Executive Golf Course Conditions
 

We play the courses between 44 and 466 (but including Saddlebrook and Hawkes Bay).
The greens on almost all of these courses are in extremely very poor condition.
Not only that, as of this date there are now 6 courses that are closed, in that area.
It seems totally counterproductive to have 6 courses closed during what is the "Highest Use Season".
The ability to have decent executive golfing available was one of the specific reasons for locating to T.V.
It now seems to be an after-thought for T.V. management.
Really needs attention from a professional golf course maintenance co.
Also, many golfers are coming from the areas South of 44.

exec.courses
 

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

Golfers complaints are now almost exceeding dog poop complaints

Lots of smart retirees here in The Villages. Maybe one of them an come up with a way to process the dog poop into a solution to fix the poor green conditions?

use the dog poop as a fertilizer:spoken:

exec.courses
 

Matter of fact, a professional course manager was hired several season ago.

Mitch.Leininger@districtgov.org or call 352-674-1885.

I'm sure he's heard it all. I hope he gets the necessary budget to make improvements.

Is there a problem with south of 44 golfers playing north or are only north of 44 golfers allowed to play up there?

I was wondering that too. Sometimes those DA statements need to be called out.

Coming to The Villages, was a huge step up in his career. He hadn't been a superintendent for very long and never for something approaching the complexity of The Villages.

Additional note from originator
 

If we have a professional, what are his quilifcations, and why are the courses getting worse and being closed? Shouldn't they be getting better???
Also, nothing against more from south of 44 coming to play. All from T.V. can play on any
course, what was the meaning is that more are playing and there are 6 closed courses.

Insights
 

Have you insights to share concerning current conditions - like those Tarpon Boil greens, such as obvious missteps that might've been made due to lack of "complexity understanding"?

Have now sent inquiries to the two email addresses listed in this thread.

There've also been some mentions of an adequate budget in this thread. Is there a "Reader's Digest" summary somewhere of how such budget decisions are made and the sources of the funds for that budget? TIA

DALE....so not true!! Hawkes Bay greens were great. Saddlebrook was not as good, but better than the courses further south

He has a decent resume, growing from one job to another. My concern is he’s been here since 2019, and the courses haven’t improved.

His certificate in turf grass is from Penn State, one of the best in the country.

My solution would be to have 4 Mitches, one for each section of the Villages.
I just hope he is empowered to run the executives

It's hard to image the courses in TV get more play than those in Myrtle Beach and they have always looked great, even in high season.

Disagree on Hawkes Bay being great, played it 3 times in Feb. NOT GREAT in my view, guess we all look at it differently.

Mitch Leininger spent the first eleven plus years after college in logistics for the airline industry, not using his turf management degree. He has recent superintendent experience at a resort course with most likely a big budget and lots of experienced folks to rely on. IMO, it was a stretch to hire him to oversee our execs. And now, he is being supervised by someone with thirty years Coast Guard experience. Something seems amiss in the decision making process. Again, just my opinion.

I played Hawks Bay on the 29th. The greens were in poor shape, as bad as Evans Prairie

Just got back from a round at Hilltop. Greens in excellent shape; fairways a bit spotty here and there but overall not too bad.

I obviously haven't seen a resume, only his LinkedIn.

I don't think he has a college degree and if he does, I doubt it's in Turf Management. His LinkedIn says he has a "Certificate" in Turf Manaagement from Penn State.

The Certificate Program at Penn State is offered to Golf Superintendents around the country. It's a "course", not a program. If I'm not mistaken, it's an online course that costs about $5000.

If that's indeed what he has, it's a long way away from a Turf Management Degree, from the #1 Agronomy program in the world.

I rarely play execs, but had a few hours today and played gray fox for the first time. Not a bad layout as these course go and I liked the fact that there were adjacent homes on only 2 holes. The greens actually ran fairly true and fast, but......as the old saying goes, you can paint dirt green, but in the end, it's still dirt.

Penn State Dow hav e 2 year program, that results in a certificate form the turf grass program.
Golf Course Turfgrass Management Program — Undergraduate — Department of Plant Science

Walnut Grove
 

Just played Walnut Grove. Greens great, real grass, however kind of slow. Not dirt!!!

I played Palmer. Laurel is still improving, but the greens aren't very fast.

Riley's been Top Dressed and running about 7.5. Generally, Top Dressing on Bermuda is done in the summer or if done in cooler months, only a very light application is made. I suspect the point of the Top Dressing this week, was to level out and smooth the greens, where they've lost grass.

