Remdesivir vs Hydroxychloroquine
 

There's been news about both drugs recently, good, bad and mediocre. Before comparing what we know, it's helpful to look at some data taken directly from NYC health department, current epicenter of the pandemic.

25.8% of confirmed coronavirus cases have been hospitalized in NYC, 29.7% of those people died, and over 80% of those put on ventilators died. Overall death rate compared to confirmed cases is about 7%, but it's probably much less than that if you take into account antibody studies showing that many people get the disease and recover without ever being diagnosed. What we can conclude from this data is that your chances of dying go way up if you are hospitalized, and way way up if you are put on a ventilator.

COVID-19: Data - NYC Health

So let's compare remdesivir to hydroxychloroquine treatment.

Remdesivir is an intravenous drug, which means it is given only in hospitals at this point
Remdesivir is likely to be very expensive, costing over $1000 per day. Probably very high copays like other designer drugs.
The main supplier for the chemicals used in Remdesivir is in China.

Hydroxychloroquine is a pill that can be taken at home, before your symptoms warrant hospitalization
Hydroxychloroquine costs a dollar or two per day.
Hydroxychloroquine is made all over the world by many companies, there's no patent, and nobody stands to make billions if they use it.

A couple of clinical trials for remdesivir are being released, one published at The Lancet which said:

Our trial found that intravenous remdesivir did not significantly improve the time to clinical improvement, mortality, or time to clearance of virus in patients with serious COVID-19 compared with placebo.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...022-9/fulltext

Another trial done by on remdesivir has not yet been published, but DR Fauci leaked some details from it, calling it promising.

Fauci said the median recovery time for patients treated with remdesivir was 11 days, compared with the 15 days for patients in the placebo group. Death rate was 8% in remdesivir group vs 11% in placebo group, not significant.

That's better than nothing but certainly not spectacular. When they release the paper we'll know more.

As far as studies on Hydroxychloroquine, we don't have double blind studies yet but will soon. There are over 140 studies of HCQ plus various drugs listed at National Library of Medicine so hopefully we will have proof one way or the other shortly. There seems to be a consensus among Doctors using HCQ cocktails that it works best soon after symptoms develop, before you go to the hospital.

Here is a link to a letter by The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons about the good results of HCQ drug cocktails before disease progresses to hospitalization.

"In addition, Michael J. A. Robb, M.D., of Phoenix is compiling all reports as they come in. As of this date, the total number of reported patients treated with HCQ, with or without azithromycin and zinc, is 2,333. Of these, 2,137 or 91.6 percent improved clinically. There were 63 deaths, all but 11 in a single retrospective report from the Veterans Administration where the patients were severely ill."

AAPS Letter Asking Gov. Ducey to Rescind Executive Order concerning hydroxychloroquine in COVID-19 - AAPS | Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

Looking at the data in the remdesivir study published in The Lancet (link above) is a graph showing viral load shows little difference between remdesivir and placebo groups.

Attachment 83917

Some sharp eyed MDs have noticed something very disconcerting about the NIAID clinical trial on remdesivir. They still have not published the paper but MDs have noticed something very strange.

They changed the endpoints for the study in mid April, while it was still going on. The endpoints are the various results they use to judge the drug's efficacy or not on a given parameter. Changing these during a trial is a big no no, and it's got lots of Doctors doubting the science.

It's like being in a race and suddenly declaring victory where you are instead of continuing on the finish line. Very disappointing, someone needs to ask Dr Fauci some very pointed questions.

I think it is too early to tell, and even when we get some valid statistics, there seems no one to dispense them. I am tired of accolades and exaggerations and promises.

I liked the way it used to work. Someone we could trust, telling us what happened.

Even Dr. Fauci can't pull it out of the air. They have just begin to ship quantities of the newest drug to test.

We have not agreed on much in the last 3 years or so, but on this...I agree with you.

ALL medical folks feel any vaccine or variant is minimum 8 months away.

