substandard infrastructure?
 

Any civil engineers on this forum?

It seems like there is a report of some part of the drainage, ponds, and/or home foundations failing in The Villages quite often. Sometimes it is in areas only a few years old.

Is this normal? My neighborhood in Tennessee was over 70 years old and we did not have similar issues. Maybe it is just reported in the local newspaper more often but I really don't know. My gut says it is due to substandard building practices but I have no information to back that up.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others with some experience in this arena.

Report, what report?

Did you attend the PWAC meeting today where this was discussed?

My understanding of what was explained is that the stormwater pipes installed at the time met the applicable code. Since then, perhaps due to failures, the code has been changed. I have no idea if this is true but that is what I believe I heard.

Tennessee, NY, and MD may have been built to different code, the water may be less corrosive, or they may not have the same amount of pipe in the ground waiting to fail. It also could be that the code in FL was lacking at the time and has been changed since. It is also possible that the Developer used pipe that was not up to code but with so many miles of pipe to fail and such a focus on Florida's Friendliest Home Town, that would seem to be a risk to the reputation of the Villages that he would be unlikely to take.

Obviously I meant in the news

I did not attend that meeting. I was just on my mind after the news piece on the $500K plus that must be paid (not by the developer) to repair pipes at a pond to prevent damage to the nearby homes.

The level of over-sight for construction work in FL in general, is abysmal. Both private and public work. You need look no farther than the project on 27/441 that's taken almost 4 years and it seems no closer to completion now, than it was 4 years ago.

I think your premise is reasonable and from my observation, the quality of the basic infra-structure in TV, as well as the (lack of) ongoing maintenance, certainly doesn't match the quality of infra-structure work that occurs in major metro areas.

You need to remember, the infra-structure of The Villages is designed and build by a private developer and then maintained (paid for), directly by the people who use it. There's really no city, town, country or state, on the hook for the cost of repair & maintenance.

Two thoughts. First, any developer has to meet then current building codes, and typically only builds out to the codes minimum standards in an effort to minimize costs and maximize profits. Can’t blame the developer, that’s what they do. Blame substandard codes. Second, it’s easy to build to minimum codes when the developer is fully aware that there is a captive buyer lined up to purchase said infrastructure and has to absorb the consequences of that action. Put the blame on that where you please. I’ll leave it alone for the certain blowback my opinion would receive.

Did your neighborhood back in Tennessee have the same elaborate drainage system and retention pond system that has been built here? Let’s compare apples to apples.

How many failures have there been?

Is it too high for a system were +99.??% of the pipe functions without failure, in the hundreds ( maybe thousands) of miles of storm water pipes installed over 30+ years?

Failures I've seen in the recent areas appear more related to improper installation/ connections/ backfill than design.

The perfect is the enemy of the good enough.

Provide Proof.

Proof that he is of the opinion that IT SEEMS there's a report of this happening often?

Why would he need to prove his perception of something? It's his perception of something. If he had said "This is happening often" you could maybe ask him to clarify what he considers "often" and provide reports to support that.

But he didn't say that. He said IT SEEMS that there are reports of it happening often. That doesn't involve the need for proof.

[QUOTE=BrianL99;2392230]The level of over-sight for construction work in FL in general, is abysmal. Both private and public work. You need look no farther than the project on 27/441 that's taken almost 4 years and it seems no closer to completion now, than it was 4 years ago.

I think your premise is reasonable and from my observation, the quality of the basic infra-structure in TV, as well as the (lack of) ongoing maintenance, certainly doesn't match the quality of infra-structure work that occurs in major metro areas.

You need to remember, the infra-structure of The Villages is designed and build by a private developer and then maintained (paid for), directly by the people who use it. There's really no city, town, country or state, on the hook for the cost of repair & maintenance.[/QUOTE

Was a evaluation done by a qualified , independent, civil engineer as to the reason for the failure? The developer being the 800lb gorilla in the room, politically, economically the idea of improvement in code requirements and inspections are not very likely, once sold its your problem, you own it , 50 behind my house is a solid 6" fence, wind damage blew down several sections , it in a "special easement" zone Iam responsible for the fence, the amount of concrete in the footing was a joke, you would not install a fence like that anywhere much less here with soil and wind condition, special easement zone, my problem, tried to find the specs for the original install , was stone walled

If he really wants answers, help, responses................provide the reports, they posters can address what his is talking about.

:sigh:

To answer all the people predisposed to criticize and can't take the time to actually read the original post.

By reports I mean the news articles that are published almost every week. I have no need to go back and repost those as "proof". I also ASKED if this level of failure is normal. Note that I asked if there were any civil engineers on the forum. I am looking for an informed opinion.

