Legal constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates
 

For those who want to educate themselves not do research on court court rulings on vaccine mandates, here's an article on the history of public health and vaccine mandates. . .

Even Conservative Judges Haven’t Shot Down Vaccine Mandates - The American Prospect

So for those who claim that the vaccine mandate is not legal, don't really have much legal ground for support in the last 100 years of court rulings. . .

but they can always hope. . . .

Yup, think about the Baker Act. A person can be incarcerated if they are determined by doctors (medical experts) that they are a danger to themselves or others.

There are numerous other examples. So, we don't have mask and vaccine mandates because the politicians don't want to face the possible public backlash at the polls.

As it seems always for the past decade or so, politics and party are more important than public welfare.

Your opinion. Some like gov control and some enjoy the freedom of controlling their own lives. Right now, at least we have the happy illusion of freedom.

Common, jeez.

NO it is NOT my opinion, it is LAW. Your angry ex-wife can get a few doctors to sign off on your being a danger to yourself and you are committed and you stay there until a doctor says you are no longer a danger.

There are literally hundreds of years of precedence in the same manner. And our legal system is based on precedence.

Wouldn't know about an "ex-wife" as my wife was a keeper. And we are not speaking of mental illness anyway. Play with the law all you wish but real life is dynamic, not static.

I just had my booster shot, doctor ordered. I have no issue with the shots. It still comes down to selfish people. The shot is for everyone you come in contact with and not just about you. If everyone would just care about others everyone would be vaccinated and Covid would not be on the rise. I have no problem if unvaccinated people are not allowed into restaurants, stores and any other indoor activities.

I understand how you feel, BUT.......how about those that cannot get vaccinated for one reason or another? How about those that have had Covid and have been advised by their doctors NOT to get vaccinated yet? No one should be making decisions on other's liberties. I agree that folks should think seriously about getting vaccinated in these difficult times. I do not believe in mandates at this time. If the death rate was higher, perhaps I would change my view. Unfortunately, there are many folks that are too weakly disciplined to make decisions for themselves and need the gov to run their lives and direct them like mindless zombies.

There is no playing with the law, the Baker act is just one example of the government being able to enforce laws to protect the public from individuals, as the OP said in this thread. Children not allowed into school without vaccinations is another, there are literally hundreds on the books. The government CAN and DOES enact laws to protect the public.

Not opinion, just fact.

And obviously, I don't know you or your wife, so I was speaking in general terms.

You keep using the term liberties, and it does not apply, that is in fact an opinion or yours, it is NOT the law.

Personal freedom equals no responsibility

Ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is NO law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as I know Martial Law has not been declared. In America we still have the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and I may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but I respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, I DO NOT demand others to live according to my desires. I don't care for red colored cars, but I do not feel they should be banned from The Villages.

So far the law does not mandate vaccinations or masks. Just because I may be vaccinated and wear a mask if I feel it prudent, I do not demand that of others. I do not infringe upon their liberty to make their own personal choice.

You stated and I responded to, "no one should be making decisions taking away other peoples LIBERTIES". You comment claims you have a liberty to not take vaccines and not wear the mask. That is NOT true.

It is currently not against the law to not do those two, but there is NOTHING in the law or the constitution that says you have a liberty (or right) to those, and yes, people should be making decisions about those things for most citizens because most are not qualified to do it themselves.

What is probably not legal is the way FDA has tricked everyone into thinking the Pfizer vaccine has been approved.....it has not and the BioTech vaccine is approved and still not available and won't be for over a year.

Also FDA has not followed their own approval policies which use strict guidelines for path to approval and those are years worth of trials. :police:

Maybe you're correct. Maybe not. I just don't know enough about it to really know for sure.

What does concern me, however, is the overwhelming ban on dissenting opinions. It seems to me we're being forced to believe only one version of 'facts'. Big tech, social media and mainstream media are effectively banning legitimate debate.

Try bringing up the rise in infections in Israel even in vaccinated folks despite having the highest vaccination rate in the world? Nope. Twitter won't allow any discussion.

Let's talk about Viet Nam having the lowest infection rate in world until it started its mass vaccination program. Now infections in that country are going through the roof. Nope. Facebook will ban you.

What about the publisher that's posting articles on its web site about the vaccines not being nearly as effective as we've been led to believe. Or, recapping some studies showing the vaccines may be temporarily damaging your immune system. Nope. Google will de-platform you and take away your ad revenue.

Advocate for people that have recovered from the 'thank you very much China' COVID not needing the vaccine because their immune system is infinitely better than that of a vaccinated person and probably for a much longer period of time. Nope. The mainstream media labels you as a conspiracy theorist.

We're being told what 'facts' are true and being told the rest is disinformation. The law is being determined with dissenting debate being stifled. And maybe what may be more frightening, a lot of folks are OK with that.