Seems trust is non existant in today’s world.

A new retrospective study on hydroxychloroquine has been posted (preprint) Similar to the VA study except it shows success not failure. This new study used HCQ only, no azithromycin or zinc was used.

A retrospective look at 568 patients in Wuhan. All of them were confirmed positive and on mechanical ventilation, median age 68, 63% male. 520 of them had standard of care (various antivirals and antibiotics), and in addition 48 patients were treated with 200mg hydroxychloroquine (b.i.d.) They measured hospital stay, mortality, and IL-6 levels as well. And their results were quite striking: mortality was 18.8% in the HCQ group and 45.8% in the others. Patient IL-6 levels declined significantly in the treatment group, but not in the other cohort. The preprint’s Figure 3 also indicates that IL-6 went back up after hydroxychloroquine was discontinued.

Hydroxychloroquine application is associated with a decreased mortality in critically ill patients with COVID-19 | medRxiv

Hydroxychloroquine use must be OK, high level user announced today.
:beer3:

Yep, I suspected he might be, he's also taking zinc.

He's not alone, 1000s of Doctors doing the same. There's a clinical trial going on to see if it indeed works as a prophylactic.

If you watch certain news channels, all you will hear about hydroxychloroquine is that it failed in VA trials, it's dangerous to take outside of hospitals etc etc

Meanwhile prescriptions for it are soaring all over the world. The "very dangerous to take outside of hospitals" is especially funny. Millions and millions of people take it every day for lupus and arthritis and they are not in hospitals and not dying.

A lot of talking heads are going to be wearing their sad faces if you know who is proven to be right about his hunch.

As of this morning they all are, just not certain ones......

Neil Cavuto is not a Potus fan, well known for quite a while.

There is? He didn't just go off on his own? Can you please link us to that study??

I think this move will not go unnoticed by the huge group of savvy health service employees and their families who speak pretty good medicalize and who understand and follow all of the recent medicines used and discarded. People generally are much more aware of news on the virus. However the divide is huge. There are some folks who are following and believing a lot of incorrect information from very biased sources.

This is the second terribly outrageous medical faux pas that will have repercussions in how people check off things in November.

That high level user who just announced he was taking it said that a lot of doctor's and other front-line heroes were also doing it and he's received lots of calls touting the use of it. Can't you just take his word for it?

Dr. Ivette Lozano has been prescribing hydroxychloroquine with very good results. All we can do is hope and move on with our lives.

There are a lot of clinical trials going on right now using HCQ plus other drugs. Some as a treatment for covid 19 patients

Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc With Either Azithromycin or Doxycycline for Treatment of COVID-19 in Outpatient Setting - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

And some using the drugs as a prophylactic like this one with front line medical workers.

Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin as Prophylaxis for Healthcare Workers Dealing With COVID19 Patients - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

Trump did not just pull HCQ out of a hat. Lots of DOCTORS have told him that they think it works. When the numerous clinical trials publish their results, I will post about them. Clinical trials are expensive, they don't just start them on a whim, there are over 100 involving HCQ going on right now.

Medical faux pas? LOL Pretty sure that POTUS has a really good cardiologist. The whole scare tactic of the media calling HCQ a dangerous drug is laughable. Funny, we didn't hear scary stories about HCQ prior to POTUS touting it. Millions of lupus and arthritus
sufferers have been taking it daily for years. Pretty sure POTUS's cardiologist took a look at his QT intervals to see if their might be a problem, just like mine did when I asked him if I could take the drug if I got sick. Pretty sure POTUS can afford a $30 portable QT monitor to make sure he's ok. You're a woman right? Pretty sure you can have a private conversation with your Doctor and get an abortion without an act of Congress and the approval of the talking idiots on TV.

Terribly outrageous faux pas? Seen any interviews of the other guy lately?

