You have a right not to wear a mask
 

What is the difference - no shirt no shoes no service

You also have a right to look at actual data that shows masks and lockdowns don't actually work all that well

New York locked down and recommended masks: result 2nd highest death total per million in the world.

Sweden did neither and had less than 30% of deaths per million

Attachment 85308

You have every right to look at that and believe in anecdotal evidence if you want as well.

Of course you're looking at a country with a population density of 63 persons per square mile and comparing it to a city with 26,403 persons per square mile. But go on and trust that. You have every right to.

We have the right to not be ignorant too......you don't need to look hard for stats that meet an agenda or our bias. Remember that the stats and opinions and data you like may be useless because we have no way to verify, we only have a way to believe. Thank goodness more people have developed a case of common sense then we had before, and I suspect have written to the management of those stores and businesses that have helped in the change of policies. I suspect it took them a little longer to implement since the lawyers needed to sign off. Guess Costco's lawyers were a little faster :)

I agree, and if a business DOES NOT require a mask to enter, don't blow a gasket when you see someone without one. You knew the rules when you entered, same as businesses that REQUIRE a mask.

That graph compares Sweden to NEW YORK STATE. (not NYC) So lets compare apples to apples. The urban density (number of citizens who live in or near cities) is 85% in Sweden and 87% in New York State. Nobody lives in vast swaths of Sweden, it is 3 times the size of New York State with 50% of the population. Viral epidemiology looks at urban density, not people per square mile.

PS Its not anecdotal evidence, it is actual deaths per million.

I love how so many people throw around this "I have a right" stuff.

So what? So what if you have a right.

Ever hear of the right to bear arms? That one is actually spelled out in the constitution. Now please, someone that claims to have a right to not wear masks show me in the constitution where that is stated.

I will wait here...

I see you are back, did you find that right to not wear a mask enumerated in the constitution? Did you find any law that states you have a right to NOT wear a mask?

I didn't think so.

Okay, now we KNOW you have a right to bear arms, so, take your AR-15 and go get on a commercial airline flight and see what happens.

But, wait you said you have a right to bear arms, to carry guns. What do you mean they arrested you when you tried to board a commercial flight brandishing an AR-15.

You see, rights are NOT absolute.

The conservative SCOTUS Justice Scalia said very clearly any right can be regulated. PERIOD.

Public safety, as determined by the government can override ANY right you claim to have. Even those you make up - see, there is no right to not wear a mask.

It doesn't exist.

But, go ahead, throw a hissy fit, and yell and scream. It won't help, but maybe it will make you feel better.

Is this simple enough? Even a stable genius can understand.

"as determined by the government"

Therein lies the problem.

Steve

What is it with Sweden? The country as a whole did no better than fair with 542 deaths per million, making them 5th WORST in the world as of 7/15/20. Sweden Tops EU For New Cases But Says Virus Is Slowing
They fare much better in general than US citizens in categories including heart disease, diabetes, HBP & stroke - all supposed contributing factors to COVID deaths. They are also 'happier' than the US, ranking #7 in the world to our #19. With these factors taken into consideration, the Swedes didn't do all that well, it would seem.
Comparing Sweden to NY is also specious, at best. NY population is over 19 million, Sweden (with 5593 COVID deaths) is closer to Michigan (6355 deaths) or North Carolina (1606 deaths) in population at a bit over 10 million.
Coronavirus - Michigan Data
North Carolina Coronavirus Deaths Per Day

Wow.. Another mask debate. Who woulda thunk it?

I wonder if this one will change any more minds than the last dozen or so threads covering the same topic.

Nope.

Steve

Gee that's really scientific!

DR Fauci on if masks really work

"Masks Don't Work" Dr Fauci tells the truth about masks | #debunkthisfauci - YouTube

Two Doctors and experts in respiratory diseases review the science at CIDRAP

We do, however, have data from laboratory studies that indicate cloth masks or face coverings offer very low filter collection efficiency for the smaller inhalable particles we believe are largely responsible for transmission, particularly from pre- or asymptomatic individuals who are not coughing or sneezing.

The guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) for face coverings initially did not have any citations for studies of cloth material efficiency or fit, but some references have been added since the guidelines were first posted. We reviewed these and found that many employ very crude, non-standardized methods (Anfinrud 2020, Davies 2013, Konda 2020, Aydin 2020, Ma 2020) or are not relevant to cloth face coverings because they evaluate respirators or surgical masks (Leung 2020, Johnson 2009, Green 2012).

We are concerned that many people do not understand the very limited degree of protection a cloth mask or face covering likely offers as source control for people located nearby.

Cloth masks and face coverings likely do not offer the same degree of protection as physical distancing, isolation, or limiting personal contact time.

Will face coverings 'flatten the curve' and stop the pandemic?
We have reviewed the many modeling studies that purport to demonstrate that cloth masks or face coverings have the potential for flattening the curve or significantly decrease the number of cases. These studies fail to recognize several important facts:

The filter performance of a cloth material does not directly translate or represent its performance on an individual, because it neglects the understanding of fit.
Cloth masks or coverings come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and materials and are not made according to any standards.

Transmission is not simply a function of short random interactions between individuals, but rather a function of particle concentration in the air and the time exposed to that concentration.

A cloth mask or face covering does very little to prevent the emission or inhalation of small particles. As discussed in an earlier CIDRAP commentary and more recently by Morawska and Milton (2020) in an open letter to WHO signed by 239 scientists, inhalation of small infectious particles is not only biologically plausible, but the epidemiology supports it as an important mode of transmission for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.

COMMENTARY: Masks-for-all for COVID-19 not based on sound data | CIDRAP

No masks required and Florida is out of control with the virus spreading like wildfire.

Graph is deaths per million. This means it is adjusted for POPULATION. New York is 2nd highest in the world, after New Jersey with over 1700 deaths per million. Sweden doesn't even make the top ten in the world. Swedes are happier than us? Bwahhaahha The virus doesn't care. Forget about the fact that many US states had far higher death rates per million than Sweden while they imposed lockdowns and masks, what's your theory for why the rise and fall of cases and deaths looks exactly the same?

Next?

Countries and US states with highest death rates per million

1. New Jersey 1757 deaths per million
2. New York 1665
3. Connecticut 1220
4. Massachusetts 1206
5. Rhode Island 921
6. Belgium 853
7. DC 805
8. Louisiana 733
9. United Kingdom 659
10. Michigan 632

What so hard about wearing mask?

See post #14

Cloth masks don't actually work

Are willing to bet you’re life on it?

Masks are required in some counties in Florida

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YES!!! I SO agree! Boring.... And solves nothing. It's SO yesterday.

Actually the only mask-thing that interests me now is>>>>>>>>
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I haven't been inside any buildings other than home for over 3 months. Outside I stay at least 20 feet from other people. No need for mask and yes, I bet my life on actual science and data that shows cloth masks don't really work. Did you read post #14 and the link? Most transmission of the virus occurs from particles too small for cloth masks to work. That's why I don't go inside any buildings.

Not another video!!

Why Face Masks DON'T Work, According To SCIENCE - YouTube

It doesn't matter who posts what, there are believers and non believers, nobody is going to change anyone's mind.
Steve

So, how do you get food? Somebody else taking the chance and possibly bring home? Like it or not if you go to store you’re going to be wearing Some kind of mask. Cloth mask does stop water droplets and lessen The spew which the virus contained in the water droplets thus reducing the odds. Is it 100 precent? but I’ll take what ever the percentage reduction.

But when it’s mandatory they won’t have choice will they?

There is always a "choice"

Steve

Topic concerns whether businesses can dictate whether customers must wear masks. Many off topic replies about efficacy of masks.

Get back on topic or thread will be closed.

Moderator

I wish we could put that sign up on the window of the store.

