Breaker/wiring problem
 

Got this unusual problem with one of my circuits. The breaker trips eradicate. I’ve replaced one socket looked kind burnt but not real bad. This problem keeps coming up.

When I test circuit with tester the red light lights faintly. I check voltage with multi meter. I guess going have inspect all outlets on circuit. See it I see anything before I replace breaker?

The tester lights up red faintly at one shown in picture, all rest of circuit outlets test good with only yellow light lite. I have replace that outlet but it connectored with another line I don’t know where those wires go so far?

Ground and neutral should be tied together somewhere upstream. Seeing 5.3vac says the neutral wire is disconnected somewhere before being reaching this outlet. Likely that voltage is more like a static reading because the meter has a very high input impedance. If you put a 3-way outlet adapter in, with the tester and then your meter, I bet the voltages goes close to zero. Or to 117vac, depending on how that tester is set up. (or use a load without a ground lead)
Next step is to look at other outlets located between this one and the breaker. Check the white wires for a bad wirenut, open junction, loose white wire, etc.
Do not tie the white to the ground.
Looks like that outlet is in concrete block. Garage maybe? There could be an outlet on that circuit in the attic too.
Is the breaker tripping a GFCI ?? Power flowing from outlet hot to a device and returning via ground will trip a GFCI.

There is a typo in your post somewhere which is obscuring meaning. Maybe the word "eradicate" is in error? Maybe should be erratically? Not sure.

It does not seem likely that the breaker is the problem. Seems more like an intermittent short, particularly if the outlet is burnt. The short is probably right in that outlet box. Are the wires overly crowded in there? If so, maybe replace the box with a bigger one and rewire the outlet. Or maybe just rewire in the existing box but being careful to make sure nothing is jammed together or potentially exposed wire touching.

my guess is a gfi , outside.it rains it pops the gfi.

Thanks for suggestions. I did some digging around in outlet shown. There a grounding screw in box that was loose? The ground came into box from the main breaker fastened to grounding screw then out to grounding screw on outlet?

I didn’t think loose screw on box would make difference beings it was connected to outlet grounding plate? But, after I tighten up the screw and of course moved wires around getting outlet back in box. The tester lite up all yellow. So, I guess it fixed for now? We see if breaker trips later?

Yes you are correct typo (ai added probably due to my misspelling and I didn’t catch it) erratically was word I was after.

I had go somewhere and haven’t check see it 5Vs still there. The dim red light out now. I’ll Check see if I still have ghost voltage in outlet?

Ok, got back on outlet. No stray voltage now. Evidently that ground came from main breaker panel? I wouldn’t thought trighten the screw attached to box would fixed the problem.

Ok I think I figured it out. When pushing the outlet back in Box the grounding wire was probably touching the common side of the outlet. When I would plug something in drawing current from outlet I guessing with ground touching outlet at common connection it would trip breaker. I tighten up grounding screw in box and when putting outlet back in it wasn’t touching. I know this cause when I took it apart again for photo the problem was back with red dimly lite. I bent ground wire back so it wasn’t close and problem fixed again.

The photo show grounding wire by red arrow. The left arrow show where the ground wire was making contact with common side when I pushed back in box, the center top arrow show where ground wire comes in from breaker box. The red arrow on right shows box grounding screw I found that was very loose.

Your voltmeter was showing 5 v ac reading on the neutral to ground terminals which suggests you have a loose neutral wire or bad outlet somewhere between your outlet and the breaker box. This in itself could be a fire hazard. I would trace back all the outlets from the outlet you measured from and check that all the wiring is tightly connected to the daisy chained outlets all the way back to the breaker box, including the neutral connection for that circuit in the breaker box. (You need to shut off thar breaker to do this). If all the wires are tightly connected to the outlets and you still have the 5v ac reading on the neutral to ground in your outlet shown, then I believe you have a bad outlet somewhere in the daisey chain of outlets back to the breaker box. I would replace ALL of the outlets in the daisey chain. BETTER SAFE THEN SORRY!

