Havana CC, a new standard in bad greens
 

Played Kilimanjaro to Kenya today. The practice green was an atrocious mess, but the real greens were even worse.

The first green on Kilimanjaro actually had so much sand on it you could see the tire tread marks from the utility cart in it.

I'm generally an apologist for the conditions of the courses here in TV, based upon what I think is a decent product for the price, but this course shouldn't even be open. Or, at the very least, if they are going to charge greens fees to play it, it should be discounted 50%.

I would bet money that they don't have Lifestyle Visit guests scheduled on it. No way the developer would want any prospective buyers seeing that mess.

It continues to perplex me beyond imagination how that place always has terrible greens, in the same climate and growing conditions that other courses in TV have. They are always the worst of the Championship courses, but the current condition is off the charts bad.

Last time I played it, putts left a "rooster tail" rolling through the sand.

Oh yeah! Plenty of those today. Interrupted only by the balls going airborne every 4 inches.

I also give the courses the benefit of the doubt. As a snowbird, I am happy to be golfing while my friends at home are shoveling.

However, I played Evans Prairie today and the greens were really bad. Embarrassing. I was going to invite friends from home down for a golf weekend, I won’t I am embarrassed.

Although not in terrible shape like the greens at Havana or Evans, I was nonetheless disappointed with the greens at Riley (Palmer) earlier this week. That particular 9 was completely renovated in 2022 and has practically brand new greens that were not in good shape at all, especially when compared to courses like Tierra, Glenview, Lopez, and even Hacienda. It’s both sad and troubling how newly renovated greens can go to crap in less than a year and a half, especially at the Villages signature course. It’s hard to place the blame on anything other than incompetence.

Laurel is just as bad and it's only 4 months old.

This Winter has been tough on the greens not upgraded to tif-eagle. Greens in the Deep South are bermuda. Bermuda does not do well during a cold winter. That being said we have some course superintendents doing a poor job, or have a crummy staff, when maintaining the championship greens. (Maybe both).
That being said kudos to Bonifay and Hacienda. Played both very recently and The greens, not tif, and are in very good condition .

We played it yesterday went in complained to those in charge and will not put it on our list

So I guess it doesn't matter much, which variety is on the Greens, huh?

& TifEagle is Bermuda

It's all the fault of El Niño.

Says V-N.

What was their response to your complaint?

I've complained in the past to John Rohan, and he admitted that they contract out to some companies who it turns out don't do a good job, but it sounded like they have to wait until the end of the contract with the bad company before they can ditch them and get somebody different. This was years ago, but it may still be the situation. I would guess the person who inquired got a canned response like "thank you for bringing this to our attention, we will look into it". And the wheels will turn slowly, and maybe by this summer the greens will recover.

They've been doing this for 20+ years. You'd think they'd have figured something out by now. My understanding is that all of the Championship courses are owned by the same entity. There are , perhaps, a number of different corporate entities involved, but eventually, they all come back to the developer family. If I owned 14 courses, and some were in very nice condition, and some were dreadful, I would make sure everyone knew what the guys running the good courses know.

It makes no sense that all of these courses located within a few miles of each other can have such different conditions. I've read that it may be an issue with water restrictions. Maybe so. If so. If so, they should use more on the greens and less on the fairways. The fairways may then be bad, but at least the greens would be good. If you can't grow good fairways you can play preferred lies. But if the greens are just bumpy rutted sand, you got nothing.

They've been doing this for 20+ years. You'd think they'd have figured something out by now. My understanding is that all of the Championship courses are owned by the same entity. There are , perhaps, a number of different corporate entities involved, but eventually, they all come back to the developer family. If I owned 14 courses, and some were in very nice condition, and some were dreadful, I would make sure everyone knew what the guys running the good courses know.

It makes no sense that all of these courses located within a few miles of each other can have such different conditions. I've read that it may be an issue with water restrictions. Maybe so. If so. If so, they should use more on the greens and less on the fairways. The fairways may then be bad, but at least the greens would be good. If you can't grow good fairways you can play preferred lies. But if the greens are just bumpy rutted sand, you got nothing.

