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-   The Villages, Florida, Non Villages Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/)
-   -   What's the difference between school football and hazing? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/whats-difference-between-school-football-hazing-54928/)

Villages PL 06-13-2012 10:49 AM
What's the difference between school football and hazing?
 
What's the difference considering both, at times, have caused injury and death? If you accept that they both cause injury and death, why is one allowed and encouraged while the other is banned?

For more information on this subject, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"

Bogie Shooter 06-13-2012 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 505410)
What's the difference considering both, at times, have caused injury and death?
Its the same thing.
ESPN.com - OTL: Sports hazing incidents

BaylorBear 06-13-2012 01:12 PM
One has a large audience and the other doesn't?

OscarOlden 06-13-2012 02:05 PM
One is SUPPOSED to be fun and the other is mean.

BobandSandy 06-13-2012 02:11 PM
Football: a group strives to have victory that is shared by all
Hazing: a group strives to have victory by causing failure in one

RichieLion 06-13-2012 02:47 PM
I'm having trouble understanding how this thread's question is garnering serious thought.

There is nothing whatsoever similar between football and hazing.

One is a sport, and one is a ritual. Not even remotely similar things.

I can say:

What's the difference between football and rock climbing?

What's the difference between football and motorcycling?

What's the difference between football and paragliding?

I can probably think of a hundred more examples that fit the parameter of your query.

Villages PL 06-14-2012 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion (Post 505498)
I'm having trouble understanding how this thread's question is garnering serious thought.

There is nothing whatsoever similar between football and hazing.

One is a sport, and one is a ritual. Not even remotely similar things.

I can say:

What's the difference between football and rock climbing?

What's the difference between football and motorcycling?

What's the difference between football and paragliding?

I can probably think of a hundred more examples that fit the parameter of your query.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, RichieLion. I'll try to answer your questions:

My original question (on this thread) asked about school football and hazing. I assumed it would be understood that we are talking about activities that are usually engaged in by students. Football is a school activity that is permitted and encouraged. Hazing, the "ritual" engaged in by students is usually forbidden. Anyway, to make a long story short, we are talking about student activities. Rock climbing, motorcycling, and paragliding are not usually school activities, as far as I am aware of.

Bogie Shooter 06-14-2012 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter (Post 505413)
Well, I sure missed the point of the OP.

skyguy79 06-14-2012 11:59 AM
...

Irish Rover 06-14-2012 10:31 PM
Huh!!!!!!!!!

graciegirl 06-15-2012 07:24 AM
How does this tie in with eating vegetables?

Villages PL 06-16-2012 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter (Post 505791)
Well, I sure missed the point of the OP.
Well, I guess my point is that they both have caused injury and death. But then the real question is: Why is one allowed and encouraged while the other is banned? Perhaps I should have stated that question from the beginning? I'll go back and include it.

Villages PL 06-16-2012 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Rover (Post 506069)
Huh!!!!!!!!!
Sorry if it was confusing. I went back and made a change to my opening post so as to clarify what this is about.

BarryRX 06-16-2012 11:11 AM
I think I'll give this a try, even though I think RichieLion answered it well. Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play. Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible. Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing. Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.

Villages PL 06-16-2012 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 506117)
How does this tie in with eating vegetables?
Thanks for reminding me. I'll save that for the "Medical and Health Discussion" board.

Irish Rover 06-16-2012 11:22 AM
Seriously!!!!! Is this the dumbest question ever asked on this site?

Villages PL 06-16-2012 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryRX (Post 506697)
I think I'll give this a try, even though I think (blank) answered it well.
I don't think so. What was expressed was fatalism, as follows: "People die all the time from other activities so we should just accept death as inevitable."

Quote:
Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play.
Good so far!

Quote:
Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible.
What about death? Don't forget death. I just did a search to see if I could get an idea of how serious a problem this might be. Up until now, I really wasn't sure.

I searched: "How many people have died playing football." To my surprise I found that 325 boys and men have died (directly or indirectly) from 1982 - 2008. I would say it's a fairly significant number. Wouldn't you?

Quote:
Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing.
So football has better intentions. I suppose that's something football fans can hang their hat on while forgetting how many have died. Not to mention serious long lasting injuries.

Quote:
Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.
You may be right on that point. One has better intentions. Although many might say that hazing starts out as a way to have some fun. And some might say that there are football players who are also bullies.

zcaveman 06-16-2012 02:11 PM
If this thread was just about hazing as in the FAMU hazing I guess there could be a meaningful dialogue. But to compare it to football is ludicrous.

As far back as I can remember there was always hazing in sports. When you joined the baseball, football, basketball or track team, and you were one of the newbies you were subjected to some kind of hazing. It was expected. Carrying the equipment, hot-rub in your jock strap, singing songs, etc. But it was nothing demeaning or physically damaging. Even the pro rookies are subjected to hazing.

What they did at FAMU was beyond hazing. It was brutalizing of the rookies and they should be punished.

Mikeod 06-16-2012 06:04 PM
To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.

graciegirl 06-16-2012 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeod (Post 506880)
To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.
Nailed it! As usual.

2BNTV 06-16-2012 07:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryRX (Post 506697)
I think I'll give this a try, even though I think RichieLion answered it well. Our sports like football and basketball are meant to test our physical strength, speed, and skill against one another or against a standard. They are governed by rules and hopefully by a sense of fair play. Whenever we pit our strength and speed against someone else's, injuries are possible. Hazing has none of these elements. It is an institutionalized form of bullying meant to cause pain and humiliation as some sort of entry fee into the organization doing the hazing. Just because two completely activities can lead to the same conclusion (injury or death), it is faulty logic to say that the two activities are then the same.
:agree: Excellent post.