Did you not read his last few posts? He found the problem and it is fixed.

Having a screw loose can get you every time!

Since my last post I had to also replace the outlet, the problem came back tripping breaker. So far good. I when through every breaker amps (15 and 20 amps circuits) found six 15 amp outlets on 20 amp breaker. I’m assume if got 20 amp circuit you have to have 20amp rated outlets? These are original outlets installed when house was built in 2002. Most of wrong amp outlets are on outsside GFI outlets and two in kitchen. Hopefully I hit bottom of this rats nest? :undecided:

If your breaker is an Eaton 20A AFCI/GFC1, (BRP120DF, for example) you can determine the cause of the trip from the number of LED flashes on the breaker. They have a video for doing that. Or see, this There is also a lawsuit against them for two series of those breakers. I have replaced 3 this year that started tripping intermittently, including one that had nothing plugged into any of the sockets. Eaton will replace the breaker free of charge (BRP120A1CS BR PON, the older one is discontinued. 3-5 days shipping). The replacement breaker is about $68.00 at Lowes.

As to labeling the circuit number on the plate, you can label it on the inside of the plate. Looks less cheezy and you only have to take out one screw to see it.

HTH.

This is good to know Fred. I've had trouble with the Eaton GFCI breakers too. Thanks.

I went through all outlets and switches why see breaker circuit number on covers.


I have couple something at bottom with lights, one bright green and other dimly lite green? Top picture with garage light on and bottom picture with garage light off. Or just color difference between two? None rest breaker have lights. Circuit 22 outlet was problem child which comes out of main breaker panel. I replaced outlet seems to fix my intermittent problem so far? No stray voltage readings either.

I am GUESSING you have some form of surge arrestor, with the green lights indicating the protection is working. The reason I am guessing is most of the surge protection systems I have seen actually have a circuit breaker supplying the device, so i am not sure exactly what this device is.
You could try contacting the manufacturer of the circuit breaker panel and asking them what this device is.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post - I believe that the intermittent problem was more severe when the garage gets hot - breaker panel location. The most recent failure was two breakers, garage outlets, which only had water softener on, but would fail even when not plugged in, and the refrigerator! Both Eaton and Pike's Electric both said that temperature would NOT cause this. This experiment suggests otherwise.

I opened the garage doors for about an hour from 9PM to 10 PM and turned both breakers back on at the end. They did not trip at all overnight. I replaced them both in the morning. It is a sweaty job in a 95F+ garage.

BTW. In each of the three cases, the fault indication was 6 flashes pointing to the BREAKER SELF-TEST as the problem! That further makes me believe that temperature played a role in the failures.

Maybe this will help:
do arc fault breakers have an indicator light on them - Google Search

Shades of Green apparantly meaningless.
White=Tripped Green=Not tripped

No need to contact the manufacturer. It is indeed a surge protector. It is simply a breaker style panel surge. It is a type II panel surge protection device as opposed to a type 1 that Seco or Duke would put in the meter pan.

That said it is an Eaton CQH style surge protector and it is listed to be in a Square D panel(despite being built by Eaton) but it's the old style. Type II SPDs, of which that is one do have a finite life. The green lights indicate when it thinks it's no longer functioning, but I can tell you that it's old enough that it should probably be replaced. The new panel based surges clamp faster. Modern SPDs, particularly those with with thyristors or MOSFETs, can achieve faster clamping times than traditional MOV-based SPDs.

If one really wants to be protected properly, a breaker based Eaton Ultra sitting on a 50amp breaker would be the best. The breaker plug-in style surges are often quite limited in the amount of protection they offer. I think that particular one is 18ka. Here in central Florida, lightning capital of the USA, that's like a butterfly trying to stop a hurricane. Sure, it's doing something, but in the end it's nothing. The Eaton Ultra will have six times more surge current capacity.

Also, whenever I'm in a panel, I can always tell when a non-pro installed it, because they didn't shorten the leads. The leads to the SPD from the breaker should be as short as possible.

