Long time TV Residents & Golf
 

So I have a question.

Having been in the golf course business, I'm baffled by The Villages approach to golf course maintenance.

Two of the biggest problems facing golf course managers all over the world, is the cost of equipment and the difficulty of staffing (the other is weather).

Because in much of the world, golf is "seasonal", it's difficult and costly to maintain staff, particularly when you have to layoff 75% of your staff, during the off season. The Villages does not face this dilemma.

Because the golf courses are so localized, a 1st Class General Superintendent (read that as highly paid) can probably manage a staff of 8-10 "local superintendents".

The cost of equipment to maintain a golf course, is a big deal. Should a course buy its own "rolling equipment", even if it's only going to be used a dozen time per year? Should a course buy its own Aeration equipment, both hollow-tine & deep, when a course is only going to be aerated twice a year? How many Power Rakes can we justify? How large of a "sod farm" should we have?

With over 50 Executive Golf courses to be maintained, The Villages could use that equipment, 365 days/year.

The same theory goes for heavy-equipment, given The Villages always seems to be renovating 4-6 courses.

So my question is, has The Villages ever managed their own golf maintenance and/or renovation projects? If not, why not? The "economies of scale", seem to dictate that approach, does it not?

Just a window from the outside looking in, but it seems that The Villages golf operations could be much more efficient, productive and professional, if it were all centralized, under professional leadership and direction. Am I missing something?

I am sure you are retired, but you sound like you have very valid points, perhaps you could try contacting property maintenance and having a discussion with them, maybe offer your services for a short time.

The Villages does not maintain over 50 Executive courses.

:rolleyes: YES ......... And thanks for asking. :ho:

My guess would be that they are in the “Land Development / Home Building” business and not the golf course maintenance business. They contract out all their maintenance ; landscaping, mowing, ponds, water, etc.,

This way they also don’t have to worry about providing health / retirement benefits to all the extra staff.

They also don’t have to worry about lawsuits should anything go wrong.

I'm using the words "The Villages", in the vernacular & as for the number, I keep reading different #'s. 50 is a close enough approximation of the number of golf courses in TV, isn't? I can do some research and may come up with the exact number?

I don't think my point changes, if it's 38 or 43, does it?

There's a letter to Rickey Craig on my computer, I've revised at least 10 times, but still haven't sent it. I've met Rickey once and he seems like a good guy and from my short conversation with him, competent. I've never met the guy who's in charge of the Executive Courses. I'm sure they'd probably offer me a job as an Ambassador ... which means I won't live to 72, someone will shoot me.

I'm mostly retired, but bored to death ... which puts me on TOTV more than I should be.

The course I belonged to up north rolled greens at least four times a week. They were quite fast. The Super would post the putting green speed daily prior to tournaments; always above 11, and usually higher.

With currently 41 executive courses, 3 pitch & putt and 4 putting, I'd say you're pretty close!

No issue with your wrong number of courses, just including the number you stated.

"vernacular"???:
a) the language or dialect spoken by the ordinary people in a particular country or region.
b) using the form of a language that a particular group of speakers use naturally, especially in informal situations

Do you mean you are using the words "The Villages" more generically???....including the Districts??

The Villages is a land development company..........develop & sell.
Mowing & fertilizing are not core businesses.
When profitable / efficient, they sell off non-core functions (CDD's, water treatment, etc.).
I think that's what you are missing.........it's not centralized, hasn't been "forever" and is not what a land development company focuses on.

:ho:

How can you be bored here? No hobbies or interests or expanding experiences?

Husband plays four times a week, 18 holes, doesn't come home complaining. He is 83. Most people know that the golf here is different than what we have left.......and so are we, mostly. This is a hugely successful development here, golf and all. If it ain't broke, why fix it???

The developer should follow in a common theme they go by and create their own golf maintenance company. They could take advantage of the huge economies of scale involved in owning specialized equipment that might only be used once a month on each course.

I honestly don't know how some of the smaller muni courses up north can maintain fairly good conditions just using a small team of seasonal golf maintenance workers and limited equipment.

