QUESTION for those who support Gay Rights...
 

when you discuss Gay rights, do you include transgender and/or transsexual in your support ?

Serious question as doing some reading it sure seems that way in most cases ! Thus asking those who have been strong for gay rights, are those folks included in your support ?

Cannot say I know that much about either transgenders or transsexuals. Transgender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism

I support human rights and I do not ask if they are a gay Catholic Priest or if they are a women/man or even half way through surgery to change from one to another.

So those who support the right to marriage for same sex would also support the right to marriage for transgender and/or transsexual ?

That seems to be the next move coming.

It depends on what kind of "rights" you're talking about.

Things like marriage and civil rights recognizing those who've been through "gender reassignment surgery" (as I understand the latest medical definition)? Yes. I do.

Things like the "right" of inmates to demand the state pay for such surgery while they're in prison? No Bleeping Way!

Some are saying a person has rights based on how they perceive their orientation.

Is someone decides they relate better in the world to a different gender orientation display (can't even say opposite sex; as it means little today), they claim rights based on those feelings.

As in the recently publicized case of a student born male, and who considers his (?) orientation to be bi-sexual and wants the right to go to school in full out female oriented clothing and makeup, when he feels inspired to do so.

The school banned him (?) as "a distraction", and he's enlisted an attorney.

Some venues have stated that if a "born male", or "born female", is unsure of their orientation, they have the legal right to dress as they wish and use the rest room facilities of their daily "choice decision" for that day.

I guess this is all considered to be human progress.

This is why I began this thread. With all due respect to DJPLONG with whom I disagree mostly but respect his opinion I was doing some investigating, NOT to find fault but to try and understand, and ran into this particular twist. Actually on a transgender web site there is a banner "thanking" President Obama and I got to thinking, and I say this honestly with all due respect, what other activities might there be asking for rights as the years go by.

I know supporters of gay rights are sincere, but those who speak of what can come from it may have a point.

Q
 

Bucco, I have pointed out several times in the past on this forum that the "gay rights" agenda is the LGBT agenda. I was wrong. Now, the agenda is the LGBTQ agenda. The lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered and queer agenda is what is being promoted. The push is for a nongendered world. Look it up. I had to. I'd never heard of nongendered people. The idea goes hand-in-hand with what we are hearing about "the war on women." Look up lesbian feminism, social hierarchy and the queer theory. It is being pushed and taught in our intitutions of higher learning around this country.

Out of curiousity, I joined another forum about a year ago. I am one of maybe three members with a conservative viewpoint. It has been a very eye-opening, educational, disheartening and at times frightening experience for me. You are considered uneducated, a bigot and backwards if you believe in God, believe there is a difference in men and women in any way shape or form and make any type of judgement based on morality.

Human rights only, there is no need for any other kind of rights. They just create special interest groups who can be pandered to.

I doubt if there is a LGBTQ agenda. Gays and lesbians come in all political affiliations and colors. They would have different individual re-actions to transsexuals and transgenders as would many straights. LGBT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"LGB issues can be seen as a matter of sexual orientation or attraction. These distinctions have been made in the context of political action in which LGB goals may be perceived to differ from transgender and transsexual goals like same‐sex marriage legislation and human rights work that is not inclusive of transgender and intersex people. Similarly, some intersex people want to be included in LGBT groups and would prefer the term "LGBTI" while others insist that they are not a part of the LGBT community and would rather that they not be included as part of the term." from above linked Wikipedia article

Tal, there are too many sources to quote here. Please, if you are interested, educate yourself. Nearly every university has a center for LGBTQ issues. Look and see for yourself.

Here are a few sites to get you started for some other sources that what I'm saying is true: Civil Rights | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team

Funders for LGBTQ Issues

LGBTQ Nation – News, Opinions, Arts and Culture – The Nation’s LGBTQ News Magazine

Top UN officials urge countries to tackle violence based on sexual orientation

Yes

Tal, I just read the the additional Wiki link you put in your previous post. I suppose you answered the question for yourself. From your Wiki link: "Yogya****a Principles in Action is a movement for activists and human rights defenders to promote human rights, especially those of LGBTI around the Yogya****a Principles, supported by ARC International, Hivos and Dreilinden Gesellschaft für gemeinnütziges Privatkapitel, Germany.

"They published the "Activist's Guide" on the Yogya****a Principles in August 2010 and also provided translations of the Yogya****a Principles in languages which are not official languages of the United Nations, including Catalan, Dutch, Euskara (Basque), Filipino, German, Hungarian, Indonesian, Lithuanian, Nepali, Persian, Portuguese, Sinhala, Slovak and Tamil.

