Bi-Partisan Bill To Legalize Marijuana
 

Finally, we have the Democrats and the Republicans getting together to introduce a bill to raise the nations conscienceness. Far out, man!

Seriously though, Republican Rep. Ron Paul and Democrat Rep. Barney Frank have introduced a bill to legalize marijuana and allow the states to legislate it's use. The bill would limit the feds involvement to smuggling, and eliminate laws against home grown weed to consume or sell.

I actually do not have a problem with this and think it's long overdue, but I don't believe this bill will advance very far. If it actually became law, I believe it would take the incentive out of the smuggling trade and put Mexican cartels out of business, in this activity anyway.

Better to legalize, decriminalize and regulate it use.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/lawmakers-i...225335489.html

This Bill has no Chance
 

The logic of legalizing marijuana is solid. It does not lead to 'hard' drugs, it is not as addictive as tobacco or booze and it provides help to many who need it. A more effective and safer way to calm people than pills.

So what's the problem? Legalizing pot and controlling its production and distribution threatens too many:

Politicians who risk losing the support by supporting unjustifiably strong laws and punishment to curry vote and contributions.
Police who will lose much of their arrest records.
Prison officials and guards who will see their population drop.
The Drug Enforcement Agency.
The criminals who control the marijuana production and distribution such as the Mexican Drug Cartels. They may be counted upon for large donations to politicians who sensationalize the issue.

The list goes on and on. Marijuana is the largest cash crop in many states. While I support Congressmen Paul and Frank and will write to my Congressman to support it, I see no chance that it will go anywhere.

There's money in War. Doesn't matter if the 'war' is on Nazis, communists, poverty, drugs or terror.

Something must be wrong with my computer screen!! I just read on it that RichieLion thinks that a bill co-sponsored by Barney Frank is long overdue and that he does not have a problem with it.

Richie, I figured all the time you had to be a closet liberal. So glad that you have now come out into the open.

However, you also have the practical side and the smarts to know the legalizing of marijuana on a national level will not go anywhere.

Gateway
 

Please realize that marijuana is recognized by any responsible Addition Theryapist as a "Gateway Drug". Research supports that a high
percentage of other drug users started on this drug. I am always amazed
why anyone (outside of serious medical problems) would ever support making
this drug legal. Excluding significant medical problems why would anyone
want to escape the realities of life. The "Rehabs" are full of these individuals suffering from alcohol or drug additions so I guess this would just make them
more successful in raising revenue. We should not forget that alcohol is just another form of a drug. Maybe a visit to ann AA meeting, or a Narc meeting
would help these people see the harm of this thinking. I have not suffered from these additions but have known many who have and cost to society
is great. It is a pretty dumb excuse to make it legal in order to avoid work for
the police or earn taxes on the sale. I feel confident the saving that may happen from these will be passed on as an additional cost to society and the quality of life for many. :bowdown:

Gateway drug? That's just so much propaganda. Coffee and tea and Coca-Cola have caffeine in them, which is a stimulant and could be considered a drug by definition. Are those drinks gateway drugs to more effective stimulants?

Enjoying an adult beverage or enjoying a smoke is not escaping reality, but enhancing it for the majority of people. There are many beneficial aspects to marijuana. In chemo therapy patients it has been shown to reduce nausea and increase appetite, with the patients ability to dose as much as needed and not have to swallow a specific amount in a pill that they may vomit out before it's active ingredient has been absorbed.

Responsible adults can handle the use of marijuana and the legalization of it will eliminate the incalculable damage done by the drug gangs that run the industry. Beside's it's not like it's hard to get now. It would be better for everyone if the sale of it was regulated.

He did a bang up job in engineering the destruction of our economy with his leadership of the Banking Committee, but he's not wrong about everything. I agree with his position on gay marriage. Are you surprised by that also?

I give credit where credit is deserved. You liberals should try it sometime.