Not almost weekly (I checked) but there is a pretty good monthly streak going.

So, OP - I worked for the Engineering department of the municipality I lived in up north. I'm not an engineer, but I was responsible for understanding terminology, signing off on building permits, checking fema maps, scheduling site inspections, checking photographs and CAD drawings and property renderings. I also worked for an architect for a year, and had to read the spec book and extract appropriate paragraphs from it to write specs for each project.

First and foremost, Florida is basically a huge mound of sand sitting on limestone. It is not a stable chunk of land. Think of it as an island that just hasn't yet broken off the mainland, but probably will some time within the next 10,000 years.

This is why rare and few homes have basements here. They'd collapse, because there's nothing solid surrounding them or beneath them. You're more likely to hit water before you get deep enough to pour a cement foundation in a basement in most of Florida.

The developers know this. The companies that lay sewer and irrigation pipe know this. The town and county engineers know this, and the architects know this. But they make GOOD money building. They are ALL making bank. The only people who lose out, are the homeowners. And who cares about them right? They already bought the property, they're locked into the responsibility.

Up north, we have EXTREMES of weather. Sub-zero temps and post-100 heat waves, brush fires and mirage-creating humidity. Flooding and multi-foot blizzards and ice and ice-melts. The ground is tortured seasonally up there. And yet - the pipes manage just fine for decades. The house I lived in growing up was on a street that flooded once. It was a weather issue - non-stop torrential rain for several days. People were paddling canoes down the street mostly for fun, since the schools were closed that week due to extreme weather. And yet - for over 50 years, the pipes didn't have to be replaced or repaired once.

Down here, if a gator sneezes three times in a row, somewhere in The Villages, a pipe will fail. Florida isn't THAT new of a state. It's been around for over 150 years. It's had a few minutes to figure stuff out. It has chosen not to.

First Google "Sinkhole map of Florida". You will see where they concentrate and they are much more prevalent near Tampa. I think it has much to do about the strata of shale and sand underneath this part of Florida. But people from time to time seem to think that the developer has failed somehow.

So to follow up. I realize that FL is basically sand and therefore the building practices must adapt. Do other communities in central FL have the same problem with failure rates?

Not sure if they had problems with pipes or not but - Water Oak down 441 was still flooded in parts as of last week, following Milton. They have a man-made lack in the middle of their community and that water was in peoples' houses, covering lanais and patios, and blocking the road for WELL over a week after the storm.

It looked to me like they simply didn't have any plans for flood drainage when it was built. Most of the community is sitting in a geographical depression with a body of water in the middle of it. There was no "downhill" where the water could go, so it just started climbing up.

Also a matter of bad planning, substandard regulations OR neglect in enforcing regulations (I don't know which it was).

The challenge for this areas is there is no outflow so the storm water management system has to be designed to retain a 100+ year rain event.

This is why they flood golf courses and run sprinklers fire weeks to evaporate three accumulated rainfall.

From the horses mouth:

https://www.districtgov.org/wp-conte...astructure.pdf

The District has received several inquiries over the last several days regarding depressions, sinkholes, and stormwater pipes.

Unfortunately, there is a huge amount of misunderstanding
regarding the causative factors, further intensified by the misinformation on social media.

As this misinformation continues to spread and cause much angst among residents, we would like to take a moment to review the facts. To those residents that have reached out with your questions and concerns…thank you!!

FALSE:
There seems to be a misperception that inferior construction materials were used or substandard workmanship took place during road, infrastructure, and facility projects, which are then turned over to the District and become “the residents' problem” to fix.

TRUE:
The Villages is built to a high construction standard. Everything is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. All of the work is built to industry standards, local building
codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

FALSE:
There are massive failures of infrastructure, either caused by or causing depressions and
sinkholes.

TRUE:
Given the sheer massive size, density, and complicated infrastructure within The Villages, along with the topography of Central Florida, it is not uncommon to have naturally forming depressions, and on rare occasions, pipe or other infrastructure failures.

The majority of our infrastructure is in excellent condition.

Stormwater pipe failures can lead to a depression, and while these do occasionally occur, the majority of depressions are naturally occurring. One of the primary indicators of a stormwater pipe failure is evidence of a depression in the ground immediately above a stormwater pipe.

There are several reasons for stormwater pipe failures including age, corrosion, blocked/clogged pipes, separated joints, or connections.

FALSE:
Sinkholes are occurring all over The Villages.

