Replacing your home's HVAC System?
 

It's the time of year where many are considering replacing their HVAC systems here in the Villages. Whether you have a furnace or heat pump system, when getting estimates for a new system, make sure you have a sizing calculation for your home done. There have been many cases of undersized systems installed when homes here in the Villages were originally built so just replacing the old system with the same sized new system may not be correct. Also, you may have made some changes which could also effect the size system you need.

When comparing estimates, make sure your get the details on what's going to be changed so you can compare apples to apples. Just because company #1 comes in cheaper than company #2 doesn't always mean company #1's installation is the same eventhough the equipment may be. There is always a reason why one company's estimate is significantly different than another. Also, you can't compare what you paid up North for a system since it might have only been the change out of the A/C part of the system where here in the Villages we have mostly heat pumps and furnaces (mostly in the older sections).

Most of the reputable HVAC companies here in the Villages should come in close to each other when replacing with the same equipment and with the same install. It's also not important to have the company who originally installed your system replace it since the homes should have all been installed to code and should all be very similar.

If you get a "low ball" price, look to see what's being re-used for the installation, are they are undersizing the unit? are they pulling the permit that you have to have with an installation like this? are you getting a larger air filter cabinet? Are they providing a surge protector and or over and under voltage protection at the condenser disconnect? Are you getting the base efficiency model vs a more efficient unit? are they trying to sell you an "off" 2nd tier brand vs something like Carrier or Trane which is used all over the Villages so parts and knowledgable techs are always available?

These days you have a choice of a basic single speed system like what was installed with the home was built, a 2-stage system and a variable speed inverter system that uses the same technology as in the mini-splits everyone is installing these days. Check to see which units qualify for the Federal Tax credits that are expiring this year and or credits from your utility company. The tax credits and instant rebates may make more desirable and more expensive units cost closer to the basic systems. Better systems will have a cheaper 10 year labor warranty that you can purchase because they have a better history of being more reliable. And for new systems even the most basic ones these days that have a 10 year parts warranty, you probably want to seriously consider a labor warranty as well if it's reasonably priced. Then you don't have to worry about anything.

Remember, although our electric rates are fairly cheap here in the Villages, they might not stay that way in the long run so you might want to pay a little more now for a more efficient unit to save on energy in the long run. Also, remember the installation is the most important part of the job and will determine the longevity of your system so, choose wisely when selecting a HVAC company to do your replacement.

Great suggestions jrref

Do not pick the smallest unit such that there is little reserve capacity when there are multiple weeks of very hot weather. Spend the extra money for a size larger than the minimum for your square footage, with the dehumidifying capacity as well.

For FL, minimum would be a 3 ton unit for 2,000 sq ft, 3.5 ton is better and up to 4 ton unit for slightly larger houses.

This is one of the items which skimping on size/price is probably not the area you want to be cheap

YMMV

Thank you for the information.

I always overpower, like a big V8 in my car.

Well, you don't want to oversize either. For heat pump systems which we have here in the Villages it's not "rocket science" unless you have some special situation. Most systems come in 2, 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2, 4 and 5 ton. Your house should fit into one of these sizes. The reason for my post is recently myself and two of my neighbors replaced our systems and the ones that Munns installed, for some reason, were undersized when they were installed when the home was built. I'm not saying it was Munns fault since I have no idea who sized the units but it put up a red flag to make sure you re-analyse which size you need when replacing and not just go with what was originally installed. I also wanted to point out there are more equipment options available these days that you might want to consider if you plan on staying in your current home for a while since energy costs are not predictible and will probably increase over time like everything else. When I read discussions on Next Door and other local blogs, all you see are Villagers purchasing the cheapest HVAC system they can get their hands on without any regard to actually what they are purchasing and just "trusting" the contractor. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you are aware of what you are doing. Most HVAC companies, large and small are trying to be reputable but they also know many here are price driven so they will offer you "basic" models and hope the price will entice you to go with them. The truth is, the many HVAC companies serving the Villages all have their favorite systems to sell which in part are the ones they can make the most money on and also provide a "good" system to the customer. But be aware, some of the larger companies like Sunshine and Sun-Kool for example, because of the volume they sell will get better pricing from Carrier for example and may be cheaper to use when replacing your system. Just something to be aware of as well.

Just remember, if you get a price from any company that's significantly cheaper than the rest, there is always a reason that you should to look into. And if you are fine with what they are offering and understand what you are buying compared to the rest, then that's fine.

When choosing the size of a new AC/Heat Pump do you go by tons or seer?

Tons. The SEER has nothing to do with cooling power, only efficiency. A 3-ton AC unit will deliver 3 tons of cooling regardless of the SEER. But if you have a high SEER, you will use less electricity.