Need for Thought
 

Unfortunately most people do not have experience with addictions and feel
using drugs is just a little hobby that is fun. An experienced addiction theryapist has an entirely different view as they have to deal with the poor
person who has moved on from the gateway drug. I will repeat that where
there is solid medical need then all bets off and it should be available. But to think of it as a good recreational drug and a good form of excape is very unfortunate and naive. To compare this class of drug as like coffee is not even rationale. The most serious problem is to take it lightly with the youth and young adults. They are the victims and future Rehab residents.
It is pretty safe to say that a very sizable majority of coke, herion, etc.
users started with the gateway drug marijuana. Once it goes from marijuana to the next class of drugs it becomes a "family" disease. Life can be so great that it is sad that some must drug themselves to escape the joys of good
living. :bowdown:

Your post tells me you don't really have any real first hand knowledge of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol, and on this issue you just have your heartbreak over casualties. Are there addictive personalities? Sure there are. People can become emotionally addicted to many different things. We might have to start a big list of what to ban.

Do you think the kids you're concerned about don't have access to marijuana because it's illegal? Do you think drinkers had no access to alcohol during Prohibition?

If you think that people who enjoy an adult beverage or even a marijuana cigarette are "escaping life", you really aren't thinking this through and embracing reality.

But I know I won't change your mind and you must know I won't change mine. I smoked for many years off and on as desired, and now haven't for many years because I haven't desired. I enjoy adult beverages more now when I'm socializing. Gee, how did I do that; just stop smoking? It's because marijuana is not physically addictive, and like most people, I'm not predisposed to addiction.

Remember those Dragnet episodes of Joe Friday busting someone?

You are fortunate and blessed to not have an addiction. I agree about social use. Reality is people will use.
My insights are not as a former user. Back a decade ago I worked with a therapist who worked with addicts mostly related to cocaine and heroin addiction. This is before Youtube. Lots of Powerpoint and video, animations about dopamine and endorphins, etc. The purpose of the job and seminars was to help health care professionals earn CEU's to maintain their job at a hospital or treatment center.
Regarding, marijuana: I was under the impression that it more powerful now than back in the 60s and 70s. The consensus seemed to that for some it can be a gateway drug. Some people have a tendency to become addicted. They have addictive personalities. It is in their DNA. Addiction is a disease, not a moral choice. Many of the interview of addicts that we did (protecting their identity) mentioned starting with a joint or alcohol. But then they are addicts. They all have a drug of choice.

Lack of legalization is not a deterrent. Social mores have changed. Some early could be just experimentation or an act of rebellion for young people.
Smoking is definitely more addictive and harder to quit. Many addicts that I met and were in rehab could quit the drugs more easily than the Marlboros.

Think of your underage drinking experiences. That didn't stop many of us. Alcohol is far more dangerous than pot. We all know someone who is an alcoholic or in recovery. I haven't read the bill but heard a soundbite. Decriminalization might free enforcement agencies and the court system to pursue other endeavors. Besides, the war on drugs hasn't worked. Remember those Say No to Drugs urinal liners? It is supply and demand. There is too much demand. Plus we could make it a sin tax like booze...
Legalize. Limit possession and monitor driving under the influence like a DUI.
For those who are addicted, repeated violations under the influence,provide treatment if they want to quit.

Not the same story for opiates.

Knowledge
 

Regarding a previous note as to not having any "real first hand knowledge of
of the recreational use of marijuana and maybe even of alcohol". How wrong this is..In fact in the immediate family we have 2 Theryapists who treat additions, who are highly educated in the field and see patients who have used "marijuana in the beginning as a recreational drug" and are now being treated for drug use and abuse. With regards to "alcohol" this is a pretty
common patient history. Did you know that if three patients came in and were
having withdrawal symptons from coke, herion and alcohol the patient most likely to die is the alcoholic as this effects every organ of the body and the one that has the most potential to have the patient die? It is wonderful one has smoked "weed" for all their life and are fine. The quesiton is what is their definition of "fine"? These are family diseases. I am getting off the "soap box" and will stop preaching on the subject since the only one that can stop is the user and nothing can help until/unless they recognize they have a problem. Unfortunately in a number of cases the family has suffered while
waiting for the person to see the problem. :bowdown:

By first hand experience I meant you and not your family or friends, and so all you really have is conjecture and a "I know better than anyone" moral compass.

You still haven't addressed any of the other social issues regarding this subject and are just hung up on the people who become addicted to substances that have nothing to do with this thread.

