of universal health care ? we can agree on 1 thing - no, you don’t know.

universal health care ( single payer ) will reduce the level of care we now enjoy, raise prices, & drive medical pro's out of the practice. we will all be equally miserable except for those who can afford black market med care. just as obamacare finally made practicing medicine just not worth it anymore, i lost my cardiologist, gp, urologist, & oncologist.

its obvious to me you never had to sign checks but only endorse them

another thing - where is all this $$ coming from ? states like ny, il, ca, ma, ct, nj, pa - they're not the only 1's who are broke,,, so's the fed,,, why do think the usa sells bonds ? to BORROW MONEY, folks,,, which our grandchildren can pay back w/more worthless $$$
i think we are a very selfish generation

Who's going to tell the medical professionals that they can't make the money they do now? Who's going to tell the pharmaceutical companies that they can't make profits on the successful drugs they make?

I don't see much benefit of the shutdown. I wear an N95 mask and rubber gloves when I go out to run errands. I went to Home depot 2 weeks ago in the villages and it was business as usual. People shopping without mask or gloves.

I just went to the super Walmart at the north end of the villages and it was packed. About half of the customers had masks on and fewer had gloves. I saw a newborn baby with her young parents without masks.

My point is, people are still going out in public ignoring social distancing and without wearing personal protective equipment and because fewer businesses are open they're packing into the ones that are open.

I suppose you could open up the economy and let the consumer decide how much they'll risk getting infected.

It looks to me that some people don't care or see a risk and some do. It's up to you to protect yourself.

As for myself, I see this virus as a new era in humanity. I'm surprised terrorists haven't seen this in the past as a way to attack us. It's very easy to weaponize this virus. The virus is easy to come by compared to bomb making materials and you can't detect it on people. This will change everything.

I'm betting this winter we'll see the virus come back with a vengeance and you can't shutdown the world for several months and not run out of food etc.

Gilead is testing a treatment that may be available soon and a vaccine should be available next year.

Protect yourself long enough to get to lower death rates is a good goal and let the risk takers choose their plan.

People have the right to die any way they like, but they don't have the right or freedom to endanger others with their lifestyle. My friend lives in NYC and she wrote this about people complaining about their "freedom": Silly stupid people. Get them out of the boonies and take them to NYC and give them a guided street tour of all the area hospitals with the refrigerated tractor trailers filled with dead bodies, followed by a boat ride to Hart Island where they can watch the backhoes dig long wide trenches and the stacking of wooden caskets for the mass burials.

My opinion is that your opinion is extreme and not at all realistic. I don't think I believe in predestination. I am astonished by this reaction which seems to be gaining more and more momentum and makes me hate politics even more, although I have always thought of myself as very patriotic. I am just sad. Really sad. What it looks like to me is that older people are disposable. I do hope that this movement would be different if staying home saved beautiful young lives. I do so hope that would be true.

I take issue with the use of your word "infringe", though your discussion of the topic is a worthy one. Before responding directly, I need to raise what one of Trump's economic advisors, Stephen Moore, said the other day about equating those on the right being put upon-perhaps in a way like the thrust of your discussion topic- just like Rosa Parks did in her day. That comparison was lunacy, since Ms. Parks was advancing racial equality which, if it did not come about, would not infect and kill others of whatever description. If she had the virus and did not take precautions, then the comparison would be the same to those gun-toting individuals we saw at state capitals in Michigan, Virginia and Minnesota last week. But to respond to your inquiry, we are ALL interdependent upon one another as Americans, regardless of political stripe or viewpoint, color or creed. When we are battling a deadly silent and invisible enemy, we must all draw together to fight it so that we all survive, sans those thousands that have incredulously perished through no fault of their own. If I can draw upon an apt comparison: what this nation had to do to fight Hitler in WWII. Didn't we have to make sacrifices at home to help fight the war and supply our soldiers with what they needed, like ammo, equipment, clothing, and artillery? Are fines required if a government tells us to wear masks and we don't; if a government tells us not to have more than 10 congregate together but do? Yes, since our freedoms, here, are dependent upon us taking heed of what to do to stop this invisible killer; if not, then having a government edict means nothing and those that want to violate them are not only being foolish to themselves, but also seeding the continued spread of the virus among those that are lawfully abiding citizens. To put it more plainly, if we run a red light or stop sign, why should we have to be a fine for a traffic violation?

My post took this wonderful post out of view. I do so agree.

Another articulate and thoughtful post that I so agree with.

Hunter Thompson is the author of the quip you use as a signature addendum. It would be nice to give him credit.

And spread it to everyone else? Thanks

Your questions are direct and complicated. You are asking "what is a moral decision?" and how does one make it? The 16th through 18th century philosophers discussed just this .. is it by looking at "greatest good for the greatest number" or is it "if everyone acted in this manner would society be better or worse" or is it Hobbes' contention that the leader (sovereign) has the right to dictate over the affairs of all the citizens?

There are many ways to look at this ... and although your questions are valid .... are they actually the right questions?

I think that post was meant to be offensive .... it reflects on the writer and only the writer.