Call him and see if he'll take a 50% pay cut & come work here in The Villages!

When I used the words "The Villages", I was meaning the CDD's & all the other entities involved with golf in The Villages (but you already know what I meant). Folks in The Villages seem to lump the entities all together, so I used "vernacular" ... it's such a good word.

"Generically" probably would have worked as well and maybe even better. If you prefer, the next time I lump them all together, I'll use "generic", so you don't have waste your valuable time, looking words up in a dictionary.

I still haven't figured out all the various entities involved and probably never will. I know that Staff at the Championship Golf Courses (that the "Developer" owns), are now employees of some other entity. One of the CDD's, I think? I don't really understand how all that works, but it's been going on since November.

The point is, there are somewhere approaching 50-60 golf courses, all managed and/or owned by different, but related entities. Seems that there should be some economy of scale to be had.

That is the issue - a lot of people think it is broken.

Just read the posts about the condition of the executive and championship courses!

Thanks for providing those clarifications to the OP’s posting. Makes a world of difference and definitely adds value to the discourse.

Outsourcing will not shield you from liability. Lawyers will follow the money and The Villages has plenty. Jurors are sympathetic towards plaintiffs.

The championship courses are privately ran the developer just leases them out to private companies. The executive course are owned by the development districts not the developer.

Yes, they do. But that is because most residents have not taken the time to learn how our community works. There are many who that believe that the Morse family owns everything inside 'the bubble'.

Since you have time, I suggest that a good place to begin is to develop an understanding of all the parts and pieces of "The Villages". It is well worth the time. Take a look at Resident Academy (hopefully the still offer it).

Shoulda, woulda, coulda! I don't golf now but used to. My other 1/2 does and has for years, so not a rooky. I never hear complaints! A different slant on this "conversation"----it seems no matter what the subject, there are folks who seem to be "experts" or have opinions on how things should be going. One common comment is----"we didn't have this/that where we came from!!" A couple of people on here hit it on the head---T.V. is a business and it's to build houses. NOT provide you stellar (fill in the blank) whatever you feel we need. Would it all be wonderful and nice? Yep!! Central Florida was a rural area and not a metro one. People here came for "Life-styles"---loved what they saw and decided to move here. From all the complaints it seems "some" didn't do their homework. Think the prison and the quarry as well as the Interstate!!! THIS is MY opinion!!! On another note----social media sites are great entertainment!!:posting:

Some users on this site post just to post.

Maybe it is centralized and that is why so many of the courses are in HORRIBLE shape??

So no one knows the answer to my question?

Did the Developer ever self-maintain the Championship Golf Courses (post-construction)?

Did the controlling CDD's ever self-maintain the Executive courses in their portfolio or contract out the maintenance to a single entity?

Golf Course Maintenance
 

The course maintenance is difficult with the amount of play at this time of year. Not only for the executive courses but also the championship ones.

With the growth of TV to the south new golf courses are not keeping pace with the population growth. They keep adding pitch and putts and putting courses. While fun to play they do not reduce the play on the traditional courses.

Seems like houses on land instead of new courses is the priority.

Perhaps for guests and renters there should be a limited amount of times a week they can play. Also for every so many new villages added there should be a requirement for 1 new executive course. The number could be higher for championship courses.

The developer still owns the course.

It is not.

The CDD's & the Developer out-source all golf course maintenance.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the outside contractors have business relationships with the people involved with the aforementioned entities, but that's strictly wild speculation.

The Villages (or the various neighborhoods) is not a business, it is a community.

The "Developer" is a business.

The CDD's are GOVERNMENT.

The Developer promised everyone who bought a home in TV, reasonable access to decent golf.

The CDD's obligation, is to maintain the infrastructure and amenities the Developer provided and promised the residents.

This is no different than someone who bought a home on a beautiful, private, tree lined street a developer built and then the city or town turned it into a dirt road. They'd be hell to pay.

It really is that simple.