Do you know how many people become addicted to prescription drugs? Was marijuana the gateway to these addictions?

Richie and Penn, both realize I am sure, that there are types of people with addictive disorders. The addiction may be drugs, alcohol, pills, or other things. In the case of pain pills, it probably started with an accident for which pain pills were prescribed and the addictive disorder just keeps craving them after a while. Same way with marijuana or other drugs. Same thing goes for alcohol or cigarettes.

Not all people who use marijuana will be drug addicts just as not all who drink alcohol are alcoholics. You can say that it is a stepping stone but there are the stepping stones of beer, a sleeping pill, a pain pill for an injury, or a cigarette. Are you going to do away with all of those things? No, they are all legal and regulated.

Marijuana needed for many thousands of people on chemo for both nausea control and pain control of cancer.

There is the question of non-medical use of marijuana. If regulated, it would not be more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes.

Original posted by RichieLion
By first hand experience I meant you and not your family or friends, and so all you really have is conjecture and a "I know better than anyone" moral compass.

You still haven't addressed any of the other social issues regarding this subject and are just hung up on the people who become addicted to substances that have nothing to do with this thread.

Do you know how many people become addicted to prescription drugs? Was marijuana the gateway to these addictions?

To clarify, in addition to the immediate family who provide therapy to addicts
I have attended a famous foundation to become familiar with the disease and
thereby increas my ability to discuss it with the Professionals. The foundation was for a week and was very intense. I have also read many
books on the subject because of the scurge it has brought to society.
Regarding the question as to how many go from marijuana to other drugs?
It is a more complicated than just a percentage or number ! It is necessary
as what age the person started, the enviorment of the person, the availability of other drugs, etc. (Note: It is not unusual for the person selling
marijuana to also be selling cocaine, herion, etc. and since in a number of
cases there is more profit from these drugs it is the seller's attempt to move
the customer up in usages.) A general rule of thumb could be around 15-20%
but again that percentage is questionable since it does not break it down by
age, rural or urban, etc.
To see the ruins..drive through Woodstock on a Sunday morning and see the population in the park, visit a crisis center in the South Bronx of NYC.
Again, there is no way someone can convince anybody to quit. Only they
can make that decision and hopefully it happens before it destroys families,
create health problems, and so on. There has been a wealth of documentation that it causes a shrinkage of the brain stem, effects reproduction, etc.but since I am not terribly knowledable about this I will leave it at that. :bowdown:

Son of a gun! Here we are in total agreement on something. Loved those '60's and '70's. It's amazing how many successful people with great families and great lives I know, who I smoked a joint or three with way back when. I don't know how every one of them made it and didn't spiral down the road of addiction hell that is being preached to me in this thread.

Hey Bugs, maybe if Frank and Paul are ever successful we'll have a celebratory toke. Just maybe.

Have watched them for years
 

I've watched since the late 60's how many people have fared in the long term after using pot a little, or to the extreme. Some have gone on to a "life" of nothing but drugs, oblivion, uselessness, and then suffering chronic disease and death from lung cancer, COPD etc. and cirrhosis of the liver and whole body alcohol effects. More of them have been able to finish college, get a career job using their degree, etc. and were able to walk away from it as Richie describes. Looking at my high school and college friends who either walked away and lived a productive life, and those who became a total waste and then suffered for years from chronic disease and death, it looks like the wasted ones followed the same pattern as the typical end-stage alcoholic. It depends on the choices they made over and over, and a lot on how they cope with life's problems and stresses. The ones who made it learned over time that there is a better way to live (not in a stupor), and those who didn't make it escaped into a booze bottle or other drugs like pot.

One problem with people who use pot all the time is that they really do not know how dulled their minds have become......smart, smart people I've seen become total dullards. While they think they are fine, the rest of us see they are basically useless.

One problem I have with pot being illegal is that possession or use gets one a criminal record. I think it is counter productive and wrong for a person who smoked dope and got arrested for possession/use in college to have a criminal record following them into their search for a career job. Imagine if everyone who drank alcohol (of legal-age) in college got arrested and had a criminal record now from that. Having a criminal record for getting caught possessing pot or "paraphanalia" is extreme, when many people try it and just grow up and move on.

