Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812573)

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

Originally Posted by GoodLife (Post 1812596)

I think the Harvard paper is exhibit A on how to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Besides, I am sure the NYT and Harvard are both against the death penalty anyway.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

They don't reveal this because it would undoubtably reveal reverse racism. More white murderers are executed than black murderers.

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1812601)

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1812598)

There are charts and graphs and data crunches on all kinds of things. THIS one is exclusively about "murderers executed in the category of the race of the victim."

You can find other charts and graphs and data crunches on "murderers executed in the category of the race of the murderer" online, but this one is not that.

In the very narrow scope of "murderers executed in the category of race of the victim" based on this one singular study - people who kill black people tend to go free significantly more often than people who kill white people.

If you can find a study from a credible source that indicates that murderers of white and black victims are executed equally, or that murderers of black people are executed more often than murderers of white people, I'd love to see the source.

If you're looking at other types of data, well they won't necessarily have anything to do with this type of data. Knowing whether or not (for example) the murderer was wearing a hat at the time of the murder, has nothing to do with the color of his victim.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1812661)

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.



The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812673)

Sorry. I didn’t make it to the end of the 69 page paper, so I didn’t see those charts. Still, because most people who kill African-Americans are themselves African-Americans, to increase the number executed by 17 times would invariably greatly increase the number of African-Americans executed. It’s a strange argument to make in the light of the BLM movement, though I agree with the idea of more and better policing to make African-American neighborhoods safer. People shouldn’t have to live in fear, even if it’s their neighbors causing the fear.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1812762)

I am sorry you didn't read to the end of the paper as well. And if you now look at the racial information you will see that even though as you correctly state the overwhelming of black deaths are at the hand of black killers, a very large number of the executions are in cases where the victim was white but the killer was black. How come if most white deaths are caused by whites there are not more white people being executed for killing white people? Oh, systematic racism in the "justice" system might be part of the problem.

You are misunderstanding the point of the authors. The study was done to follow up on an earlier seminal paper looking at imposition of the death penalty in Georgia which showed that black defendants were much more likely to have the death penalty imposed on them especially if they killed a white person. The weakness in the study was not knowing the long term outcome.. how did being sentenced to death relate to actually being executed.

The Supreme Court attempted to address racial inequality in death sentences by saying death could only be imposed if there were aggregating circumstances. This was an attempt to eliminate racial animus in juries or judges sentencing choices. The court has not seriously looked at the outcome of that decision and this paper is addressing how race is still a huge factor in the death penalty and in execution outcome.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1812762)

I am sorry you didn't read to the end of the paper as well. And if you now look at the racial information you will see that even though as you correctly state the overwhelming of black deaths are at the hand of black killers, a very large number of the executions are in cases where the victim was white but the killer was black. How come if most white deaths are caused by whites there are not more white people being executed for killing white people? Oh, systematic racism in the "justice" system might be part of the problem.

You are misunderstanding the point of the authors. The study was done to follow up on an earlier seminal paper looking at imposition of the death penalty in Georgia which showed that black defendants were much more likely to have the death penalty imposed on them especially if they killed a white person. The weakness in the study was not knowing the long term outcome.. how did being sentenced to death relate to actually being executed.

The Supreme Court attempted to address racial inequality in death sentences by saying death could only be imposed if there were aggregating circumstances. This was an attempt to eliminate racial animus in juries or judges sentencing choices. The court has not seriously looked at the outcome of that decision and this paper is addressing how race is still a huge factor in the death penalty and in execution outcome.

Originally Posted by GoodLife (Post 1812780)

Know what the biggest factor is? Don't murder people and commit violent crimes. Blacks do this more often per capita than any other race.

Sorry not sorry.

Originally Posted by sunny56 (Post 1812795)

Number of inmates on death row in the US:

White: 1103; Black: 1089; Latino: 353; Other: 75


In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.

