Point Counterpoint: Solar Energy in New England
 

To be fair, presenting the other side of solar panels. . .

Rooftop solar was overlooked. Now it's closing a New England power plant. - E&E News by POLITICO

From an individual ROI and cost for rooftop solar in MA, individual installations might not prove to be a great investment return with the amount of clouds and short winter days. But if you get enough small investments online, you might get to critical mass for success. Brownian motion of humans in a free society.

FERC, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has agreed to shut down a small but existing power plant given the amount of rooftop solar in New England.

from a different point of view, there are positives from solar at the critical mass level

Interesting

Complete and unfettered false news.

The residential solar business in New England is a complete disaster, despite the some of the highest levels of government subsidies in the US.

The closing of Mystic 8 & 9 has little or nothing to do with Solar or Wind Power. It has to do with environmental issues, reduced demand and improved prediction tools.

New England’s electric grid could be more stable than anticipated in the next few winters | WBUR News

Getting "news" from E&E, is like only watching FOX news ... unbiased isn't the word that comes to mind.

I didn't read either article but I did check and found a wikipedia entry. Here are some snippets (and yes they all have sources that you can check, at the bottom of the entry page):

So - Eversource, one of the big-league power companies, will get to improve its own plants, and Wynn gets a new casino. Eversource uses solar farms, geothermal energy and wind turbines, in addition to more traditional fossil fuel resources, to generate their power.

We installed 175 solar panels on the 200 ft long barn roof on our farm in Massachusetts in 2014 or so. With SRECs included, our entire energy needs were met with money coming in to us. 8 year payback. We were able to convert our oil furnace to electric. Our typical February electric bill (before converting the house) was $2500.00. Granted, we had a large horse farm with 70X200ft indoor riding arena, apartment and heated barn. But solar was a huge saving for us!
If we had 3phase on the street, we would have done more and sold back to the grid.
This was with the panels covered by snow about 3 months a year. I dont understand why there wasnt a trickle charge melting the snow to allow continuous daily production.
There were only a certain number of net metering setups allowed yearly.
Hail didnt happen often in MA, but I still dont know why we dont have more panels here in FL.

I believe the main reason for the relatively low number of solar installations is the low cost of electricity in FL. This can lead to an actual, or perceived, long payback period. Other factors might be the concern about potential damage during the relatively infrequent tropical storms in this area along with the additional costs associated with removal and reinstallation with a reroofing.

Compared to SECO, Eversource totally sucks from a cost prospective if you are a customer. The cost of their so called green power sources are very expensive and those costs are passed on to their customers. I recently compared our monthly Eversource bill from our Massachusetts home to our SECO bill from our Villages home and the results were shocking. We used about two thirds of the power in Massachusetts and our bill was almost 150% of the SECO bill. I’ll take SECO over Eversource seven days a week and twice on Sundays. To be fair to Eversource, they are mandated to buy overpriced power from sources designated as green, and their costs of trimming trees overhanging power lines in rural New England towns is a factor as well. SECO also doesn’t have to deal with frequent winter power outages from heavy snow, ice, and freezing rain dropping trees and limbs on their above ground power lines. The bottom line with residential roof top solar in New England is that it is uneconomical without government subsidies and forced net metering. I’m all for green power, as long as its economics hold up without taxpayer or rate payer subsidies.

Truestory: NY regulators bankrupted Niagra Mohawk in the late 1990's, which had the lowest cost of generation in the northeast, due to hydro electric plants. The regulators forced them to "purchase alternative sources" at higher prices but didn't allow them to pass along the increased prices to the customers.


All energy has costs, some more than others. . .

Pre retirement work story:
back in the 1990's the high paid consultants' energy forecasts (I worked with some of them) were for the world to start to run out of oil in the 2020's, this decade. Perhaps that forecast has hatched the mind worms of the many politicians, scientists, etc resulting in the expensive transition to "green" energy before we all go the way of the dinosaurs. .

former finance guy

Rooftop panels do not make economic sense in Florida. Typically, the payback period is close to 20 years, and when you reroof, you need to pay thousands of dollars to have the panels removed and reinstalled. They can also cause your roof to develop leaks. The companies that sell these systems lie to customers by presenting a payback calculation that totally ignores the time value of money, which at today's interest rates, doubles the payback period. They also offer a 25-year parts and labor warranty, which no small company could ever be able to fulfill. Another lie is that solar panels will increase the value of your house. It won't. Why should homeowners install solar panels on their roof, when the power company could do the same thing at their power plant with fewer problems?

The Villages makes use of solar panels for the lights in the golf cart tunnels and other spots around the community. Some folks use solar light sticks for lawn and walkway illumination. I absolutely LOVE this. I think it'd be awesome if we could all put up a solar pole that is wired to all the external lighting around our homes. Maybe even to illuminate the inside - put all lights on the same circuit, and everything else can be powered however they're currently powered (some folks have gas stoves).