"On 28 February 2011, International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission held a meeting to celebrate the launch of the Yogya****a Principles accompanying 'Activist's Guide'.[1] And on 4 July 2011, Philippine LGBT groups celebrate the Yogya****a Principles with the 'Activist's Guide' "

Should a short white Christian male be treated the same as

a tall black Muslim female

or a average white Hindu male that is bald.



POINT: Stop dividing and treat everyone fairly and the same.

For whatever reason, this site will not allow the word in the post. So the letters "****a" go after Yogya. Weird. See what happens when I put the Wiki link to explain this idea of international rights for the LGBTQI community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogya****a_Principles

I want to be kind, but I will never ever link to Wikipedia..the single most unreliable source out there, but it IS easy so......

Thanks for your post....as I said my investigation, which has only begun, was really because I felt bad about my attitude and DJPLONG adivsed to get educated, and I say that in a nice way...thus I began..however..

I ran into the same thing....if you have a basic religious belief you are considered backward, stupid, awkward and "behind the times".

I have great fears of where this country is going. I began my search into my beliefs and came out stronger in my beliefs and feelings and MORE stringent in my views that this country better slow it down.

Our cultural and economic and moral "strides" which many consider to be progressive are ripping my country, which used to be a leader, apart and that is how I feel. You other folks can call me names, and you most surely will,but I suppose that is another of the great "strides" the lack of discipline shown in our remarks to each other and the tolerance for lying, that we are taking.

The U of FL's LGBT site.
 

LGBT Affairs | Multicultural and Diversity Affairs | The University of Florida

Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Ally Programs Office : University of Minnesota.

Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons

So you still don't think there is an agenda?

Sure, these groups have agendas. They are social groups which usually also have political ideas and such.

The BYU gay group is interesting.
Affirmation: Gay & Lesbian Mormons

Good. You called into question my previous post. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. :)

You're kind of quoting me out of context. I meant that there was not a single agenda for the huge number of people that might be described as gay, lesbian, bi, transsexual, transgender, queer, ally or whatever initials you put into this. A group of people at the U of MN, for example, might have an agenda which has some kind of goals that has something to do with gay/lesbian, etc rights. However, a group at the U of FL would probably have a different set of goals for gay/lesbian, etc.

The group at BYU would have yet a different set of goals for gays/lesbians, etc., rights.

To me, I thought that you saw that the fact that nearly every university in the nation has an office to address and further the LGBTQI xyz community shows there was and is an agenda in place. The fact that there is a UN resolution addressing and pushing the univeral rights of the LGBTQI community shows there is an agenda. It hasn't happened arbitrarily.

I did notice while searching that the ACLU has a movement afoot on this also.

Bucco, if you get a chance read what you can about a book by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen called, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90's (1989, Doubleday/Bantam), or better yet, read the book.

Hunter Madsen went by a penname, Erastes Pill. Here is a link to an essay the two wrote. They wrote the handbook for today's Gay or LGBTQ movement and agenda. Whatever your beliefs and opinions, saying there isn't an agenda is very misinformed.


THE OVERHAULING OF STRAIGHT AMERICA - By Marshall Kirk and Erastes Pill

I'd post on this, but I can't stop laughing right now.

It's okay if that's not understood.

U.N. Gay Rights Protection Resolution Passes, Hailed As 'Historic Moment'

UN High Commissioner Pillay presents study on anti-LGBT violence, discrimination | HeyWeeqender.com

Gay/lesbian rights though would not be handled the same way in say Saudia Arabia vs. Indonesia vs. Japan vs. Sweden vs. Norway vs. Iceland vs. the United States.

There was a 60 Minutes piece last night on gays/lesbians in Tel Aviv. The response about someone's being gay/lesbian in Tel Aviv was "who cares?" They have more important problems to worry about.

The gay agenda has been underway for a number of years now with the assistance of Educational Institutions, Hollywood, NOW, ACLU, etc. The gay community is a very wealthy and well connected community and have used a two prong approach in their movement that being "empathy" and "civil rights".

If you think about it, the ERA (proposed COnstitutional Amendment from the 1970s) would have done the same thing. By banning discrimination on the basis of sex, it wouldn't matter WHAT sex you were (or perceived yourself to be) because discriminating on that basis would be unconstitutional.

"Gay agenda." That is like saying that there's a straight agenda. Or, an African-American agenda. Doesn't really work as too many people are involved.

