What Will The Apartments Look Like?
 

Have we thought much about what the new apartments proposed by the Developer might look like? Consider the following...

In round numbers a 286-unit apartment building will almost certainly be larger than the independent living building at Freedom Pointe (the taller, larger building west of the Morse-El Camino Real traffic circle). Certainly it would have to be taller.

Freedom Pointe (FP) has 247 studio, one and two-bedroom apartments. The mix is towards the smaller units. None of the FP apartments has a balcony. The average size of the FP apartments is approximately 1,100 sq. ft. In addition, FP has a parking garage holding approximately 250 cars with similar space devoted to surface parking.

The FP residential building has a large dining room and roughly half of one floor devoted to resident amenities (reception desk, lobby, mail room, indoor pool, ballroom, workout facility, library, billiards, meeting rooms, wood shop, activities room, barber-beauty salon and offices). There is an enclosed grassy area with a gazebo and an outside enclosed dog park. The building has several elevator banks and a large receiving dock.

The Freedom Pointe building is four floors throughout with smaller parts being five, six and seven stories high.

The Villages-proposed apartments will almost certainly be larger than those at Freedom Pointe, more like the size of those of the Brownwood Lofts, estimated to average 1500-1700 sq.ft. They will also likely have balconies like the apartments at Brownwood. The additional size of the Hacienda Hills apartments will likely be offset by less space devoted to activities amenities such as at Freedom Pointe. The space devoted to the FP dining room and a new restaurant will be roughly equal.

It’s probably safe to say that given these assumptions, the proposed 286-unit apartment building on the former clubhouse-restaurant site would have to be 10-12 stories tall and require an underground parking facility to house a car and golf cart for each apartment. If the resort-style pool Is planned near the new apartments, that would require more space.

Will a building of that size fit on the parcel recently cleared of the Hacienda Hills clubhouse-restaurant-pool-putting green? That’s something for all of us to think about. If the Developer’s plans are for lower buildings, where would they go? How about the necessary surface parking?

Can that size project along with resort pool, nature trails and other amenities fit on the space recently cleared?

Or do the plans assume the closure of one of the Hacienda Hills nine hole courses? Was that discussed at the meeting yesterday?

The Developer was not obligated to share project plans with the AAC. All they were asking for was AAC approval of 300 new resident amenities cards. They own the property and can do whatever they choose with it.

The approval of the required zoning changes, impact studies, plan approval, etc. is for the county board to consider. All that’s certain is that we’ll be living with the result.

Well thought out. I fear that space limitations will result in the elimination of Championship golf. That will be a significant game changer for many residents, and send a very loud and clear message to anyone considering paying a premium to purchase a home on a golf course anywhere in the Villages. My only saving hope is that at least some of the newer golf courses were designed as flood plains of last resort. I am not sure if Hacienda falls into this category, but if so it might prevent certain types of construction on the land?

Using Google Maps to measure rough envelop size. Freedom Point looks to be 380 ft x 500 ft. Using same approach on HH building space you could fit in a 230 x 750 footprint, so it seems possible to fit it in. This would still leave the practice putting green in its location. Then there is more space available if you work around the golf cart storage area, external restroom facility, as well.

I wonder if the Developer plans to ram through the zoning changes quick before any new commissioners take their seat?

When do the new commissioners get seated? After the November election? After first of year?

That's a lot of uneducated assumptions, starting with the fact that the smallest Brownwood Loft homes are 755 square feet and the very largest 3 BR is 1548 square feet. Nowhere near an average of 1500-1700 as you surmised.

I agree with your post, but feel a couple of things need to be added to put things into proper perspective.

The developers plan "B" was to present something much worse than the already bad plan that they shoved down the throats of everyone living in the area. And yes, there was really no need for a plan "B", because the developer has removed all reasonable checks and balances to their powers, making their wishes our demands. As you say, their plan is game, set, match. Screw the existing homeowners, we are on to the next source of profit.