If this Frank-Paul bill were passed (I don't think it will), what would happen to the criminal records people have for possession/use (not convictions for operating a vehicle under the influence)?

Would people predisposed to addiction have become addicted to some substance or another if there was no such thing as marijuana or alcohol?

Food for thought
 

Just some food for thought when downplaying the seriousnss of marijuana
usage. These are just a few and do not include effects on the brain, etc.
Note the high percent in treatment centers. (322,000 is not an insignificant
number.) A strong indicator are the youth. If mom and dad can do it why can
I.
As a last point I don't see any admissions to treatment centers for usage of
coffee?

The latest treatment data indicate that in 2008 marijuana accounted for 17 percent of admissions (322,000) to treatment facilities in the United States, second only to opiates among illicit substances. Marijuana admissions were primarily male (74 percent), White (49 percent), and young (30 percent were in the 12-17 age range). Those in treatment for primary marijuana abuse had begun use at an early age: 56 percent by age 14. :bowdown:

Effects on the Heart
Marijuana increases heart rate by 20-100 percent shortly after smoking; this effect can last up to 3 hours. In one study, it was estimated that marijuana users have a 4.8-fold increase in the risk of heart attack in the first hour after smoking the drug.5 This may be due to increased heart rate as well as the effects of marijuana on heart rhythms, causing palpitations and arrhythmias. This risk may be greater in aging populations or in those with cardiac vulnerabilities.
Psychosis/Panic:

High doses of marijuana can cause psychosis or panic when you're high. Some people experience an acute psychotic reaction (disturbed perceptions and thoughts, paranoia) or panic attacks while under the influence of marijuana. This usually goes away as the drug's effects wear off. Scientists do not yet know if marijuana use causes lasting mental illness, although it can worsen psychotic symptoms in people who already have the mental illness schizophrenia, and it can increase the risk of long-lasting psychosis in those vulnerable to the disease.

Of course not. Coffee is the gateway drug.

One thing you need to understand. I'm not reading reports done by anti-drug activist organizations, I'm not citing unsubstantiated studies by funded foundations that are unnamed, and I'm not trying to imagine the effects of usage.

I speak from years of personal experience and observation. I don't think there's much you can say that will "enlighten" me. I know you think ill of me for that statement. But it is what it is.

Penn - I see exactly where you are coming from with your statements about marijuana. However, the same things can be said for alcohol and cigarettes. None of them are on the "healthy" list of things to do but regulated (no selling to minors) usage is permitted for alcohol and cigarettes.

Cigarettes are terrible. They cause cancer as well as chronic lung disease that has cost taxpayers billions of dollars - but they are legal.

Booze is the same thing. I know the risks when I have a shot of Johnnie Walker Black but it is legal. I know it can cause liver damage, brain damage, and heart attack. Alcoholics can legally buy booze. Why not stop the sale of booze?

The addictive disorder person will take any of those products as well as glue sniffing, aerosol sniffing, banana peel smoking, or just about anything and turn it into a life changing event for themselves.

Some thngs are not good for you but are still legal.

Marijuana as a Gateway Drug - Cause or Correlation?
 

Decriminalization may be the best course for dealing with drugs. Portugal may provide an intelligent path to follow. The below referenced article from Scientific American shows that with decriminalization and the offer of treatment, if desired, has led to a remarkable drop in drug usage including drugs such as LSD, heroin, cocaine and other ‘street drugs’ and their accompanying health consequences. It appears to be much more effective and less expensive to offer treatment rather than jailing people using these drugs.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...riminalization

Time magazine examined and discredited the idea of marijuana as a gateway drug in the article, “Marijuana as a Gateway Drug: The Myth That Will Not Die.” Time contended that the idea of the gateway drug arose because of confusion between correlation and cause. Use of marijuana correlates with the use of other drugs, but there appears to be no causation link.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/10/2...-will-not-die/

Thanks for the links BBQ.