Hey Fred,
Timely post. I have an intermittent trip on an AFCI circuit running an Eaton BR PON type breaker. If I understand your post correctly, those are potential problem children and the newer BR with the dedicated neutral wire are the solution? Did/do you call or email Eaton to discuss replacement?
Thanks.

Ok, finely done. When through every breaker for correct amp outlets and wired correctly using multimeter ensure no stray voltages. Replaced all 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuit (i know I didn’t have to but outside outlets was really corroded), couple in kitchen so I replaced them also. The outside GFI outlets was really corroded due to originals to house over 22 years old. Tested all outlets to make wired correctly found two that was wired backwards. While I was add it I made diagram of breakers, what amps and what was on that circuit. I also numbered all outlets and switches with corresponding breaker so I know what on circuit. I also found two loose connections during process which could be problems down road that was avoided. Should be good to good for another 20 years?

Nicely done!

Went through that and then some for a house with aluminum wiring many years ago.

There are plenty of differences between cheap outlets and good ones. Hope you spent a few extra dollars on good ones since you spent your time to change them.

Cheap outlets require connecting wire directly under the screws. They may have a place to push the wire into a hole on the back, but it makes contact with just a springy metal bar, and they fail often (total failure or poor connection that becomes a fire risk when high current is drawn). Plugs are not held tightly and droop (or fall out) at the slightest tug of the wire.

Good outlets have a hole on the back where the wire is inserted. It's captured between 2 metal plates, and the side screws tightens the plates together. Makes a very solid connection and they never fail. Plugs retention is excellent.

The ones I got have metal plate sandwiching the wire between plates and screw not against wires. Outside I occasionally run 9 and 15 amp chain saws on long extension cord (only have two palms left) reason I didn’t like 15A sockets on outside outlets. I was surprised how badly they were corroded, even some of the copper wires was corroded, has to sand prone get good connections (i didn’t want to cut ends off due shorten wires making harder to connect).

I also didn’t like 15A outlets over kitchen counters due toaster, air fryer, others appliances used in those outlets. I’m satisfied with outlets and circuit 22 which lead me down rabbit hole. Looks like the outlet on 22 was problem all along. Wires were originally reversed, and then the loose ground plate screw in housing, and lastly the outlet. That outlet came directly out of main breaker box with no other on circuit. Only thing I didn’t do was open up main breaker, I am reluctant to do that unless I absolutely have to.

Thanks all for help and guidance, so far so good!

I always recommend either the Eaton Ultra or the PSP Vortex Type-2 surge protectors installed at the circuit breaker panel. The PSP uses a gas discharge tube to protect the MOVs and the MOVs are also thermally protected which will make the protector last longer. On the other hand, the Eaton Ultra uses only "standard" MOVs but it has such a high surge current capacity, 108KA that it will also last a very long time since most induced surges, from studies, are significantly less than that max. The circuit breaker type surge protectors have a much lower surge current capacity which is why they are not as good and fail more often but they are better than nothing. The Type-1 surge protector from the power utility mounted at the electrical meter is designed mainly to block and or manage surges coming from the power utility. The internal circuitry is slightly different than what's in the Eaton or PSP protectors and subsequently their warranty does not cover any device with an electronic circuit chip in it.

Former licensed electrician here.

There is no problem using "15A" receps on a 20A circuit, unless the circuit is dedicated to a device that requires it, like the charging port for your golf cart in your garage. The "rating" refers to the prongs, not the electrical capacity of the outlet. 20a receps are intended for a dedicated 20A single-outlet circuit, and have a "T"-shaped ground prong, although ordinary 15A plugs will also plug into it.

On the issue of a breaker intermittently popping, all of the solutions mentioned are typical. But I discovered one very atypical problem in my Courtyard Villa rental, shortly after I bought it, several years ago. The 3-way circuit in the dining room would occasionally pop the breaker. None of the usual solutions fixed it, so I began to suspect that the wire was damaged somehow. It ran through a narrow area in the attic that I couldn't get to, so I just pulled on it. There was a brief flash and the breaker popped. I disconnected the wire in the attic and then removed the box from the wall, so I could reach up with my pliers and remove the staples, to pull the wire out of the wall.