As far as the last point, that one is very sad, but true. "Get used to it or move" you say. It appears that is what the utopia that Harold Schwartz and Gary Morse created has come to? You would think that the generation of the Morse family, the three siblings that each inherited a BILLION DOLLARS when Gary passed on, would recognize that the GOOD WILL created by their vision was not derived by trying to squees water out of a rock. Harold and Gary understood that if you listen to your clients, and cater to their needs, it will create good will and enough corresponding profits to make you rich beyond your wildest dreams. The new generation is burning up the goodwill off of the family balance sheet at an astronomical pace. I can only hope that they don't totally wipe out the great place they were so fortunate to inherit in our lifetimes.

When this is completed and works out well and is not an eyesore I hope some of the posters will acknowledge it on this Forum.

Given a choice most people would opt for housing nicely done for those getting older than a big box store.

All of the restaurants so far in "Country Clubs" that have failed is an indication that they were not financially supported and people didn't like them and eat there enough to keep them going. People say they want this or that but it is market driven if it succeeds or fails. Restaurants are very tenuous businesses. I wouldn't be surprised to see that Orange Blossom and some of those South of 466A fail too in a year or two.

I don't think the theater that is "the toy of the developers children" will make it either. And we will have another empty building for people to fight about.

Out in the real world restaurants in Country Clubs have not done well historically. Thank Goodness we aren't being charged for food we don't eat like some members of private country clubs have been in the past. I used to enjoy Cane Garden, but not so much anymore.

Villagers want good for cheap. That is hard to provide and will get worse with the beating the economy is taking due to the Pandemic.

The family did not hold on to all the Championship Courses and Country Clubs because they like cutting grass, and cooking.
They are the biggest areas for future development, and as shown, given half a chance, they will develop.
Bigtime!

Just a thought, many folks in The Villages do not want to move, apartment living is a nice transition and still close to their friends, shopping, dr.s, etc. I have only seen how beautiful the designs, landscaping, etc is done in each project. Many CC restaurants have failed as mentioned above, retirees needs are changing, A failed falling down building is not what I want in my backyard. Please be nice!

Can’t wait for all the extra traffic these apartments will bring.
 

Can’t wait for all the extra traffic these apartments will bring. We don’t have enough yet.

The apartments were plan B. The residents did not want to buy Hacienda do the developer moved on. This should be a lesson for the future.

I have no doubt that whatever the developer does, they'll make it look beautiful.

I worry about the traffic.

That's my #1 worry. It is WAY too close to rte 441 and the Morse circle and the hospital to accommodate another 300 residential units. As someone who has to drive across the Boone gate several times every week for work at various hours in each direction, I can tell you there are times when traffic is backed up and potentially hazardous. Especially when an ambulance or other emergency vehicle has to rush through.

These intersections were not planned to accommodate that much traffic. I don't feel it is safe for the developer to expect these intersections to bear even more.

Thank you. I have always said people want good but do not want to pay for it. Restaurants fail because people want more than they want to.pay for. Just read some of the requests.... I am looking for a good whatever but at a reasonable price. People you get what you pay for.

They would've bought it if the developer had asked a reasonable price. It was actually under consideration for awhile.

Default Proper Procedures:
#1) How can the developer demand a one (1) on one (1) secret closed door meeting with elected officials of the ACC? Why is not a violation of the Florida Sunshine Law?

What is the Sunshine Law? Florida's Government-in-the-Sunshine law provides a right of access to governmental proceedings at both the state and local levels. It applies to any gathering of two or more members of the same board to discuss some matter which will foresee ably come before that board for action. (Florida Attorney General - Home Page)

#2) Why have none of the ACC commissioners divulged what was said in that one (1) on one (1) meeting?

#3) It is normal procedure that commissions, planning boards, etc review and approve site plan proposals after a set number of readings. Not be told what to do in closed door meetings!

#4) So the ACC voted to give the amenity fee to the Developer without any information as to what the proposed site plan will be. Will the golf course patrons be allowed to use the unknown amenities of the development?

Go ahead, have at it!

I'm sure the 'toy' theatre is the black box theater at Tierra del Sol with 100 seats. Unusable right now due to seating restrictions with Covid.

Speaking to failed restaurants at CC. When the dining rooms are dark and dreary or when the noise level means you can't have dinner conversation no one will come. When food is mediocre few will come. Do a restaurant right with good food and good service and friendly atmosphere they can do quite well. The country clubs are the only places, mostly, where a larger group of people (14-20) can get a table/s together. Most restaurants cater to smaller, family-type diners.