It really depends on whether you’re talking about federal vs state mandates. The federal government does not mandate vaccines for all citizens but can for those that work for any federal branch. States can mandate vaccines for any state agency employees or for participation in any state or locally funded institutions such as public schools and universities. Private companies can mandate vaccines as a condition for employment. Of course there are exception clauses that have to part of any of federal, state or private company mandates. The Baker mandate is somewhat Florida specific although numerous other states have similar laws.

If in the above quoted post, the word 'gov' were to be changed to the word 'Facebook' it would perfectly describe what we are seeing all around us.




Whoops, here is the second quote from mdlnb, that for some reason did not grab in green and I don't have time to fix it. . .

[quote=mdlnb;1996800]ah, but you are not speaking of the law. There is no law mandating the vaccination or masks....yet. As far as i know martial law has not been declared. In america we still have the constitution and bill of rights.

I may not agree with those that refuse to get vaccinated, and i may think that masks have little use if they are not made for this particular virus or worn properly, but i respect other's ability to make their own life choices. On the other hand, i do not demand others to live according to my desires. i don't care for red colored cars, but i do not feel they should be banned from the villages.

- - - -

mdlnb,

And, about those red cars. . .What if all the red car drivers joined together to form a big club where membership meant that members were to drive like idiots, not caring how many innocent pedestrians and stop sign obeying other drivers they were picking off?

Then, what would you think about those red cars?

. . .But, in seriousness, may I ask you how you would feel if you or someone you love or know could not get a heart operation or some other kind of much needed surgery because UNvaccinated Covid patients were hogging the beds in hospitals? It's happening. Hospitals are now concerned about collateral deaths.

Your opinion comes from the freedom and liberty angle, I know. I love freedom and liberty as much as any American. But what is making me really want to hurl is that those beloved words are being used against us by those with ulterior motives. Those who started all this mess of dysinformation and conspiracy theories are in it for the money, the love of chaos, and/or their wanting to undermine our democracy.

(Oh, well, I have probably just wasted too much valuable television time for watching Bosch with Mr. Boomer. . .But, before I go, I hope you will give me an answer about what you think about those collateral deaths that will result from the Unvaccinated refusing to take responsibility -- for their freedom.)

Boomer

My body my choice right???

I think there no cure for this and nobody knows if everyone was vaccinated it would disappear. I highly doubt it?

First, Bosch is a great series. If you like police and/or mystery, watch it.

Second, the vaccines are turning out not to be nearly as effective as we were led to believe. Especially with the Delta variant. Even vaccinated people are contracting the disease and spreading it to others. Those people are more likely to survive the disease but how do you differentiate responsibility for 'collateral deaths' due to victims contracting the disease from unvaccinated people vs. vaccinated people?

The Baker act or something similar is active in about 2/3rds of the states. It is simply an example for those that keep saying the government can't mandate medical treatment or actions on people that don't want them. That is not true, it can, does, and will again.

Will it mandate vaccines or masks, I don't know, but it can.

And yes, in general, the federal government lays out guidelines and the states implement their localized versions of those. And yes, one of the methods of requiring states to follow its (the feds) "recommendations", is to make them mandatory to continue receiving federal funds.

So, we are in complete agreement.

No, your right to choose ends when it affects my health and safety. You can not drive 100mph through a neighborhood, because your right to drive ends when it endangers my life. You can not drive your car while intoxicated because it endangers my life.

So, your body your right? Nope, if you die, your body can not be buried in your back yard, it affects your neighbor's safety.

The number of examples is almost endless.

First, Bosch is a great series. We agree.

Second, the vaccines have NEVER been pitched as 100% effective. They help. They helped more against the original variant they were designed to be used against. Sadly, We, and the rest of the world, failed to take timely actions to stop the original variant from spreading far enough to begin mutating - I believe the common theme at the time was "it is no worse than the flu". ahem...

So, we now have a few variants to deal with. The current vaccines help reduce the impact of getting the delta variant, but do not stop it - as well as it does with the original. So, because we didn't take action when we could, we are now faced with a worse situation, that new variants are happening and we will need to find more ways to stop the spread. It's pretty simple, the more people that get infected, the more opportunities the virus has to mutate. Do nothing and it will mutate often and there is a good chance it will become more deadly.

The Spanish Flu lasted 4 years and killed a lot of people because they did not understand how it was transmitted and how to stop it. We do know how to stop the transmission, but, sadly we aren't. We would rather argue about liberties, and rights, and whether paper masks are useless, and how many feet should stand apart - inside or outside.

Anything at all to argue, rather than simply saying, "How can I help".

You are not free, just for a small understanding, count all the stop signs, speed limit signs and traffic lights you see today.

Please stop calling people selfish. You have no clue why people make the decision they do with their life. Talk about selfish vaxx people running around spreading the virus because they think they are all covered.

Just be nice

And how, pray tell, would that ex wife get a few doctors to agree with her? I have to say, no, that is nearly impossible to occur. If it were that simple, anyone could get MD's to have others committed.