TRUE:
We have had only one sinkhole over the past 16 months, which was the one near the Moyer Recreation Center. Depressions can and do appear anywhere, and we have been challenged with numerous depressions which have occurred in basins, parking lots, golf courses, and other areas. In every case of a sinkhole, depression, or pipe failure, we utilize Professional Engineers and Geotechnical Engineers to perform analysis including ground-penetrating radar, standard penetration testing, cone penetration tests, core samples, soil density tests, visual inspections, and diver services which formulate our repair efforts. Most depressions include the use of chemical grout which is injected into numerous injection points to fill and stabilize voids, loose soil, large cavities, etc. We also use clayey soil to backfill and compact into smaller
depressions. Depressions within basins are significantly more challenging and thus more expensive to repair and often include repair and/or replacement of the basin liner.

FALSE:
Infrastructure is turned over to the District with no warranty.

TRUE:
All infrastructure turned over to the District from the Developer comes with a one-year (1) warranty. This meets industry standards and is common practice in other cities/counties.

FALSE:
Stormwater pipes and other infrastructure was poorly constructed and now residents just have to pay when it fails.

TRUE:
Infrastructure throughout the community is designed, reviewed, and approved by licensed architects, professional engineers, structural engineers, mechanical engineers, and other professionals. It is built to industry standards, local building codes and is permitted, inspected, and accepted by independent County inspectors who must certify that construction meets industry standards and federal, state and local building codes.

District Property Management has a robust program to perform pipe inspections. Pipes are generally inspected every five years for Steel Pipes, and every 10 years for Concrete or PVC pipes. It should be noted that in our older areas of The Villages, our infrastructure is greater than 35 years old and by the sheer age is more prone to failure. Divers are routinely used for wet pipes and pipes with stormwater connective boxes. Stormwater pipe inspections are a proven Best Management Practice (BMP) that can be used proactively to identify potential pipe failures (corrosion, collapse, separation, etc.). By following the adopted BMPs, repairs can be made or other necessary actions can take place to prevent the failure of control measures. Stormwater pipe inspections have led to repair actions, which have prevented the total failure of sections of the stormwater system and avoided hundreds of thousands of potential damages and repair costs.

In The Villages, less than 0.10% (or 1/10th of a percent) of stormwater pipes have actually had a failure.

FALSE:
Nothing is happening after hearing repairs need to be made to certain pipes. Recently, contractor availability has significantly impacted the District’s ability to perform and complete Pipe Inspections (and repairs) throughout The Villages. As a result, the Pipe Inspection program has been challenging to keep on schedule and perform required
repairs. Likewise, the cost for these services has greatly increased over the past two years which limits the number of inspections that can be reasonably completed within current budgetary constraints. Just this month, Village Center Community Development District

TRUE:
With the Deep Trekker, DPM can quickly perform pipe inspections as needed and on the spot without expending District funds on contracted
services and save an estimated $175,000 annually. While DPM will continue to utilize contractors for large-scale pipe inspection projects, the Deep Trekker will prove most critical when we have suspected pipe or stormwater-related failures.

FALSE:
authorized the funding to procure a Deep Trekker Remotely Operated Vehicle (ROV) system for DPM to conduct stormwater pipe inspections. We are just placing a Band-Aid on areas that need repair or replacement.

TRUE:
In most cases, stormwater pipes can be repaired through Cured In Place Pipe, which is a trenchless rehabilitation method used to repair existing pipelines. It is a jointless, seamless lining that can be inserted from the inlet to the outlet, thus there is little to no damage to landscaping and other areas. CIPP is considered to be a 50-year repair and it has proven to be a highly effective solution. In some cases, we must replace a pipe that has failed due to age, corrosion, or other factors. Pipe replacement projects are the last resort. Lastly, we work
closely with our City and County partners to cost-share repairs which cross County roads or Right of Ways.

When you read something or hear a rumor while enjoying this wonderful lifestyle, please take a moment to “fact check” before you become concerned or pass along misinformation. In a community this large, misinformation can be one of our biggest challenges. For additional information or clarification, please visit Welcome to The Villages Community Development Districts or contact District Property Management

I have to say, that was pretty solid answer and there's not much there that I would disagree with.

When I responded earlier, that I don't think the quality of work performed is the same as in a major metro area, I should have conditioned that, with my frame of reference, which is the Northeast. The Northeast deals with an entirely different set of circumstances and weather conditions than here in Florida, so it would only stand to reason, their constructions standards would be significantly different.

It was encouraging to hear that the District knows they've had trouble keeping up with maintenance and inspections. Inspections and maintenance are a critical component to keeping a drainage systems as sophisticated as TV's, operating as designed.

"News articles"???..............R U relying on the online "news" site??