My number one suggestion is to ensure that the evaporator(inside) coil is has a corrosion resistant coat applied to reduce the risk of leaks(disimilar metals). If you look at your present coil it probably looks like this. It will be well worth the money.
AC Evaporator Coil Leaks: Causes, Fixes & Prevention

Also, you will significantly extend the life of your compressor if you get the option with a soft start or variable speed. It will also mitigate that annoying clunk sound everytime it starts up.

Good info.

Don't forget to ask about the refrigerant is in new system. Federal rules have changed. An old refrigerant system will cost more to repair (if possible) in the future. Then again, being OP it most likely be new owners problem.

410A will be available many years to come. There are also replacment refrigerants for 410A. But at the beginning of this year all production of 410A HVAC components have been prohibited by law.

Master Tradesman’s recommendation: If your system is already nearing the end of its life, consider replacing it now. R-410A will remain in production and circulation for several years, so you’ve got quite some time before you’ll have to worry about being unable to find a compatible refrigerant.(may not be available now)
R-410A Phase Out in 2025: What Homeowners Need to Know for AC Replacement

I guess this is why Carrier says do not pour Vinegar down your condensate drain.
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Corrosion is one of the leading causes of AC cooling coil leaks. The coil’s material, usually copper or aluminum, can react with chemicals in the air. These reactions, especially involving formic acid or acetic acid, eat away at the metal, creating small pinholes over time. Common sources of these chemicals include household cleaning agents, adhesives, and paints.
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The new R454B refrigerant is no big deal. Yes, it's slightly flamable and yes there was a shortage of tanks for a while but when they installed my new system, I didn't see any difference in the install and handling of the refrigerant from 410A. The only thing you will see is in the new units, there is a refrigerant sensor in the evaporator area that will shut down the system if it detects a leak. With all other refrigerants, if you had a small leak and you were going to replace your system or change the coil, they would charge up the system so you had A/C until they came back. HVAC companies won't be able to do this anymore since if they charged the system, the leak sensor would just shut it down.

I asked Chat GPT. After filling in a lot of information it told me I needed a 3.5 ton unit. Start by asking " How do I size a heat pump unit" at the end of each answer Chat GPT asks if you want to go further just say "yes". I got recommendations for 4 Carrier units and 3 Mitsubishi units with pricing. (Hint: Model # of present unit helpful)
Also sq. ft. is on this site Attention Required! | Cloudflare

You make a good point. But if the repair is far less expensive than replacing the entire system then it might be a preferred option. If the 410A componenty is no longer available, then there will only be one choice.

I would just add that the Federal Government requires HVAC companies to account for and to recycle refrigerants that they remove from old HVAC systems that they remove from service. They cannot dispose of these refrigerants. That is why there are usually older refrigerants available for use for HVAC repairs.

Right, I agree. The only reason why me and some of my neighbors replaced our systems now is because they are at a age where anything can start failing and for some of our neighbors it already has. The 25C Federal tax credits will most likely not be extended beyond 2025 and for a new Carrier Infinity Greenspeed system for example, you get a $2,000 credit, not deduction, but Credit. Also, Carrier and some HVAC companies are offering instant rebates so, right now you can get a $16-$17K system for $12-$13K net with 10 years of parts AND Labor. This same system, even if the cost remains the same will cost $2,000 more next year because of the loss of the Federal credits. If you figure a basic single stage unit will cost anywhere fr0m $8-$9K, maybe $10K if you have a furnace then you may want to consider the "better" system since you will be able to make-up the couple thousand dollars in energy savings.

So far, my new system is exceptional in keeping the temperature and humidity constant and from what I can tell, it's consuming about half the electric that my old circa 2016 system was consuming. I'm not saying everyone should do what I did but just be aware of the current situation and plan appropriately.

Interesting you brought that up. I asked Sunshine what they were going to do with my old working unit and they said it goes to a company where they recycle it. I'm guessing they remover the old refrigerant and "process" it somehow and recycle all the metal, etc.... You just can't remove the old refrigerant and re-use it becasue you don't know if its contaminated so there must be some recycling process they use.

I believe that if you can afford a variable speed compressor you will have significantly lower electric rates and the life of the compressor will be much longer not to mention it is great for humidity control.

The third – and most crucial law for energy savings – reveals that the power consumed by these components is related to the cube of their speed. So, a small reduction in speed can lead to a significant drop in power usage and, consequently, energy costs.
What is the Affinity Law – and what does it have to do with your HVAC system?
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Wow, thanks, that's a great article supporting these newer Variable speed inverter systems. It's unfortunate many have no idea about the technology and why it's important to understand when making a decision on what replacement system to invest in. It "pains me" when I read about all the Villagers who just jump at the cheapest system they can get their hands on and feel they got a "good deal" and made the "right choice" because of the cost without any regards or understanding on what they purchased and will be living with for the next 10-15 years.