Your understanding of the United States Constitution has turned that document on "its head". The Constitution doesn't limit citizens in their rights, it proscribes what the federal government is authorized to do … PERIOD! In other words, if it ain't in there, the government is NOT authorized to do it. Now we all know that the federal government has usurped many powers not delegated to it but, as the Tenth Amendment states, The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. If you were to peruse the federal Constitution or the constitutions of the state in question, you would find NO such power delegated to the particular government entity. We could discuss, at length, whether the "government" might assume these powers in a "martial law" situation, but, that is a discussion for another thread/time. Nevertheless, your premise is upside down regarding the rights of citizens - the government has NO such power unless it is proscribed in the constitution of the state or the federal Constitution. Stating "there is no right to not wear a mask" presumes that if it is not enumerated within the document, then the citizen has NO right to that action; the constitution places limits on the government, not the citizens! Unfortunately, you are not alone in your misunderstanding of the Constitution, you have much company :ohdear:

Fred

Very simple people
 

Where a MASK!
Stop being childish Stupid!

WEAR A DAMN MASK!

My point is that some keep comparing Sweden to the US, which didn't work out so well, and now have changed the dialog to comparing Sweden to NY state - another case of apples to oranges. There just is no apparent equivalence in culture, population density of major cities, underlying conditions, tourism, and the list goes on. Not adjusting for any inconvenient facts, Sweden still has the 5th worst COVID death rate in the world.
Since comparing death rates of countries works out poorly for Sweden, now a graph using individual US states is somehow more applicable?
And then there's happiness.The virus doesn't care? Hmmm. Your mocking laughter aside, that's not what Psychology Today. WebMD or Healthline or MANY others say. This from PT: "Happiness is associated with an array of physical health benefits, such as lower blood pressure, reduced risk of stroke, a stronger immune system, and even a longer life. Positive emotions are also linked to a reduced risk of injury in young adults and frailty in older adults." It seems from this that happiness could be a huge factor. Your theory to the contrary?
I don't need a theory about a rise & fall of cases or death rates in different places. It seems to be a case of throwing unrelated or only marginally related data into a discussion (in this case, whether or not people "have a right not to wear a mask") as a diversion.

Wearing a mask
 

Whose data are you looking at. Data Is collected and published about everything, but that doesn’t mean it is accurate. I would rather be safe than sorry. New York recommended masks, They were not mandated. Many wore them, but people like you did not. Would be curious to see what the DATA would show if there was a comparison. If you are following the news, Sweden is beginning to suffer the consequences of no masks, no social distancing. If you are going to exert your human rights, do it at home by yourself.

If the virus enters through the eyes nose and mouth, why aren’t we protecting our eyes!

You are totally wrong in all you say.

That’s not true.

That is what one poster posts and one poster can and does find data to back up her views but that doesn't mean all posters agree with one poster or that one poster is completely or partially right or wrong. But we know we will hear from one poster who has her own views again. We don't have anything much else to do anyway. Many of us are staying away from groups and trying to do all that we can to avoid being infected.

Attached is a 3-minute, 20-second video that gives you visual proof that masks work. It is well acknowledged that wearing one protects those around you, and you have to rely on those around you to protect you. It is a selfless act of kindness and respect to wear one in an indoor area and outside when social distancing is not possible.

Sask Masks - Experiment results from a Mask vs. No Mask...

It my hope that all public buildings and certainly all stores post and refuse admittance to anyone not wearing a mask If you're walking down the streets or sidewalks you must wear a mask. If you insist on not wearing a mask STAY HOME!

Agree.
 

I agree with you. It is interesting though, how the diversion happens. Kind of like, wife says, "We need to talk about our relationship." husband says, " You're right. We should get a new car". Fact is, some don't hear, others won't hear, and still others can't hear because they have their fingers in their ears.
Don't stop the conversation thought, every now and then someone will change their mind.

Stay safe. Stay well. Peace!

Do we have the right to drink and drive?