Originally Posted by sunny56 (Post 1812795)

Number of inmates on death row in the US:

White: 1103; Black: 1089; Latino: 353; Other: 75


In 2018: 234 Blacks were killed by White; 514 Whites were killed by Blacks. There is the reason for the difference in numbers.

You need to stop making this a racist thing and pay attention to the actual numbers.

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC (Post 1812781)

True, black leadership should worry more about one parent families, gang membership and lack of education that makes it hard to earn a good income. Do that and pretty sure crime would plummet.

More of that and think a lot of the racial problems would fade away on its own.

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812573)

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1812816)

This entire thread is so typical of discussions of race on this and other websites. A story is posted by someone who from reading their past posts would be much more likely be anti - BLM and he hopes to stir up a discussion about race. He doesn't bother to actually read the material and doesn't seem to understand the point of the study or else he is deliberately mistaking the authors' viewpoint.

One anti-BLM poster comes here to make tell us:
[the authors did give the race of killer and victim so your implication is false]

something he thinks is very important about race and murder and that the authors are deliberately withholding data as to present the data would hurt their position.

and that


again to tell us that blacks are criminals and that therefore the justice system has to deal with them in an out of proportional amount.

When it is pointed out that the conclusion of the study is that race, not frequency of crimes, is what is studied and a black death vs a white death is not treated the same by the state of Georgia in the time period examined we are treated to a new set of confused people posting:



I don't mind be corrected by people who are on topic, but the topic here is not what is the ratio of such crimes. It is how are such crimes punished and you will find a key factor is race. If I used your data and it showed that of the 234 white killers none got the death sentence for killing a black person, but every black person, all 514 who killed a white person was given a death sentence would you tell me that justice is equally applied to black and white? Nope. Of course that is not the rate of sentencing but your data is meaningless to the question addressed in the study which looks at the percentage of death sentences carried out on people who are sentenced to die for killing a white person vs killing a black person.

This paper shows that race plays a role in the administration of the death penalty. It has already been shown to play a role in arrests and convictions. You can all say quit talking about race as it isn't important. Funny how white people say that.

Just today we have two more stories about cops acting all racist against black families in a way that would just not happen if the victims of the police action had been white.

https://indyweek.com/news/northcarolina/johnston-county-state-troopers-violent-encounter/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us]A White State Trooper’s Violent Encounter with Two Black Teens Results in No Charges and Many Questions - INDY Week[/url]

Aurora Police 'Mistake' Black Family's SUV for Motorcycle | Law & Crime

Every single day there are stories that show how Black Lives don't Matter to too many cops. How they have the same built in automatic prejudice that a Black face equals a criminal not an innocent citizen which those of us who are white never have to fear or face.

If Black leaders would just make their people not commit so many crimes then all Black people wouldn't be seen as criminals. Do you all recall how cocaine was the scourge of America and lock those people away forever.. until it turned out white people used it too, then it became we need drug addiction treatment not jail.. ditto for heroin now. Race is a critical factor in what is seen as a crime, in how police do their jobs, in how charging decisions are made, in how juries see evidence and judge guilt, in how sentences are handed down, and now also in how executions are carried out. We do not have equal justice, racially blind justice. The authors are showing that to you if you care to read all 69 pages.

The law is required to be applied in a race neutral way to be constitutional, including the imposition of execution. Nor can it be arbitrary such as simply deciding to execute people whose birthday is evenly divisible by 7. As the authors state on page 52

"As applied to executions, the original research presented in this paper would suffice to make a prima facie case of disparate treatment among those sentenced to death,
and so the burden would shift to the state to prove that the system was executing persons in a race-neutral manner."

This paper is just another bit of evidence that our justice system is not just and a plea for making capital punishment a thing of the past.

Sorry, not sorry

Originally Posted by tsmall22204 (Post 1812891)

Not sure where you are coming from. I do feel that anyone who puts this much time into comparing deaths has a problem. Is it racism?