So, it's final, the "One Big Beautiful Bill Act" (OBBBA), which includes provisions to eliminate the 25C Energy Efficient Home Improvement Credit at the end of 2025 has passed by congress. This means 2025 may be the last year to claim the 25C credit for eligible upgrades. If you are planning to replace your HVAC system you might want to take a serious look now.

If the techs had worked in naval propulsion it would be very familiar to them. It not clear at first but the compressor running 100% half of the time would consume approximately 4x more power than the compressor running 50% all of the time under the same conditions.

Good catch on the tax credit. If I looked it up correctly, the max savings for heat pumps is $2000.

That's correct. On qualifying heat pump systems you can get up to $2,000 credit. That's a lot of money to pass up.

I just want to chime in a little. I am a licensed, certified, insured and bonded home inspector and I have inspected north of 500 homes here in TV.

In the past, I did a lot of industrial work, including, but not limited to installing boilers and HVAC equipment both commercially and residentially.

There is a method to calculate your home's HVAC requirement, emphasis on the AC, and it's called a Manual J. It is a long, sorta complicated method but it'll come out accurate.

You don't have to do this though as it's already been done for the home you live in. Unless you have altered your structure, the size of the heat pump or AC you have(if you have a furnace as well), is what you should stick with.

I have inspected two homes this year where the home owner was from up north, and wanted the house to be 71 during the day and 66 at night. While not such a problem in January, when they come down in July, it's not going to happen with the original condenser.

In both cases, they got larger units.(i.e. 1 ton larger and 1.5 in the other) In both cases, the units short cycle most of the year(both inspections were in the spring) and the humidity in the home was never controlled properly. The system wouldn't run long enough to get the humidity out before set temp was hit.

The other issue about running 71 degrees while it's 93 with an 80% relative humidity is that every leaky spot in your house will be found after a while as the paint flecks off and the wood trim around the windows and doors starts to rot from all the condensate. Yes, when you sell, your home inspector will find it.

You can typically upsize half a ton without too much drama, but if your current size does not struggle in July, that's the size you should keep.

One final thought. Of all the homes that are 15+ years old and still have the same system? The brand is pretty much always Trane. I have seen one 21 year old Carrier system and probably 25 Tranes that are 20+. My neighbor has a 26YO Trane.

Had ours changed in January 3.5 ton Carrier. 9254$. Plus 10 year parts and labor don’t know if that was good or bad? But I figured I’d stay with the original installer

Thanks for all the good information. From what you are saying, further supports getting, if you can afford it, one of the variable speed inverter systems since it will adjust and only use the amount of cooling "power" it needs all the time. Also, you are correct, a manual J should have been done on every home when it was built but nevertheless, we still found systems 1/2 ton to 1 ton undersized. One was a 2600 sqft Begonia model with a 3 ton heat pump system. Nothing special just undersized with smaller ductwork. The homeowner just thought the system was supposed to run a long time and never cool to his desired set temperature during very hot weather.

Here in the Villages, Trane and Carrier are mostly installed so the local HVAC companies have the most parts, trained techs and manufacturer support with these brands. Both companies are excellent but I think once your system gets to about 15+ years, it's probably time to start doing some research on a new unit when you are ready since although your system may run to 20+ years, here in Florida where we run our systems all year long if we have a heat pump, your system probably isn't running as efficient as it could and there may be more efficient systems that will save you money. You just need to investigate. For example, I had a neighbor who ran his 13 SEER and 75% efficient furnace until it stopped for 25 years when maybe he should have replaced it sooner with a 15 or 16 SEER 95% unit and saved money in the long run. This was in NY. The question whether to replace or repair is an on-going debate but at the end of the day it's going to depend on eveyone's specific situation.

It depends on what you purchased?

Heat pump or Furnace?
Seer Rating
A/C unit size, how many tons?
Single or 2 stage or variable speed system?
Who was the company? Was it a transferrable labor warranty or from the local company? One thing you have to remember, if the labor warranty is from the local company you need to consider if that company will be in business for the next 5-10 years. I'm sure most will be but you need to consider that.

Yes, definitely an inverter heat pump will save energy and have enough juice to get you through peak July. You pay a premium for those but ultimately they are a much higher seer rating, so it'll pay off after some period.

A 3 ton unit in a 2600sq home is definitely wrong. Someone was trying to pocket a few dollars.