If Alone
 

If a person wants to drink and become an alcoholic or use other drugs such
marijuana, cocaine, and so on it's fine. The problem is that they don't do it in a closed enviorment and it is a family disease. If someone wants to harm themselves, or try to avoid reality heck who cares. Again, they spread
this disease to the family and they are the ones that suffer.
A good idea to get the impact of these is if the person would go to an AA meeting, or an Ala non meeting or go to a treatment center or crisis center to understand the devestaton to the body and family.
This idea of comparing these to coffee is to avoid responsibity for ones acts.
Again, if someone wants to harm themselves, let them do it. Unfortunately when you see or observe an alcoholic or drug user you don't see the harm it is doing to the families of these people.
Regarding alcohol..do you know that unlike the other drugs it is the one that effects every organ in the body. It has the same chemical interaction with the body as embalming fluid.
The addiction theryapists see this everyday, including the attempts to justify the usage. The most sad part is to see the terrible effects they have had on the family and the distruction to the children. As it is said, "Oh look Dad and Mom are smoking weed so it must OK for me,"(age 13). Future patient of a theryapist and a potential for mental and physical problems.:bowdown:

Legalize it and the liberals will find a way for Medicaid to pay for it for their constituants. If it's legal, and they cannot afford it, it will become their RIGHT (under some ammendment) to have it.

Beyond That
 

Not only will the Liberal's find a way for everyone to pay for this form of drug abuse but they will also include and expand the costs of medical treatments,
(e.g. crisis centers, more hospital fees, rehabs, halfway houses, ++ many more costs associated with drug abuse). One thing drug abusers and alcoholics know is how to work the system !! As I have said in other notes
if someone want to kill themselves, use denial as a tool to continue drug abuse or abuse alcohol then so be it. Unfortunately 99% also cause terrible
pain for their families who become less important than their desire for escape. It is a selfish addiction !! :bowdown:

I know lots of things people do that could be considered dangerous and in a worse case scenario would damage themselves and hurt the family who rely on them, as you keep pointing out.

The worst one I can think of is motor vehicles, especially motorcycles. People who ride motorcycles are just asking for trouble and when they crash, it's never a simple fender bender but a usually serious injury or death. We should outlaw them. Plus, as I've read, all motorcyclist's first 2 wheeler was a bicycle. Bicycles being the gateway vehicle to the dangerous motorcycle. So maybe we should outlaw them also.

Cars are bad enough. You know many many more people die in auto accidents than from smoking marijuana. Oh wait, bad example; nobody dies from smoking marijuana. They might get the munchies though and stop into a McDonald's and we know that all that fast food can kill you, so maybe we can say that.

Take a closer look at the Netherlands and the pandoras box they created for themselves. take a closer look at colorado which legaize marj for medial use. They are reporting more negative issues that they now have to address than they ever imagined.

Take a closer look at people who claim to smoke marj only as a recreational drug. what do you see? More importantly what is it that you don't see?

Logically why would anyone want to encourage people to develop a bad and dangerous habit by legalizing it? Why allow legalizing it while spending enormous amount to stop people from smoking?

Let's face it we have become a country accustom to taking the easy way out. Essentially we have lost our ability to solve our problems as a nation

PS with all the real problems this country is facing we have these two jerks wasting time on legalizing an illegal and dangerous drug! Give me a break

I really just messing around, as I've heard self righteous do gooders my whole life who try to take away people's ability to make their own choices in life, and I think they can just as well mind their own business.

I''ve always taken a libertarian approach to the use of marijuana which is far less dangerous than alcohol which is readily available for adult use.

I was on the Board of Directors for an organization that dealt with run a way teens. Attended more than one group therapy session as an observer and after 5 years of inolvement there is no one including Jesus Christ, praise be his holy name, that could convince me that legalization is anything more than users push to get people out of their way from continuing their irresponsible habit. As one member said how long before we get this addiction covered by medicare/medicaid.

The stories that unfolded at those group meetings had me in tears as I watched families struggling with what was described as reacreational use gone awry.

MJ has a higher THC content today than it did in the pass. Kids have no viable role models. Movie idols tell kids drugs are cool, sports figures tell kids drugs are the avenue to success.. Movies suggest that drugs are natural and common place. and now we have the government saying it is OK to do drugs.

What the heck is happening to us? Which way is our moral compass pointed? Why is abnormal behavior cool and the new norm? Who made what rule?

Have todays parents abidicated their responsibilities preferring the governement to tell them what is acceptable. Is teaching diversity more important that civics and history which by the way measures high schools effectiveness at only 12%. Sorry members but when our kids are more focus on their waist measurements than they are their IQ's you know we are in deep trouble.