Lights don't use up a lot of electricity - and can be powered for free once you buy the pole and panel and hook it up. The panels aren't big, I've seen mostly just 2x4' panels on poles less than 3 feet off the ground, set near the house or in front of the shrubbery.

The bigger deal is that Florida doesnt sell SRECs. That was a 12-18000 dollar yearly benefit for us depending on what the selling price was.

In the end, economics always wins. Solar power generation is economically feasible only at scale over the long run. Smaller installations are not good short-term investments currently, and maybe never, as the marginal cost of current electricity sources is lower.

Ironically, environmentalists are at odds over renewable energy that results in practical problems. To get power from large solar panel farms (and wind farms) to areas of high populations, where electricity is in highest demand, requires large new investment in transmission line infrastructure. Environmentalists generally don’t like new construction of transmission lines because it disrupts animals, environment, and so on. The government permitting process for new transmission lines over large areas is long and costly.

Also, solar power only works during daylight when the sun shines, Battery storage systems are needed for power consumption during non-daylight hours and overcast days. Although battery costs are falling, they are hugely expensive for large installations. Someone has to pay for all the costs. (I doubt most SECO customers want to pay more now for possible payback in the distant future.)

Almost certainly, the main reason we do not see more solar power generation in the USA is economics. Without even more government intervention, the private sector will not make solar happen at scale because of economics.

E&E News is owned by Politico. Many believe that Politico leans left.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

I have a friend who owns a farm some distance from TV; some cattle, hogs, chickens, and a sheltered greenhouse-type of building for starting plants as well as a large area away from the greenhouse for the plants to grow once started. Plants are watered automatically according to a set schedule, using rainwater which is stored in huge plastic drums (1,000 L?) and collected from the roof of his shop. Recently he put in a solar array. Big one, on a stand some distance from his house. He also has two storage batteries. His array keeps him in electricity for all routine operations, but the two flies in his ointment are apparently the fact that if clouds or bad weather persist for more than about two days he has to go back on the grid for power as the battery backup isn't sufficient, and the cost of the unit means that it won't pay for itself for (as I understand it) 15 years, and that is without maintenance costs, new batteries, etc.

Solar is great, but all your eggs cannot go into that basket.

The degrowth movement:

Degrowth: A dangerous idea or the answer to the world's biggest problems? | CNN Business

A consideration to research. Nikola Tesla invented a wireles electricity/communication generating tower (Wardenclyffe Tower) in Shoreham, Long Island to transfer power currents around the globe by capturing the Earth's natural energy (ether). This didn't fit into the plans of GE, PSE&G, PECO JP Morgan etc. You would not need their gray box/electric bill. Blimp recharged on the empire state building. Castles had electricity many hundreds of years ago. Chicgo fair 1890, tartarian era.

If solar is so great a deal, why doesn't SECO and the other electric companies rent our roofs and put up solar on them for free? They could harvest the electric and resell it and the homeowner would get free electricity. They would have to throw in a new roof every 10 years in Florida or insure them on their own.

They do in some places, its just not news, just like when patty next door puts panels on his/her roof.. .

The best places for solar panels are roofs for parking lots, over capped trash / dumps where no building can take place, on the sides / medians of some highways where there is space for never to be used for anything else. However, chopping down trees for a solar farm is not the correct answer.

I have a family member who sells solar panels. Just to many problems with solar imho…insurance issues, solar removal and re-install costs to replace roofs, hurricanes, wind and hail damage, and getting stuck with a high cost, useless system if these companies go out of business before the install gets completed etc. Not for me.

Actually, there is a "nearly free" lunch. There are ecovillages around the country that do exactly that. Near-zero waste, clean potable water, self-generating electricity 100% off the grid, chickens that lay eggs, they grow their own wheat and mill their own flour, etc. etc. They had to pay for the initial start up and maintenance for the first half dozen years. But now, they're almost 100% self-sufficient and pay almost nothing to live in their village. They even have physicians who live there who can provide basic medical care, and midwives who can assist with births. They use solar and wind energy, and their toilet waste is composted and used to fertilize the gardens.

That's exactly what North Haven, CT did. They put a solar farm on top of their old landfill. The electricity generated now powers all the municipal buildings in the town.

But do they have a whole bunch of golf courses, swimming pools, pickle-ball courts, town squares with nightly entertainment, all golf cart accessible? The part about having physicians who can provide basic medical care sounds good.

How about 300 ft windmills? FCC Coleman has plenty of undeveloped land to put them on. There are already power lines nearby so they would blend right in.

Of course opportunity costs don’t count for anything. Moving backward to the farm sure seems like a great path to growth and prosperity for children delivered by midwives and the others. I’m sure that many Villagers will be moving out of here to the farm soon. Oh, wait. Do ecovillages have town squares and moonshine happy hours, after cleaning out the barn of course?

https://youtu.be/lOfZLb33uCg

Nuclear fission is coming and should solve all these problems.