I know my 2.5 ton struggles in my home but we added 12 feet across the back of the entire home. Half of that width is an enclosed lanai(now 24x15), but even with that door closed, the AC still can't keep up during the hottest days.

We ended up putting in a 1.5 ton mini in the Lanai and now we just let that run and the extra cold it makes spills into the house and the main system cycles normally.

One final note, I installed a heat pump water heater in my garage. It helps bring the heat level in the garage from parking oven to just warm ;). It also costs about $1 a month to run. lol. The old water heater was adding heat to the garage and cost about $13. It'll take a couple years to break even on that one, but after that it's essentially free.

What was the cost of the heat pump water heater? I have a 21 year old hot water gas heater in the garage.

There were having a sale about 4 months ago and the 40 gallon was $1370. I had probably $30 in fittings and pipe. I tied the condensate line into the existing condensate drain.

I've helped my plumber helper install a handful of these for other people since then and there's additional cost if you have your water heater in a closet because you have to add some ducting for the exhaust and open a supply hole in the upper wall of the utility closet. Here's one he did recently.

The white circle at the top of the wall is where the cold air comes out.

**Rheem makes a 120v version for gas conversion, so if you don't have 240v, you don't need to run new service**

If your last paragraph is trying to conclude that Trane is a better unit than Carrier, I would disagree. In the past (I think 15 to 20 years ago?) the developer installed only Trane, and then they switched to Carrier. This would account for there being more old Trane units than Carrier units. Also, the units being produced today have very little to do with the quality of today's products.

There is zero doubt in my mind that the older Trane units were better. I get into a lot of homes and I see 12-14 year old homes with replacement Carriers already. Lots of the homes just north of 44 are already on their 2nd sets of units and most of those were built about 2011/12.

I have seen one carrier unit over 20 years old. It is on a 2004 build outside of Sumter. Most of everything up closer to 466 and north is already on the 2nd or 3rd. Many of the originals were Carrier. Yes, they did install Tranes, but even when they switched over to installing Carriers, the Tranes are still working, few of the Carriers are.

I realize the gas(410a) and manufacturing standards have changed, but I'm of the opinion that if you have an older Trane, run it until it stops or insurance makes you change it. Expect your Carrier unit to be dead by 15 and anything over that is bonus.

Trane is definetly more expensive than Carrier. How much? Depends on what you are buying. Is it worth the extra cost? Thats up to you. Typically, Villagers go for the cheapest unit they can get so maybe that's why we don't see a lot of Trane. Also, many don't even understand what they are buying. All they know is some company offered them a system cheaper than the rest so it has to be the best and they get it. Historically, after 15 years, technology has changed and units are more efficient so at that point you are probably better off and will save money in the long run replacing your system under your own power vs holding on to it for another 10 years and repairing it until it dies on the hottest day of the year.

Right you will pay a premium but for the rest of 2025 there are Federal tax credits and others from Carrier that will bring that premium very close to a basic system. After this year, these credits will be gone.

21 year old Trane

Ok, so let's have any old Carriers chime in. Bueller, Bueller?

13.5 years so far w/Carrier.

Most Carriers will make it to 15. Few Carriers will make it to 18. I think it's the label ;). When I get to the home and the Sun has bleached off the label, I just advise the buyer to budget for a new systems sooner rather than later. The label goes, the system is a goner :crap2:

The other thing is that some of the Insurance companies are requiring everything, Roof/AC/WH to be under 15 years old. I tell people that I know of two insurers they should get quotes from first before you change out working equipment. I don't get anything from those companies other than the satisfaction that we aren't disposing of equipment that is working properly.

I would tend to agree based on what I've seen and heard. This is why even if your system is only 10 years old and you have the budget, it may be prudent to change your system out this year for one of the variable speed inverter systems like the Carrier Infinity Greenspeed that qualifies for the $2,000 Federal Tax Credits vs waiting a couple of years and paying significantly more for the same system or have to go with a basic single stage system because the variable speed systems will be too far out of reach by then.

For what it's worth, we installed some solar tubes that qualified for a small tax credit. When I inserted it into the tax forms, I didn't get the credit because our tax liability was too low. We had a lot of deductions(First full year of my business) and credits for that year and paid very little in tax, so the credit went kaput. It was supposed to carry over to 24, but I never bothered to check.

I'm just saying that if you don't pay much in taxes, a tax credit isn't very useful.

That is true but many are not in your situation which is why you need to look at your specific situation and see if it makes sense.

Either way, just wanted to let everyone know who do pay taxes, that the 25C Federal Tax credits are not being renewed and will go away at the end of 2025. Even if the high efficiency system you were looking at costs the same amount in 2026, it will cost $2,000 more without the tax credits.