I guessed it was this one: Turfgrass Management, Basic Undergraduate Certificate Online - Penn State World Campus

If he went to Penn State got a legitimate in-house Certificate/Degree from Penn State School of Agronomy, he should see if he can get his money back. I wouldn't be so harsh if he was new to the job, but after 4 years of deteriorating conditions, it's too long running to be blamed on the last guy.

So someone here knows the answer to this question. The pay rate of public employees (CDD) are public information. I understand (sort of) that the relationship of the CDD's and various outside contractors is confusing and convoluted. Who exactly does Ricky Craig and/or Mitch Leininger actually work for and what do they get paid?

I'm guessing they're vastly under-paid for the marketplace at large. Quality Superintendents make good money these days. Not like it was 10 years ago, but a good super at a private course in the Northeast is at least $125K-$175K. The nationwide average for private courses is over $115,000. I doubt TV is paying anywhere near that kind of money.

I have to disagree with your statement blaming Mitch. If you notice all the courses that are NOT being complained about all have a common theme. Those courses have been renovated since Mitch has come on board in 2019.

I guess I would see it as the opposite. There shouldn't be as much complaining about recently renovated courses. They should be in decent shape. To say nothing of the fact, that courses shouldn't have to go through a major renovated every 10-15 years.

If he's the guy in charge and the courses aren't in acceptable condition, who should get blamed? The Ambassadors? The Starters? The guys mowing the grass?

Edit:

The Amenities Authority Committee (AAC) budgeted $1.9M for the renovation of Chula Vista and Amberwood [https://www.**************.com/2024/...golf-courses/]

The low bidder, came in at $1.4M ... the AAC is considering it.

The low bidder was a company called Landirr Inc, out of Sanford.

Likely in anticipation of this contract, Landirr Inc is advertising for a Project Manager / Superintendent Golf Course Construction.

IMO, the Job Description is ridiculous. They want to hire a Project Manager, who's also an on-site Job Superintendent, as well as a heavy equipment operator. []Just a moment.... Curiously, the Job Posting doesn't require the applicant to have experience with Project Management/Scheduling Software.

I can't imagine doing $1.4M public bid, construction job, without a Project Manager at least 1/2 time and I would want a full-time, on-site Superintendent ... who's not spending time, operating equipment and installing irrigation. Will the AAC hire a "Clerk of the Works" to oversee the job? I suspect not, but I don't know.

In the inflationary market we're in right now, how does a labor intensive bid, come in at 25% under budget?

The problem isn’t the golfers going north to play, they have to go where the courses are. Who can fault that? The problem is that they continue to build a crap load of houses without adding nearly enough golf, resulting in a free fall of the ratio of available golf holes per rooftop.

Forgot about the road conditions on Morse north of 466 and Costco

Hilltop was completely re grassed in 2023

Why don't you golfers file a class action lawsuit against TV? You are paying for an amenity that TV promotes to prospective buyers but in reality is failing to provide for current residents. Complaining and writing letters will only get you hollow promises.

I don't know if new course Super is compitant or not, but the budget doesn't seem to be there for the extreme number of executive golf courses that are unplayable. The greens in the trio Bonita, Red Fish Run and Tarpon Boil all discusting condition. Can't put a ball along any line chosen without it moving left & right and imposible to figure out the speed with spots of grass and most areas rolled dirt.Really terrible. Many fo the Championship nines are in poor condition as well. Some that just had their greens replaced in the last few years. $70 -$75 is rediculous and you use your own golf cart.

Consult the USGA
 

Let's all agree that the greens at all the courses, championship as well as executive, are not good. In some instances, they are horrible. I don't know who to blame; instead, I'm more interested in fixing the problems than fixing the blame.

Before I moved to TV, if someone had told me that there is a problem in growing grass in central Florida, I would have laughed. However, we clearly have a problem in TV.

The USGA has a group of experienced professionals that are available for golf courses to consult with and to make recommendations which range from the variety of grasses, irrigations systems, to maintenance. The Villages would do well to hire the USGA.

I bemoan the disregard many golfers in TV have for the courses, including not filling divots, fixing ball marks, and driving carts where they do not belong. As troubling as the practices of many golfers is, the fact is that these things do not completely destroy greens as is currently happening.