:bigbow::ho: a quick bait & switch there i read about a few days ago re biotech, & note none of these companies would face consequences should something 'go wrong.' mandate or not, NO ONE will force me to take any kind of shot i am not comfortable with. protect yourselves from personal freedom

2 things. These mandates were for deadly and crippling diseases, not for a virus that over 99% of people survive. Secondly, those vaccines had been researched and tested for years, not months, to determine the long term effects. The original Polio vaccine killed 10 children and caused Polio in 40,000 kids before being pulled off the market.

look, i really like you--you make good points, have witty replies to average comments in other threads, BUT, just please give me a sec here-- my husband was refused the shot because they do NOT know how this can affect the brain- there have been adverse reactions in SOME people with neurological conditions, ie:bell's palsy. it is up to YOU to keep YOURSELF healthy -- mask up & social distance YOURSELF if there is major concern. keep far away from those with no mask & live your dream here in the bubble. again-no hard feelings, & have a good one. i stand ready for incoming :boxing2:

Another useless shouting match…. Go do some gardening pls

Once again, YOUR OPINION, not law. And you finally admitted that there is NO law mandating vaccinations and/or masking. Thank you.

[QUOTE=Boomer;1996881]If in the above quoted post, the word 'gov' were to be changed to the word 'Facebook' it would perfectly describe what we are seeing all around us.




Whoops, here is the second quote from mdlnb, that for some reason did not grab in green and I don't have time to fix it. . .


Those deaths are unfortunate. Just because I do not agree with an action someone takes, does not mean that they must conform to my standards. Sorry, but people do die and sometimes it may be a result of someone else's inaction.

I do not understand why folks always resort to using traffic law as an argument about unrelated subjects. Traffic law pertains to those that volunteer to drive. No one MUST drive. That is a something that one wishes to do and by making that choice they also choose to abide by traffic laws. It has nothing to do with vaccinations.

And none of your examples pertain to the subject matter.

Which is freedom? Mask mandates in schools to protect community health or a governor making mask mandates against the law even in privately own businesses without a logical, scientific reason??

and

There is a lot of government control concerning safety of the public. As examples school children must be vaccinated against many diseases before entering School has kindergarteners or otherwise. Cigarettes may not be smoked in many places by law. Seat belts used or you can get ticketed . Speed limits etc

And freedom is often given up for the common good, has Spock said on Star Trek, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

This thread started out pondering the constitutional grounds for vaccine mandates. Predictably, it has made several detours along the way. It never ceases to amaze me just how many armchair lawyers live amongst us, and how willing they are to dispense legal advice and opinion. I get it...too many keyboard kommandoes simply can't help themselves, and must jump into the maelstrom.

As for what is, or is not constitutional, consider this: The final arbiter regarding the constitutionality of any issue is the U.S. Supreme Court. Nine men and women deemed to be the best and the brightest legal minds our country has to offer. Yet, how many "decisions" come down to a vote of 5-4, or even 6-3? So...even the elite constitutional minds in this country cannot agree on what is or is not constitutional. We're the issues so patently cut and dried, would not all votes come down 9-0? Or, is there always some other agenda in play? Food for thought.

So your saying courts don’t let you
present evidence that your sane and your ex wife is lying ?

An Israeli case study conducted by researchers at top Ivy League universities appeared to confirm that natural immunity was 27 times more effective than vaccines at preventing symptomatic transmission of the deadly coronavirus.

“This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant,” they wrote, according to medRxiv.

But according to Harvard epidemiologist Martin Kulldorff, the research debunked the arguments for vaccine mandates.

“Prior COVID disease (many working class) provides better immunity than vaccines (many professionals), so vaccine mandates are not only scientific nonsense, they are also discriminatory and unethical,” Kulldorff wrote Twitter, according to Red Voice Media.

His argument reinforced recent statistical evidence that the vaccine mandates, supported by the Biden administration and many blue-state governors, may be racist, since the majority of “vaccine hesitant” individuals in the US were black or Latino.

Yes debating facts is part of the issue
 

With regard to Vietnam.....based on what I read they were successful during the first wave of the pandemic thanks to strict isolation rules (that surely wouldn't go over well here). They are now suffering a huge spike in cases because only about 1.8% of the population is vaccinated and the Delta variant is running wild because it's more contagious. You made it sound like their spike in cases is due to the vaccine. Perhaps Facebook wouldn't allow debate on this specific subject because it's not debating the facts.

I think they call that socialism. Replace GOD with GOV and you get communism. Sorry, but REAL independent Americans will choose a few deaths over GOV control. And this has nothing to do with traffic laws, so please don't bother with that argument.

What Americans do voluntarily for their fellow man/woman is called charity. What the gov demands you do is called tyranny. Given a choice, Americans do the right thing and do not need a gov nanny demanding what the gov deems appropriate.