A couple of inches above the staple crease there was a black spot, and in the middle of that was staple. Not a staple like you use to install wiring. It was the thin wire staple they use at the factory to secure the end of a new roll of romex to the side of the wooden spool. You're supposed to cut it off when you start a new roll. But the idiot who wired that house didn't bother to do that, and instead had used a wire with a staple sticking out of it. It miraculously sorta worked, because the staple wasn't making contact all the time, at least until I jerked on it.

This house had gone 15 years with a wire that occasionally sparked when the heat and humidity expanded the wire enough to make contact with that staple, and nobody in that 15 years had bothered to fix it. Between the idiot electrician and the prior owner who wasn't worried about his house burning down, it was a level of stupidity impossible to comprehend. What's frightening to me is the number of houses in The Villages that electrician must have wired.

These kind of faults are ones the Ting is intended to detect. Some insurances companies provide them for free.

Ting - Electrical Fire Safety, Simplified - Smart+Proactive=Prevention

Agree, I’m not electrician just what I know from troubleshooting on dinosaur aircraft engines. I know just enough to not get myself in trouble. I too was surprised amount of errors made when house was built. Like nobody licensed looking over the apprentice. I think I finely got to top of my mole hill, but time will tell.

Did you wrench on round motors? We had a cool cutaway R4360 at school. Amazing engineering.

Nope, not that old. couple models B52s and F111s, slew 135s, RC,EC, KC, NKCs, E4s. Except for E4 (which at time in 80’s GE techs told what to replace except for routine maintenance) mostly troubleshooted with gauge checking pressures, and multi-meter for electrical, 28V was pretty start forward, Power side and ground.

I've seen a ton of different branded type-2s, but Eaton just has such a large presence, it's easy to just send someone a link and they get it the next day or they run out to HD/Lowes.

The easiest to install are those surges on Plug-on neutral panels. Take off the dead-front, remove the knock-outs, install, done. The problem is they have such a low surge capacity. I did a deep dive on it a while ago, and you can stack multiples of those without issue. I'm not sure two 22.5s = 45ka as electric is strange that way, but still, for ease of use, popping two of them in there is the easiest bang for the buck going.

As you say, there are several other Type-2 surge protectors on the market but I would stay away from most of them since I've seen some explode and or catch on fire in some cases when a very large induced surge occurred and exceeded their capacity but never with the Eaton or the PSP protectors.

Really???

When and where?

I saw a Ditek surge protector here in the Villages mounted inside a circuit breaker panel once where it must have exploded or caught on fire since it made a large part of the inside of the breaker panel black like from smoke. We investigated since the owner said the home either was hit by lightning or it hit very close. In either case, the home got a very large induced surge that overwhelmed the Ditek surge protector. It did save most everything in the home except a couple kitchen appliances.

Just so we’re clear: A Ditek whole home type wired to a breaker, or a plug in type (don’t know if Ditek makes those)?
Thanks

Ditek wired to a breaker mounted inside the circuit breaker panel.

In the attachments you can see where the surge protector burned up where all the black smoke residue is. The electrician then installed the a new surge protector of the same model back in the panel again.

I'm not saying Ditek is no good, just this is the only brand and type that I've seen this happen to. This particular protector is used at the disconnect at a lot of Mini-Split systems.

Wow! Thanks for the info. I have those Ditek devices on my HVAC units. I didn’t realize they had enough rated protection to be a whole home device. Ditek markets them as being “great for HVAC installations, pool pumps etc”.

If you have them on your HVAC equipment then that's good. Ditek makes several different models. But if you don't have a whole house surge protector at your circuit breaker panel then call Lenhart or Pikes electric. Pikes will install the Eaton Ultra and Lenhart will install the PSP protector. Both excellent. Lenhart can also install PSP surge protectors on your HVAC equipment and your cable line coming into the house.

Thank you,
I have the Eaton Ultra and the previous owner installed the Seco unit.