I'm thinking Rohan would be in charge of the Executive conditions, since they are part of the amenities. I'd be surprised if he had anything to do with the maintenance of the Championship courses.

Don’t believe that. Any contract has an escape clause, especially for non performance.

Whomever is maintaining hte courses is not performing according to the performance levels of the contract. And one of the largest private companies in the world (THE DEVELOPER) has contracts that are favorable to them, not the contractor.

I am baffled why there aren’t 4 or 5 professional agronomists that work for the Developer that oversee a few championships.

There are different water withdrawal regulations, depending on that County golf course is in. TDS, Gleview, OB & Lopez can withdraw more water, than the courses south of them.

Water alone, does not drive golf course/grass conditions. It's only one factor, to say nothing of the fact, that this year's rainfall is within normal limits. If faced with a severe water shortage, the typical first line of defense is to limit irrigation to Tees & Greens. The next step, is to reduce "managed turf" (allow some areas to naturalize). I've managed golf courses under severe water restrictions and it's a challenge, but competent Superintendents can do it. That's where I think TV falls short. They've hired a bunch of "landscapers" to maintain golf courses and it's an entirely different business.

I have now been told by 2 people who are employed by TV, that the contractor responsible for TDS, Glenview & Lopez (perhaps OBH) has been re-tasked with supplementing the construction crews for the new golf courses down south (or perhaps, one or more of those courses is in "grow in" status, which likely means the Developer has taken over maintenance.

The Contractor that was handling Palmer and a few others, has taken over Glenview/TDS/Lopez.

Disagree, we played Laurel to Riley and there was a very noticeable deterioration in the quality of the greens after making the turn.

I've had Palmer off my play list for almost 3 weeks, because the Greens were so bad on Riley & Laurel (I don't play Cherry). I go there to hit balls on the range and I'll try it again next week, based on your recommendation that Laurel's greens have improved.

The last time I played, I would have guessed that Riley's greens were diseased. Laurel's were just as bad from a playability standpoint, but I didn't notice as much indication of disease (not that I'm anywhere near an expert on turf management, but I've been involved with it for a long time).

Laurel’s greens had the usual unfixed ball marks of all Villages greens, probably worse than average because it gets played close to maximum capacity, but they weren’t diseased like Riley’s. That can obviously change quickly if the mowers spread whatever is causing the issues.

I had some involvement with a golf course on Martha's Vineyard, that was approved with a condition that ALL turf management, had to be "organic". No artificial chemicals allowed. When you arrived there to play, your golf shoes were "treated" to make sure you didn't bring disease and/or chemicals onto the turf.

The permitting condition has been modified through the years, as it wasn't practical as written. Some chemicals are safer than the "organic alternative" and some turf conditions just don't respond to a readily available, organic solution.

Farm Neck in Oak Bluffs? Love that course.

that's distressing news. Palmer is in terrible shape after having had 2 of the 3 nines closed for improvements. If Glenview/TDS/and Lopez wind up looking like Palmer looks now, I may be done golfing in TV.

Wouldn’t that be called playing the conditions? I thought golf was supposed to be challenging?:duck:

Well, it's nicer if when you roll a ball on the green the line and speed you impart on the ball has some influence on where it ends up, as opposed to which rut, pothole, or tumbleweed it hits along the way.

It's challenging enough on smooth greens.

How would you enjoy playing tennis or pickleball on a court full of weeds and potholes. It would be challenging, but it wouldn't be very much fun.

Try getting into New Zealand with soil residue on golf shoes or on clubs.
Ours were checked both times we went there, and the bag the clubs were in.
We knew in advance, so had no problem.

Same with fly fishing up north. Can no longer use boots with felt soles, which help prevent slipping on rocks. The felt can hold an invasive algae referred to as “rock snot” and hitchhike from one body of water to another.