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812663)

You seem to misunderstand my point. The “Stop and Frisk” policy was stopped in NYC because most of the people frisked and most of those arrested and most of those imprisoned were African-American, even though they made up a minority of the population. The BLM movement argues that police brutality is mostly against young African-American males. They want equality, which is not for MORE European-Americans to be frisked and arrested and brutalized, but for FEWER African-Americans to be treated that way. That seems like a solid argument, even if one could respond that criminals are being arrested and imprisoned—not innocent people.

But what is the intent of this new study? Is it suggesting that this is another example of the authorities not really caring about African-American victims because if they did, in the name of equality, they would execute 17 times as many murderers of African-Americans in the name of equality? Really? Are they saying that racist juries don’t care enough about African-American lives to sentence more murderers to death? I’m in favor of the death penalty, accomplished quickly and painlessly and inexpensively, for nearly all first degree murderers, but is that really what they are asking for? Most of those executed would be African-Americans. This seems like such a peculiar thing to complain about, given that the Times is opposed to the death penalty.

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1812601)

Well then maybe they should stop murdering people. Whites kill more PEOPLE overall. In fact, most of the multiple-murder sprees are committed by people who are not black.

Originally Posted by blueash (Post 1812661)

Nice job of not doing your diligence to answer your own question. The death penalty is much more likely to be imposed in a case where a black defendant kills a white victim. This has been true forever in this country. The same obviously was true when rape was a capital offense.

If you want to see data based on race of the individuals go to
Race | Death Penalty Information Center

The Harvard study which looks at the input of race not just in sentencing where a white death is five times more likely to result in a death sentence than a black death, but also in the rate of executions where a white death is 17 times more likely to result in an execution than a black death.

"Specifically, 2.26% (22/972) of the defendants who were convicted of killing a white victim were ultimately executed, compared to just 0.13% (2/1503) of the defendants convicted of killing a Black victim. Thus, the overall execution rate is a staggering seventeen times greater for defendants convicted of killing a white victim."

You may wish to read:
Catherine M. Grosso, Barbara O’Brien, Abijah Taylor & George Woodworth, Race
Discrimination and the Death Penalty: An Empirical and Legal Overview, in AMERICA’S
EXPERIMENT WITH CAPITAL PUNISHMENT:REFLECTION ON THE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE OF THE ULTIMATE PENAL SANCTION 525–76 (James R. Acker, Robert M. Bohm & Charles S. Lanier eds., 3d ed., 2014)

which is a review of " thirty-six studies published since 1990 reported racial disparities in death sentencing based on the race of the defendant, the race of the victim, or the race of the defendant and victim in combination"

Once you have educated yourself on the bigger picture it will be completely clear that when a black person kills a white person the death penalty is much more likely to be imposed than in the reverse. This of course only looks at cases where there is a first degree murder charge. It does not look at the situation where prosecutors decide not to charge first degree murder with a death sentence requested if a white person kills a black, as of course now in many states the state of mind of the killer is taken into account and if he feared for his life, scary black person nearby, then that is an acceptable excuse.

This Harvard study shows that in Georgia, the only state analyzed, that the state is between 17 times and 38 times more likely to execute the killer when the victim was white. In other words a dead black person did not result in an execution, except in two cases. Both those cases where a dead black person led to an execution involved multiple homicides by the person executed. So in Georgia, 1503 black victims, 20 death sentences and 2 executions. At the same time period in Georgia 980 white victims and 107 death sentences with 22 executions. A dead white person clearly results in the state of Georgia imposing the death sentence more often. Ok to kill black people, not OK to kill white people.



The races of the killers and victims who were executed is included in the study in Appendix A contrary to your assertion that the information was not included. Additional information is in Table 5 and 6.

So to summarize the result of this study... If you kill a white person in the state of Georgia and are sentenced to death, you are at least 17 times more likely to be executed than if you kill a black person and are sentenced to death. Because white lives matter.

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812573)

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing (Post 1812573)

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

Originally Posted by UseYourBrain (Post 1812962)

I would want to know the race of the killers (those being executed) before I made a conclusion that the whole thing is racist. Isn’t that also important to the conclusion ?