You Think Its Bad Now
 

What will the conditions of the courses be like in 3 to 5 years? TV are not keeping up with home and golf course construction. There were 12 championship and 40 Executive courses before the building boom south of 44 started. How many new families have moved in since then. How many new courses have been built in that time. Don't count the pitch 'n putts & putt putt. They are not real courses and should not be counted in the total holes that TV like to brag about.

I have had to give up golf due to medical reasons. In the past 20 months, the course conditions have deteriorated, course closures have increased, and tee times are becoming harder to get according what I read on TOTV.

Maybe the powers that be should slow down the new home construction and let the GC construction catch up to the needs of golfing community, both in new courses and in the the conditions of the existing courses. Word will get out that TV's golf is having issues.

I think it's even worse than you suggest. It seems there are always courses being "renovated", which seems to mean, torn up and the grass replaced and bunkers re-worked.

I take it from your name, you were probably a member of Winged Foot? If I'm not mistaken, Winged Foot went over 90 years, without a major renovation (other than some greens/bunker work). Day after day, week after week, winter or summer, those golf courses have been maintained. "Deferred maintenance" or lack of daily attention, is the road to ruination in the golf course business.

FB Greenm condition page
 

Has anyone started a FB page for green conditions in TV? Seems to be way overdue. Would like to enjoy the rounds I pay for but Ill go to Continental if need be.

Accurate diagnoses
 

I wrote to a couple of the email addresses posted here, primarily wondering if a fungus had been the culprit as had been speculated here. Got a surprisingly long response from one of them. The interesting part was this:

"As for Tarpon we are not sure why some of the greens are in worse conditions than others. We have sent soil samples out to check it there is a disease and we have not gotten the results back". I then suggested that sharing his info in a public forum might be a good idea. . .

I lived for many years in a golf community in Savannah. It was standard practice there to overseed those Bermuda greens (and sometimes the fairways) during the dormant periods. I think I just read somewhere that at least some tee boxes here get at least some degree of rye overseeding.

I have no idea whether that is done here on the championships' greens, but pretty certain it isn't on the executives. When I first saw the remaining green patches on those Tarpon Boil greens, it brought to mind overseeded rye, and my initial assumption was that this was a case of overseeding "failing to completely take". IIRC, it looked like those bright green, rye grass-looking patches hadn't been recently mown, either. Pondered some possible reasons for why that might be, but by the time I finished that nine I was mostly just confused.

Are the championship course greens here overseeded in the winter? TIA

I think the OP was referred to golfers who live south of 44 where all of the new homes are being built now coming up north to golf because the lack of courses yet to be built. I have noticed that the courses in the far north of the villages are actually being underutilized. Several weeks now I've golfed Walnut Grove and others up north. Every single time we've gotten off early. The starter told me almost every day there is a significant amount of open teetimes in the north golf courses… For some of you it may be It may be worth the drive

Video
 

Have been enjoying this fellow's videos of his play of our courses. This one shows the Redfish Run greens from a week or so back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On4ExzVQLj0

I understand The Villages used to over-seed at least the Championship Courses, but have been told it's no longer done, anywhere in TV. What you're probably seeing, is small patches of annual rye, that's come in from someone's shoes or the wind or whatever. (I have seen some Tee Boxes on the Championship courses, that there seems to more than an incidental amount of Annual Rye and maybe some Bluegrass mixed in.)

Were you at The Landings? I almost bought there. Plenty of good golf to be had.

Ryes
 

Had no idea there were "annual" ryes, and hadn't considered the possibility that the greens here might have other grasses mixed in with the Bermuda. But, that could make a lot of sense, now that I think about it. I'm also learning that I'm not that good at identifying different grass species.

Got here last May and presumed that our new yard was nothing but a wonderful version of zoysia. It's since become clear that there's tons of Bermuda mixed in. Did some home grown "plugging" from another part of the yard after a successful treatment for mole crickets (excellent diagnosis and treatment by Dean's). It "appears" that this zoysia doesn't go dormant (it's still bright green) - at least not in a manner that resembles what the Bermuda does. My plugs seem to have filled in nicely, at least laterally, but it looks like it could be years before it reaches mowing height. :-)

Lived at The Landings for 36 years. Our builder let me experiment with a finer blade zoysia. One of my many failed experiments. :-) The Club did try a wider blade zoysia around the bunkers and tee boxes for a couple of the new courses, but it apparently just doesn't grow back fast enough to be suitable, at least in that area. Have researched getting rid of the Bermuda in the lawn, but it's looking like a no-go.