I know. Parents have the ultimate responsibility to teach their offspring, don't they. The collapse of the moral compass provided for people by their churches is fast disappearing in many parts of the country, also.

When I was a kid, beer and wine, and more, was readily available if you had any imagination, and we did, believe me. But after the initial thrill of rebellion wore off though, we settled into our more adult socialized behavior concerning the stuff. It was the "forbidden" that was so exciting at that time.

There's no easy answer and way to protect kids from experimenting. marijuana is as easy, or easier, to get today as ever. Any one who wants it can locate a source pretty easily if desired. I think regulating the stuff would give the government more of a handle on it's use and abuse than the ineffective policies currently failing to even dent the trade in it. There's too much money in it.

Comparing
 

It is so sad to compare driving to drug use. Anyone who has visitied a crisis
center or seen someone having a grand maul seizier from drugs, or someone
laying in this hospital with liver failure. If you want to know what a liver looks
like after alcohol abuse just take a sponge, let it totally dry out, squeeze it and watch it crumble. If you want to see a young person using marijuana
just hang out near a drug center and watch their behavior. If you want to
really see some action go to a corner where you can buy the pot and then be ready for the person to offer a stronger drug, (e.g. coke, etc.). Oh of course you are an adult and can dismiss the offer. Think of a young person
13-16 years old and how strong they are in saying no after peer pressure. But
their parents smoke weed so they should be able to buy it from someone..
Most of the people who try to justify drugs, including marijuana and alcohol do not see the real destruction or attend meeting to see the family impact.
I am off the soap box. Some attitudes just make the Theryapist gain more
patients and bank more revenue. :bowdown:

The only thing I'm going to say to you is that after reading all of your posts is...........the word is "therapist"

I've seen just as many people who have no problem with marijuana as those that cannot handle it. Much like alcohol.

Some of the smartest people I've ever known - including those who have started several successful enterprises - have used it. When I specifically asked a close friend why, he said that if he took prescribed medication for his condition, it made him sick. Marijuana didn't make him sick.

Me? I've never touched the stuff. Closest I came was twice getting a 'contact high' from being in the same room - and that was when I was 16 & 18.

I don't like it. My gut reaction is to NOT legalize the stuff. BUT - considering that alcohol is legal and taxes, it's hard to argue against that.

As far as the 'gateway drug' business, that's the argument of the 1970s and 80s.

And if you're hanging around or working in treatment facilities, yeah, that's what you're going to see - people ruined by drugs. I was shocked to find out how much was going in in people's everyday lives who WEREN'T ruined. I'd never heard the term "high functioning alcoholic" (and similar others) until I was in my 30s.

For the most part, I'm neutral on this - though I'd like to see the equivalent of a 'breathalyzer' for cannabis.

Thanks
 

As they say..most people who support the useage are the ones that want to use it and could care less about the long term effects (medically and physically) and on the family and on the risks of exposing youth. Of course there are ones that can use it and not go on to further drugs. Of course they still suffer the medical and physically effects but that is tied to the denial. And of course alcohol does harm to body and some can escape the potential addictions but not the physical harm. If someone wants to have a cocktail
once in awhile there is absolutely no harm. It is the abusers that also like to expand the mental escape through marijuana + on to other drugs.
Good luck. Since we have 2 in the immediate family who deal with these individuals the good news is that their patient census just grows as does their revenue. One has such a patient load that they cannot take any additional and there are alot waiting for help.:bowdown:

The bottom line, and I am sure all will agree, is that this bill has no chance whatsoever of making it into law.

Yeah, it's in the "fat chance" category.

Imagine if someone were trying to bring a new product, "Beer", to market. Think the FDA would allow it?

Tbug...from your lips to God's ears.

I think God will leave this matter to men to decide. After all, marijuana is one of God's creations.

richielion: Yes but in my hometown they used it the way God intended...and that was to make rope and not to add it as an ingredient to a cookie receipe


Bottom line, it isn't what God gives us ,its, do we have enough sense to use it wisely and in that vien the 1980 TV commercial expresses it best "That's why its called dope".