The more we hear the less we know what to believe. Sad but very true

The sponsor of one of these studies is St. Francis Hospital in New York. (I have not heard of it)st. francis hospital new york city - Bing

The other two, which appears to be the same one is the King Hussein Health Center in Jordan. (I have not heard of it)

where is king hussein cancer center - Bing

Let's see, want to test a drug as prophylactic against highly infectious disease in a high risk environment. Gee, maybe use a hospital with active covid 19 patients. Last time I checked, there are over 150 trials involving HCQ all over the world, including in the USA

His word? :1rotfl:

Jackson and Coker, a healthcare staffing firm, did a survey of 1,200 doctors nationwide and found that 65 percent would prescribe the drug to their family if they were infected with the Wuhan coronavirus, with 66 percent saying they would take the drug themselves:

Sixty-five percent of physicians across the United States said they would prescribe the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent COVID- 19 in a family member, according to a new survey released today by Jackson & Coker, one of the country’s largest physician staffing firms.

Only 11 percent said they would not use the drug at all.

Meanwhile, 30 percent of the surveyed doctors said they would prescribe the medications to a family member prior to the onset of symptoms if they had been exposed to COVID-19, a highly contagious virus that causes a pneumonia-like infection of the lungs.

“Working in healthcare, we’ve learned the best way to get a candid perspective on treatment options from a physician is to ask: ‘Would you give this to your family?’” said Tim Fischer, President of Jackson & Coker. “Families across the U.S. – and the world really – want to know what they can do to protect and save their loved ones.”
Jackson & Coker conducted the survey of 1,271 physicians from 50 states from April 4 to April 7. It conducted the survey not to influence the debate in treating patients with anti-malarials but to make sure the voice of physicians is represented. It has a margin of error of +/- 3 percent with a 95 percent confidence level of the doctors surveyed.

Treating COVID-19 with Anti-Malaria Drugs- Physician Poll Results

This survey was done April 8 when everyone was grasping at straws. Study results have come in since then and the results for HCQ have been disappointing.

Well, it seems there's an awfully large number of people who do just that. Me? I'm kind of a contrarian, who uses 180 degree BS barometer. When I hear certain things, from certain people, I go with the idea that the exact opposite - is more likely the truth. All the way back to pre-school, I've been a bad herd follower and usually failed the 'lemming test.'

My high school English teacher told us never to talk down in a debate.

I learned this just recently, no matter how much you stand in principal for a group, you must not have blind loyalty to a cause or a person.

VA study was a retrospective study, had the sickest patients in the HCQ group and proved that old black vets with a host of health problems die from covid 19 no matter what you do.

Most Doctors using HCQ report best results using it early, not when the patient is in IC about to go on ventilator. Many also say using zinc with HCQ is best.

Prescriptions for HCQ are still soaring worldwide. Many pharmaceutical distributors had to make rules about HCQ because so many Doctors were writing prescriptions for themselves and their families.

Clinical trials cost millions of dollars, currently there are 150 involving HCQ.

In my younger years I was very full of good thoughts and aspirations and I sat on one side of the aisle. As I grew older I became a bit more realistic and realized how hard I was working when others were not, so I switched seats.

It is very hard for any of us to admit we are wrong or the person we think we stand with is wrong. Getting to the bottom line is an admirable skill that few have. I do so dislike it when I don't have a good choice.

Often actions speak with more truth than words.

Doctors and dentists have been called out by pharmacists because they have hoarded hydroxycholriquine. Many articles have been published about this activity, including in the NYT and others. This one is from March but the motive behind the hoarding is pertinent:

Hydroxychloroquine May Not Work Against COVID-19, But Hoarding's Already A Problem : Shots - Health News : NPR

So if doctors and dentists want to secure large personal supplies of it, don’t you think they believe it has beneficial properties? Hoarding large quantities also seems to indicate planned prophylactic use (before becoming very sick/hospitalized) since treatments of advanced disease actually has fewer recommended doses in total. we should be concerned that this may be yet another instance of those who make the rules not following them. “Do as I say, not as I do!” could cause many to needlessly suffer or even die.