Not all championship courses are sourced to outside maintenance crews. Two or possibly three courses are maintained by maintenance staffs that are employees of TV’s….not the district. SO is one course maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

When you say, "maintenance staffs that are employees of TV", I assume you mean "employees of the Developer/golf course owner" ?

I was told by numerous sources, that all the Championship courses were out-sourced for maintenance. I'd be curious to know which courses are maintained by actual employees of the Developer.

Yes, that’s what I mean.

As I mentioned, Southern Oaks is maintained by a staff that is employed by The Villages, (developer). I think, but not 100% sure, that TDS is also maintained by a staff employed by TV’s.

I agree with your points on centralized management of the executive courses. The same can be said for the championship courses which could be under the same management but I believe they are completely separated free m each other. The question is how to get it done.

Probably over successful as a development, but unfortunately conditions and maintenance, has not kept up with the demand and extra wear and tear on existing golf courses.
My wife and I have not golfed for several years now, but old friends in TV are unanimous in saying how bad some of the Championship courses are, and that far too many Execs are dire.
Something is definitely broken, and needs fixing, and even the largest 'Rose Tinted' spectacles need a clean now and again!
What is new, and unheard of, is even some of the diehards, who would attack any detrimental post or poster on any subject concerning The Villages on TOTV, are voicing dissatisfaction with course conditions.
There is definitely something wrong.

I need to correct my claim about TDS. I just looked on Golf The Villages and it says that maintenance is handled by Down To Earth.

im not sure who is higher,rick craig or mitch leininger dir of golf 352 674 1885. give them hell.

TDS isn't maintained by the Developer, based on what 2 different employees told me, in the last 2 weeks. According to what I was told, the "contractor" who maintained TDS, GV & Lopez has been moved down "south" to help with construction and/or grow in. The contractor that maintains Palmer & others, has taken over GV, TDS & LL.

The information flow in TV isn't always credible, but the people who told me this, *should* know the facts.

[Just read your correction. That follows what I've been told. Thanks for posting it]

I believe the Rickey Craig is #1 with the Championship courses and Leininger is #1 with Executive courses.

I'd love to go to work for the Villages golf operation and would do it for much less than 1/2 what I was getting paid, when I had to make a living. That said, I doubt they'd want me. I'm much too opinionated and not one to "toe the company line", when things are amiss.

If I ever hear that TV really wants to make a change in the way they manage and operate their golf courses. I'll be first in line at the job window.

I have been here for18+ years. In my opinion the Director of Golf Course Operations 18 years ago and developed the Tee Time System, which is an excellent system. Unfortunately his educational expertise was not related to golf, and wasn’t the person to properly handle golf course future development and maintenance. In addition The Villages courses have been constructed by one contractor that completed the projects within the budget the Developer allowed, which in many areas were below USGA standards, thus contributing to ongoing maintenance issues. Some of the north’s Championship course renovations, ie: Lopez greens not originally built to USGA Spec’s, revealed the less expensive construction. For me I believe The Developer has done a spectacular job with the ammenities and their quality offered to the residents. The exception seems to be in the quality of Villages Golf Courses, which in my belief was initiallyThe Developer’s lack of GOLF expertise to hire the contractors and employees necessary to job they believed would happen, thus contributing to the ongoing maintenance issues.

`

Rolled greens. People here are lucky to have greens which consist of having grass on more than 50% on the surface area and mowed(exec courses)

A Villages Golf Curiosity
 

Last Wednesday I golfed Destin to fort Walton at Bonifay. I was a fourth on my reservation and the other three were together on another reservation. As such I could use my cart and they could use the two carts they came in. That’s the rule btw.

With three carts one must drive in the rough and use the 90 degree rule to cross the fairway. To my surprise, the other two carts also drove the rough and used the 90 degree rule or walked from the rough to their ball if it was near. It was not a 90 degree rule day.

These three as well as I sanded or replaced divots and fixed their ball marks. We also all fixed any other ball marks we found.

That’s how it should be done. All greens were in great shape btw.