BIG QUESTIONS HERE.....If the Hacienda Hills property was owned by the Developer, then who owned the pools and the courts? A portion of the amenity fee had to be used to maintain the pool and the courts. So, does the Developer have the right to remove any of the pools or courts as they see fit? If the developer has the right to remove our pools, do we have any recourse?

My husband and I visited since we are considering buying in your area. We stayed at Brownwood. My first thought was additional traffic from the apartments.

While you are probably right about all of this, I think there would be a good market for much smaller units, as in the plans below. A lot of courtyard and patio homes are already 1100 to 1200 square feet. A lot of people living alone don’t need anywhere near that much. Tiny Houses are very popular these days and hard to find. If people look at their lives and realize that they already live in an 1100 to 1500 sq. ft. house, but no one ever visits, or perhaps one or two people on occasion, then a place a third that size has plenty of room for a couch and armchair, a small table, a properly-sized bed (if you live alone, you don’t need a king-size bed—a single bed leaves much more space in the bedroom.). Shelves in a closet can be much more efficient than a chest of drawers. I have rooms that are essentially closed off. I rarely go into them. People living alone or couples may not really need both a living room and a family room, or a formal dining room instead of a breakfast nook.

In a lot of Manhattan apartments, there is only a minimal kitchen, often with a half-height refrigerator. That’s not to my taste, but the understanding is that in New York, a lot of people grab coffee on their way to work, eat something from a food cart for lunch, and eat dinner in a restaurant. Many people rarely cook. There are probably people in The Villages who also rarely cook. Perhaps they would be quite happy with a kitchenette. Also, in Manhattan, a lot of bedrooms are only 10x10, and a lot of apartments are only 350 square feet, even some selling for close to a million.

There are snowbirds who come south for five months of golf, but don’t bring much with them. They may have only a couple suitcases. They don’t need an extra room for their hobbies or for an office. They don’t need 1200 square feet and yard work to pay for all year. If they don’t have relatives or friends coming down for a few weeks, why do they need two bedrooms?

I think that making a sizable percentage of these new apartments tiny would be a good move.

...as well as golf carts negotiating the roundabout will be even more dangerous.

So the lesson is, if you refuse to pay full market value (the value is determined by us, not you) for an obsolete building that is no longer useable, then we will build a large Commercial eyesore that is not in harmony with the existing single family residential neighborhood and Championship golf course surrounding it.

This changes the game, homeowners beware, the deed restrictions that we all have to live with to protect our investments only apply to us, not the developer. So another lesson learned is never consider purchasing a home anywhere close to anything owned by the developer, including all Championship Golf courses. What you think you are purchasing can change dramatically and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it, and to add insult to injury, you paid a premium for that!

That pool and those courts were owned by the Developer. He maintained them and charged a membership fee to use them.

That is different from the pools and courts in the area rec centers. Those are owned by the local Community Development District and maintained with your amenity fees.

As LuvtheVillages says, the facilities at Hacienda Hills are owned by the Developer, as are all (12?) championship golf courses and country club facilities. That's why you have to buy a golf or pool membership or pay to play golf to use them. They are not supported by amenity fees.

If there is no profit from maintaining the championship courses and facilities, that brings up the worrisome possibility of the Developers converting them to other uses that make more income.

The country clubs are owned by the developer, including the pools, buildings, etc. None of the amenity fee was supposed to be used on the country clubs.
The rec centers were built by the developer and sold to the CDD's at a decent markup. They can't touch what they don't own anymore.

I heard an rumor that they are going to use one of the 9 hole golf courses for the apartments

I'm sure you "heard" a rumor.

Nice try.

I also heard from a fairly realiable source that since her 'toy' is too small of a playground, her 'toy' will be upgraded to the now defunct Katie Belles.

If you are upset about this "send a personal letter to AAC Chair Ann Forrester (CDD 2) at ann.forrester@districtgov.org Send her e-mails that her system collapses. IF YOU MUST BE HEARD!!!" There is a meeting, 9AM this Wednesday at the Savannah Center. You can be heard before then and at that meeting if at all possible.

I wonder how you would feel if an apartment building was dumped in your backyard. Part of your golf course gone. Would you “get used to it”?

Already took care of that Wednesday afternoon. As I expected, no response.

And the lesson is?

See post #24