Yes, his word. It’s now being revealed that the dishonest one left the building before he arrived. Always political from you lately.

They are still grasping at straws. Remdesivir trial was not a huge success and was criticized by lots of Doctors because they changed their endpoints during the study. It had no statistical effect on death rates, and merely managed to shorten hospital stays from 14 to 11 days. Its currently in short supply anyway and you can't take unless you are in the hospital.

Regardless of your politics, you should be hoping that HCQ works as a curative or prophylactic. It's cheap, made all over the world, and you can take it before you go to the hospital when you first get symptoms. If it works as a prophylactic that's even better. We will know when we get results from all the clinical trials underway are completed.

To GoodLife:

Thank you for starting this thread. Your posts are well-written and your citations are appreciated. It is difficult to stay informed about the current studies and their findings. Since knowledge is power, you have shared some power with those of us who may need it most.

Early on, when demographic statistics about who is most vulnerable were first being released, The Villages and all Florida’s senior population seemed like a huge bunch of sitting ducks. I am extremely grateful that is not what happened! But we will be well-served by remaining vigilant about staying well-informed as we move forward. It’s bad enough being vulnerable to an invisible viral invader but we are also vulnerable to misinformation, ignorance and denial which may be just as dangerous.

Thank you & stay strong.

There are very few absolutes in health. If we want a miracle, we are looking in all the wrong places.

Thanks! I am one of the few posters here who actually posts links and sources instead of pulling opinions out of my rear end.

Not hard to figure out why some would like to shut me up.

The White House Doctor prescribed it and both of them have the responsibility to best protect his life. The “repercussions in how people check things off in November” may be that his name will appear on every ballot because he is still alive and well.

Did you read the linked documents that started this thread? The letter to the Gov. clearly stated HCQ use is widespread globally.

Here's a larger study testing whether Hydroxychloroquine can prevent covid 19 in hospital workers and others exposed to the virus

Dr. Boulware is overseeing a clinical trial at the U to determine whether hydroxychloroquine is effective in preventing the coronavirus. They currently have about 1500 front line medical workers and first responders nationwide taking part. The participants take a safe dose once or twice a week, and researchers are checking whether those people contract COVID-19.

The U will be the first to publish results of such a study, Boulware said. They expect to see preliminary data in about a month. But he adds they still want to get about 3000 participants and will finish the study sooner with more participants.
…
Boulware says lab experiments have found the drug can prevent the coronavirus from infecting cells. But they need to find out if the same is true for people who take the pill.

COVID-19 Clinical Trial Launches at University of Minnesota | Medical School - University of Minnesota

I agree with you on Remdesivir and have indeed been hoping for the best with HCQ for the reasons you state. The original non-peer reviewed study from France touted it as having value as a treatment for severe cases. That's turning out to be a bust. Sanofi is now running a study with HCQ for mild-to-moderate cases, so we'll hope for the best on that.

As a prophylactic, the woman below caught coronavirus after taking HCQ for 19 years. On twitter, a physician has a coronavirus positive patient who has been taking HCQ for 2 years.

BTW, if one is taking HCQ as a prophylactic, why would one stop taking the drug after two weeks?

‘How Can I Be Sick?’ Woman Who Took Hydroxychloroquine For 19 Years To Treat Lupus Still Got COVID-19 – CBS Detroit

Yes, I am aware that some taking HCQ have tested positive. The trials they are conducting now can tell us if taking it in high risk situations proves to be statistically relevant (less people taking it get sick)

Here's another huge trial that will have 40,000 particpants

UK healthcare workers begin COVID-19 hydroxychloroquine trial

Two weeks since WH exposure, immediate risk is past.

This isn't really how prophylactics work, but I reckon prophylaxis wasn't the point of the announcement.

We are on the same page on this.

politics not science
 

too many comments are politically tinged