There are many separate groups partially made up of gays/lesbians/etc. which may have a clear goal like Democrats and keeping President Obama in office, or Republicans with getting Mitt Romney in office. After November 2012 though the goal changes for these two groups-- Democrats and Republicans.

Will bet that the gays/lesbians at a Catholic University like Georgetown U. have different interests and goals than those at say UCLA or UC, Berkeley.

My point is that very few gays/lesbians/bis would probably be involved with politics and social marches and the like. The same with straights.

I would say you are really naive to the agenda of the gay community today. In my own circle of family and friends, the activism, especially with the availability of social networking sites, of my gay relatives and friends have increased dramatically. The ability to stay current with coming protests and marches, along with disseminating pertinent information within their community has never been greater.

There are no real organizations of straight people dedicated to a straight agenda that average people belong to. That is not true of the gay community. They are almost all active now and paying attention.

I agree. What point is original poster trying to make? That there are still some folks you can discrimininate against?

Hi Tal: I respectively disagree. It is an intentional gay agenda and it doesn't require many separate groups but only a few selected people well placed that have the money opportunity and know how to push it along. Like say Hollywood where we see now on every movie or TV show a gay type that is adapt at making so called gay haters , especially white guys look like country bumpkins. Hollywood just loves to play the populist game because it gives you a fuzzy feeling all over.

For instance recall that very popular movie "It's A wWnderful Life" Well old George gives it to the mean old banker who demands credit worthy clients. Gosh wasn't it the lack of proper underwriting as to the credit worthiness of people that got us into the housing bubble. You mean people really need to pay able to pay back their loans or else lose their investment? Not in Hollywood land no no no those mean old bankers taking back people's property even though they never made one payment toward the loan the bank gave them to buy it in the first place. How dare these bad bankers throw these people out on the streets.

Now the Hollywood elite are mischaracterizing people's reactions to a very serious and potentially dangerous issue. To legitimize and normalize a condition which they will push as a civil right or the right thing to do and which is abnormal and unnatural, and will open up a pandora's box. Previous posters have done an absolute wonderful and illuminating presentation on what the pandora's box will look like. Do we dare open that box???Hmmmmmmmmmm Hint: Heroin feels good going in each and every time until.............Hollywood etc are leading us down a primrose path once again with this gay issue.

Being gay is a normal condition. Or, it has been in many cultures and societies. Timeline of LGBT history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some of the other questions such as those involving cross dressers, sex change operations, people who think like the opposite sex, etc. are not exactly what I would call "normal" in many other cultures and societies.

I just do not buy your pandora's box nor that many mainstream gays/lesbians are out their advocating for the right to cross dress, have sex change operations, or whatever.

Tatarzac, are you saying you don't consider transgendered, nonconforming gendered or queers (which, btw, is PC in the LGBTQ dictionary) "normal?" But you consider homosexuals normal? I'm confused by your post.

Also, what does cross-dressing have to do with the discussion?

I do kind of see this as the point of this thread the way it is going. There are mainstream homosexuals that would probably see transsexuals, transgenders and others as part of the fringe side of the LGBT movement. Not saying they should be discriminated against because of this.

I would also assume that many in the transgender, transsexual, cross dressers, allies and other categories consider themselves hetereosexual and not homosexual.

Hey Tal: Homosexuality was a bonafide abnormality in the DSM until it was removed for political reasons around 1984. Paraphilias (sexual fetishes) is consider an abornormality but not homosexuality. the fact remains that the experts are still arguing that homosexuality belongs in the DSM defined as a mental disorder. Its one thing to protect a person's human rights and to punish those guility of hate crimes but to legalize and legitimize this unnatural act is asking for trouble. By the way the most discriminated people in this country are those with mental disorders , Its a crime what is happening or not happening to or for these folks

I agree with you about people with mental disorders. This is also used by some as a weapon. It is easy for someone in power to label someone mentally ill if that person's ideas some how reflect poorly on those with power.

I do not see homosexuality as a mental illness. It is often those with power who write down what it means to have a mental illness.

"Normal" is more a state of mind. I mean, by *mathematical* standards, "men" are not "normal".

"Normal" evolves.

Ten years ago, thinking gay marriage was ok was not "normal".

50 years ago, thinking that women deserved equal pay for equal work was not "normal".

75 years ago, thinking that European problems couldn't affect us was "normal".

100 years ago, thinking that women should be allowed to vote was not "normal".

In some countries, today, it's STILL not "normal".