First, it's not a news site. Run by someone who (I heard) was fired by TV and "only" posts negative items about TV, the family and all related contractors.
Second, most people who have lived here two years or more know the "First" and take everything with a grain of salt.
Third, I doubt any place in TN has a website with such a disdain for a developer and posts every negative thing possible.

:crap2:

Your endorsement is duly noted…………

GREAT POST.

Hopefully, the pot stirrer's posts will be discounted and forgotten.

BOOM.

St Catherine
 

St Catherine is going through a huge revamping of its sewage lines right now. Our village is not quite 5 years old! The infrastructure is junk. We have roads torn up, blacktop patches in several spots, cones and fences here all around and you can’t even get to Sawgrass without hitting detours.

Ashland Pond.

Yes
 

I would have hated to have bought there. What a mess. These people thought they had a view, instead a wasteland was their reward. I feel sorry for those who have respiratory problems.

https://www.**************.com/2024/...-the-villages/

False. While there are instances of drainage issues, pond problems, and foundation failures in The Villages, FL, stating that these fail "quite often" might be an overgeneralization. The information available does not conclusively support that these issues are frequent or widespread enough to be considered "quite often":

Drainage and Ponds: There have been documented cases where ponds fail to manage stormwater runoff effectively, leading to flooding, particularly when maintenance is neglected. For instance, an article from L.E.W. Inc Blog discusses how clogged retention pond drains can lead to flooding, but this is presented as a potential issue rather than a regular occurrence.

Home Foundations: There is no direct evidence from the provided search results specifically stating that home foundations in The Villages fail frequently. However, general issues with land subsidence, drainage, and pond maintenance could theoretically contribute to foundation problems if not managed properly.

Given the lack of definitive, comprehensive data from the search results to support the claim that these failures happen "quite often," it's more accurate to say that while these issues do occur, they are not necessarily common or frequent across the entire area.

This conclusion is drawn based on the information from the web results, which do not provide enough evidence to support the statement as broadly stated. Source: GrokAI

https://www.**************.com/2024/...-the-villages/

Have you seen how these houses are built? After footers are dug, there is no compaction of the soil/sand or any gravel and rebar put down prior to pouring of concrete. The same with the driveways and sidewalks. I saw several homes being built in my previous neighborhood and was shocked to see that being done.

What sidewalks are you talking about? There are a very limited number of roads where there are any sidewalks at all in the Villages. Odell Circle has sidewalks. I have to think hard about any other residential neighborhood that has them.

Hillsborough Trail, Pinellas Place, Canal Street, and Bonita Blvd are a few streets that have sidewalks and are comparable to Odell Circle.

I don't recall seeing any problems with sidewalks or driveways or reading about any problems here but I suppose I haven't been paying too much attention to that.

Poor infrastructure. The developer does a poor job and then the residents have to pay for repairs. I lived in New Jersey, Ocala and LA and never saw anything like it is here.

"When you read something or hear a rumor while enjoying this wonderful lifestyle, please take a moment to “fact check” before you become concerned or pass along misinformation. In a community this large, misinformation can be one of our biggest challenges. "

Bingo! As Sir Winston Churchill once noted: "a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on".

There are people who seem to live for that kind of thing.

water
 

yea the water isn't too far away from you, beside and under

So, post #21 is full of lies?

Post #21 was informative and had some good points. I did have to laugh at the "1 year warranty" given to us residents. I am not an expert but 1 year seems like a very short time when talking about underground utilities. My electric razor has a better warranty.

Since those pipes are the first thing done, they can be 3-5 years old before acceptance by the Districts and the warranty clock starts.

From a local/micro view it can seem the issues are excessive.

But if you drive around the Eastport area to see infrastructure work in progress, it's mind boggling.

There's a great view of the massive amount of with from the top of the Bexeley bridge.

I'm in awe how they manage it all simultaneously and how the thousands of workers building all this do as good as they do considering the scale.

A little bit of "fact" on sink holes and why it happens and the states where it happens frequently.

Which areas are most at risk for sinkholes? | American Geosciences Institute

Note this paragraph "The most damage from sinkholes tends to occur in Florida, Texas, Alabama, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Pennsylvania." Notice that Pennsylvania is the only northern state in this list.

I lived in Tennessee for 34 years, sink holes happened frequently. I lived in a subdivision outside the city limits in the county where there was a farm behind my property. Lived there for 20+ years and a sink hole opened up right on the edge of my yard in the farm owner's field. There were a few that appeared on streets in the downtown area where a street water drainage or potable water pipe broke. Because it didn't happen back home in a state not on the list, doesn't mean that faulty infrastructure in Florida is the reason it happens there.