Lots of tennis and pickleball courts have lumps, leaves, and twigs on them . Saddlebrook tennis courts on south end last time I played there had more moguls than first responders putt putt course. Last time I played lopez clay courts it was like playing on plowed field.

But, I can see your point when you paying $$ to play sub par championship course. All I had to was sweep lopez courts smooth. I usually bring my blower also.

News Flash
 

You could have heard that from your barber, just as factual as 2 TV employees

Why would the condition of any of the amenities managed by the "developers" surprise Villagers? We are on the 3rd and 4th generations of the founding families.

Take a drive from the tip of the north side of TV to the southern most side of T V. One can easily see where the Baby Boomer's "dream" development meets the beginning of Gen Z's revenue $$$ development.

Work ethics and etiquette went out the window when millennial kids were encouraged to no longer use formalities like "Mr. and Mrs." But instead were told to use first names.

Covid was a great excuse for work ethic to cease to exist.

Baby Boomers are living in the past. Gen Z could careless about the sticks on courts or the sand on the greens. $$$$ doesn't motivate their work ethic, they've grown up in imaginary video-land.

Lowering expectations is the future.

FYI, the Central Florida chapter of the National Optimist's Club meets every third Wednesday of the month :1rotfl::1rotfl::1rotfl:

No.

Farm Neck is a great course to play. I've played it 100's of times.

Edgartown Golf Club is pretty great too, although it's really only a 14 hole golf course and private.

Vineyard Golf Club is the newer, more private course, that had a permit that required it be 100% Organic. Didn't work.

Farm Neck was Bill Clinton's favorite golf course, until he and some of his friends (Owen Larkin & others), came up with a scam to build Vineyard Golf Club, so they had their own course to play on. Gil Hanse renovated the club about 8-10 years ago and I understand it's now a decent course. Golf Magazine voted it Best New Course in the US, back in 2015. The original design was uninspiring.

To my knowledge, my barber has never lied to me.

Go to Harbor shills - less money and Great conditions!!

That's a huge turn-around.............the conditions have been poor for years.

Patchy greens, dirt/mud cart paths, sandless sand-traps & a crabby guy behind the counter in the pro shop.

:shrug:

Been here for 10 years on this site for 7 of them. Have never seen more complaining about conditions on the golf courses. Where is Ricky Craig when we need him although we did meet with him a few years ago to express our displeasure with Havana and all he did was lie to us. Havana still is awful and he has done nothing to make improvements.

To all you newbie Villagers: After you're here a short while you'll learn which championship courses to avoid in the winter and again in the summer. Havana, for example, has ALWAYS had issues in the middle/late winter months. Lopez, for example, has rough that eats your ball up in the late summer. Glenview, for example, is usually always in good condition. Palmer, for example, Cherry Hill gets bad, Riley and Laurel usually stay OK. There are different soils at different courses around TV and they affect the course conditions dramatically. Remember it's winter...you cannot expect summer conditions in the winter. Just learn what to avoid when and you'll be fine.

After hearing so much about Harbor Hills, I went and played it 2 weeks ago.

There are 2 or 3 courses on campus, in significantly better condition than Harbor Hills was in, when I played it. It is a little more interesting golf course, than some of the on campus courses.

All this talk about winter conditions....The Daily Sun just had an article about this winter having more rain than usual so lack of water should not be an issue and, as far as I know, we have not had a single frost this winter. My conclusion is: lack of spending necessary money by TV to make conditions better and incompetence on the staff of maintenance.

It continues to amaze me how some people will make excuses for poor conditions on some of these courses. Too hot ,too cold, no rain, too much rain and on and on. Your right grass does not grow in the winter then why are the mowers out. It can rain all day yet the next morning the sprinklers are on. Could it be that the Villages hires the lowest bid and gets people that have no idea what they are doing. Just look at Palmer, the greens are just 3 years old and they have just about killed them because of over watering. Inept plus no real supervision by the powers above leads to these conditions

Along with explosive growth comes the need for an equal amount of on-going maintenance, which apparently has not been planned and budgeted for.