I should rather die from the iris and live free?
 

This person saying (s)he would rather die from the virus but live free. I will be polite here, but is this individual all together with it? I would rather take logical precautions guided by government edicts to preserve my life from a silent, deadly killer than have another be so irresponsible (by "living free") that jeopardizes my health, safety and well-being. That is why I figuratively vomited when I saw those in Michgan, Virginia and Minnesota brandishing their guns when protesting their governors' stay-at-home orders. If such individuals want to protest that way, may they all become infected, maybe die? But don't tread on me!

I think you asked the wrong question. The question should be: “Is it OK for my indifference, carelessness, or selfishness to endanger someone else?”

Do you think that stop signs infringe on your freedom and that it’s OK to run them? Isn’t running a stop sign and causing an accident that takes someone’s life similar to coughing and spraying someone with your C-19 germs? In the case of the stop sign, you could be charged with manslaughter. By trying to maintain your regular activities and ignoring the guidance to cover your face to stop your germs from being sprayed on others, your are being reckless and are endangering others’ lives. You might not be convicted of reckless endangerment, but if someone dies because of your selfishness you HAVE committed manslaughter and are just as guilty as someone who ignores stop signs.

Money to feed your family or starvation?

Just hoping we get behind this, and our country heals.

However, I also think there's going to be some serious litigation on this topic, in the aftermath. Specifically, the enforcement(fines, arrests, etc). Legislatures create laws, and the executive branch executes and enforces them. Not sure how the courts will view the fines and/or arrests of individuals for not complying with edicts(vs a law/ordinance)? As for the Michigan issue, I think the governor went a bit too far, in deciding what stores could operate and sell? Telling one store they had to close, because their product wasn't essential, but Wal-marts all remain open, and are not restricted in what they sell(which is much of the same product)?! Again, hoping we just come out this whole again.
Cheers!

Most of us in The Villages are retired and aren't working so we have a different perspective from those in the real world. While I understand your fear and why you think everyone should stay home, would you feel the same way if you weren't getting your pension or social security check every month? What about if you had already exhausted your savings? Do you really think all the food production people in this country should stay home? What about delivery people?
That fact is, the vast majority of people around the world have to get out and make a living. Yes, many can wear masks while they work but many cannot. Don't they deserve to live just as much as you do? The majority of deaths and serious illnesses from the virus are people over 70. Those people, for the most part, can stay home and try to be safe. The rest of the population needs to balance the need for income with the need for safety, but sooner rather than later they will need to return to work.

Notice how the two states, CA and NY, are squealing for a bailout. Hmmm. Sounds like the governors are not managing their budgets very well. NY and CA have the highest taxes yet have spent it all on ridiculous projects or sanctuary cities. Why should be bail them out when they squandered all of the money in taxes. Seems to me if the federal government bails them out it will never create an incentive for them to manage their budgets responsibility.

Well said

[QUOTE=B767drvr;1748971]A discussion on morals: Is it your neighbor's responsibility to keep you safe/healthy?

If so, how far are we willing to infringe on others' rights/freedoms to keep others safe?

Is it okay to destroy people's businesses by forcing their extended closure to "protect" others' health?

Is it okay to forcefully remove people from public transportation for not wearing masks?

In Laredo, Texas... it's a $1,000 fine if you go out in public without a mask. The mask requirement can be a cloth draping... i.e., it is not for the wearer's safety, it is for others' safety. Do you agree with this? If so, why? If not, why not?

Have we considered the effects of our actions on our health care workers? Did they sign up for a worldwide global deadly pandemic threatening not only their job, but their life? How about going to work with little to no PPE and "hoping" they stay safe? Did they sign up for this? How might your actions impact their life? Is it okay to make choices and then expect others to "fix" (health care workers) them?[/QUOTE

Your question and comments are ridiculous. The health care profession is what it is taking care of the sick, injured, those in need of hospital care.

They had no idea that this virus was going to happen any more than a person joining the military and find out months later, he/she going to war. It is what it is, dealing with the unexpected.

The Military for example is hit very hard with corona virus, the overseas rotations are on hold pretty much for the foreseeable future. Coming home from an overseas assignment after 2-3 year tour with or without dependents, on hold.

Emergency leave, and those leaving the military are the only exceptions.

Look at the epidemic of 1918 over 100 years ago they didn't have todays medical knowledge, 20,000 people died in Philadelphia alone. People lived in real fear they had no idea what was happening. Compare that with today.

People were expected to live under the very same restrictions that are in place today, yes including wearing a mask in public.

That governor in Michigan is bat crazy (no pun intended). She says it is fine to out on the water in a canoe but not a motorboat. How does that make sense. I am glad I live in Fl where we have a partial common sense approach to this problem.

Yes, they took and oath-and they signed up for career with excellent pay and opportunities. Like all professions you take the good with the bad. Yes, it tough times and they are earning their pay. I compare it to the typical soldier, it’s great when you NOT getting shot at. But, when first time somebody praised them when they get killed. Some ____ says they knew what they was getting into.