They have indoor plumbing, heat and hot water, electricity, internet service, all the comforts of home. One of them has a restaurant. They make everything from scratch, using produce they grow on the farm. A friend of mine lives at this one: Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage – Communal Living | Sustainable Living | Community Living

Skylights
 

. Not sure how to start a new post on here so I’ll reply here & hopefully get a reply back. Here in PA we have Skylights that open & allow heat to escape during the hot summer months. These allow for a nice flow of air through our 2nd floor. Are they utilized in TV. Thanks & if anyone can please share directions on how to create my own post.

Click on "Forum" then "All Forums Home", select a forum topic and then click on "Post New Thread".

Your example offers some insight into the true state of the solar industry and why Florida (& most states) don't use more Solar ... it's not financially feasible.

Only 7 states offer SREC's. SREC's are what makes the world go around, in the solar industry. Without them, the numbers just don't work in most situations.

For those who don't understand SREC credits, here are the basics.

Most Power generators are required to generate a % of their electricity from renewable sources. One economical way to do this, is to simply bypass the regulation and purchase SREC credits.

Alternative producers (including home owners) generate SREC's when they produce solar power. The producer can sell those SREC credits on the open market or they can do what most everyone does: sign up with an aggregator, who will then syndicate & auction large packages of SREC's. The power companies who aren't using renewable sources are allowed to the SREC's and thereby meet the regulations.

SREC's are always a crap shoot, because states usually have "sunset provisions", although most seem to always get renewed.

The second benefit to Solar, is ACRS (& MACRS) ... accelerated cost recovery. You can depreciate your solar installation (construction costs), faster ... which offers tax benefits to many.

The 3rd benefit of installing Solar, is the Federal (& in many cases, state) tax credits. The current Federal Tax Credit is 30%. That's real money. 30% of what you spend, comes directly off your tax liability for the year (assuming you're running a profitable business). Again, "sunsetting" is always threatened with these credits, but they keep on getting renewed.

4th and final benefit, you save on your electric bill.

The long and the short of it is, Solar is not financially feasible, without the associated tax benefits and subsidies. If it were, the taxpayers wouldn't have lost 1/2 Billion dollars when Obama loaned Solyndra all that money.

(FYI. I'm currently doing a $1.5M solar installation on the roof of a new automotive facility, outside of Boston. The Solar Consultant has estimated my "pay back" at 8 years. I'm figuring 10-11 years in reality. I won't have "Net Metering", as many locally owned electric companies are exempt from the requirement to provide Net Metering. I'm likely to meet about 70% of our electrical needs, given weather fluctuations and building constraints. Those savings are built into the "pay back" calculations.)

I think you meant fusion. And I hope you are kidding.

Financially feasible for whom specifically? I am assuming you mean the utility and the regulated customer base.

If from the utility point of view, there are additional costs to managing the solar generation which is put back into the grid to keep the grid stable and balanced.

First, solar generation is not 100% stable, meaning that due to weather effects, generation fluctuates from 0 to 100% of capacity, sometimes very quickly as clouds pass over randomly. . This instability requires different / new equipment installed into the distribution grid for monitoring and managing energy stability, because in the legacy grid, there are no storage facilities.

Second, every distribution utility must buy X amount of electrical power from traditional generation providers through transmission lines, and this process is done on a daily basis and with the solar generation uncertainties, utilities can over purchase traditionally generated electricity wasting money and energy. . .

So adding solar generation capacity directly hooked into the local grid has hidden costs to the consume, so managing both utility profitability and grid stability, utilities favor large credits versus lots of small connections.

Utilities are mostly public companies, which mean that investors want revenue growth, dividends, profits. The major determinate of profits is REVENUE, and utilities have a statutory (government law) which guarantees a customer kWh rate which through a formula generates a 6-8% return on assets. . SO, with the existing large asset base for legacy distribution, poles, transformers, wires, pipes for underground, offices for people, trucks for maintenance, computers and software for managing customer accounts, and regulatory requirements,

cheap electricity and cheaper rates means lower revenue and lower profits, so its not in the public company's best interest and its useable in federal court to maintain the statutory rate of return on assets through rates. . hence the conflict between consumers, shareholders and regulatory agencies.

So that is why Hawaii many years ago with abundant sunshine, stopped the solar program for a while due to how the local utility would remain profitable and and how the distribution grid would stay in balance, until they came up with a solution. .

Remember, as the solar independence grows, the legacy distribution system doesn't go away and the rates become higher to maintain the return on assets on fewer users. .

So the only way for residential success is 100% off the grid, which requires a large capacity and a large storage for night and cloudy days. . supplemented with generators for the long cloudy periods. .

its a condilegma
conundrum, dilemma and enigma all together in one

former finance guy

I did mean fusion and from what I have read could give us a source of very cheap energy down the road

Most of the rest of the world uses it. It's the cheapest source of electricity.

Obviously not for a public utility, as your understanding of the dynamics of providing electricity, alternative sources and the functioning of the electrical grid, is questionable..