Villages PL 06-16-2012 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BNTV (Post 506902)
:agree: Excellent post.
Yes, if you ignore the fact of 325 deaths over 26 years, it's not bad. Not to mention numerous long-lasting or life-long injuries like concussions. All one need do is ignore the facts.

graciegirl 06-16-2012 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 506917)
Yes, if you ignore the fact of 325 deaths over 26 years, it's not bad. Not to mention numerous long-lasting or life-long injuries like concussions. All one need do is ignore the facts.
Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.

RichieLion 06-16-2012 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 506972)
Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.

I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.
There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live. Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups. Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.

skyguy79 06-16-2012 10:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion (Post 506973)
There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live. Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups. Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.
I too was brought to a hospital due to a bicycle accident and I was also injured while playing HS football and had to have numerous sports theropy sessions at RPI in Troy, NY. Today I still have dead nerve ends on my leg from that injury. Despite those experiences, I still agree with everything you have stated.

redwitch 06-17-2012 11:34 AM
One of the most dangerous sports is horseback riding. The most sports injuries in TV are caused by pickleball. I broke my elbow going to the bathroom in the dark. There is risk in anything we do.

Hazing is a form of bullying used to see if you're "acceptable" to a group. It is not like the conditioning required to play a sport. Football and other sports do not go out of their way to humiliate you. Nor is there deliberate harm. There is protection for football in the way of helmets, pads, rules. Hazing has no protection and no rules. So, how can you compare the two?

Villages PL 06-17-2012 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 506972)
Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.
It's not my endeavor. I'm not an anti-football activist. This website is the first time I ever brought it up. Eventually, it will fade away and I will most likely never bring it up again.

Quote:
I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.
I had loads of fun playing touch football in grammer school. There wasn't any formal program but it was still fun. So I'm not trying to change kids from wanting to play or adults from watching.

Quote:
I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.
True, so lets just reduce the risks. Kids can have lots of fun without knocking their brains out or killing themselves.

Quote:
If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.
Yes, but in all of those endeavors, measures are taken to reduce risks.

Quote:
Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.
And that could be accomplished with touch football. (Hey, no snickering from the peanut gallery.)

Quote:
I just don't understand the point of this thread.
You might understand it more by going to the political board.

2BNTV 06-17-2012 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graciegirl (Post 506972)
Well, I think that diverting folks from enjoying football is a hopeless and futile endeavor. Even making it completely safe is not possible in my opinion.

I personally am not, nor ever have been interested in playing...which is a good thing since I am as clumsy as a cow on a crutch. But I do know this, you won't change kids from wanting to play and adults from finding it interesting to watch.

I am saddened by the number of concussions and lifelong injuries that occur to young people who play contact sports...but I guess that in playing or living life, we have to take on some risks or life would lose a lot of it's zest and it's meaning.

If we would avoid the risk of dying, we would never give birth to children, or drive a car or leave our homes. We would never join the military and defend our country or be a police officer or a fireman or a doctor or a paramedic or a nurse or a teacher. There is risk of death in some ways in all we do.

Team sports help us to learn to work together toward a common goal and keep us healthy and active.

I just don't understand the point of this thread.
Well said. Excellent post.

A horse has four legs and a chair has four legs.

Logical to say that a horse is the same as a chair? I'm sorry to say that I don't seem to be able to correlate hazing with sports. I am well aware of the long term effects of playing football but as Gracie said, it won't be stopped or banned.

A cow on a crutch? Gracie you are a hoot. :smiley:

graciegirl 06-17-2012 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2BNTV (Post 507147)
Well said. Excellent post.

A horse has four legs and a chair has four legs.

Logical to say that a horse is the same as a chair? I'm sorry to say that I don't seem to be able to correlate hazing with sports. I am well aware of the long term effects of playing football but as Gracie said, it won't be stopped or banned.

A cow on a crutch? Gracie you are a hoot. :smiley:
I am so glad you are back and you like my humor.

Hugs to you, fella!!!:wave:

2BNTV 06-17-2012 12:39 PM
Same to you Gracie. :wave:

Villages PL 06-17-2012 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichieLion (Post 506973)
There are many risks in life that if we don't take robs life of much of what is important and memorable.

When I was about 14 I had an accident on my bicycle and broke my clavicle. I could have broken my neck. Maybe I shouldn't have been allowed to ride bicycles. But, I would have missed all the great adventures and the places I'd seen and the people I met.

Live and let live.
Exactly. And the same may apply here on this thread.


Quote:
Stop trying to control other people's lives because of your own fears and hangups.
You want me to stop? That sounds controlling!


Quote:
Believe me, nobody appreciates a buttinsky.
Even so, I appreciate you butting in on this thread because I may have learned something from it.

Villages PL 06-17-2012 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Rover (Post 506701)
Seriously!!!!! Is this the dumbest question ever asked on this site?
I think you may perceive it as dumb because you are suddenly confronted with something you have never seriously considered before.

It's very cleaver of you to try to change the topic to "dumbest question ever". But lets get back to the topic of this thread: With all the hundreds of deaths and serious injuries over the past couple of decades, why has football not been banned while hazing has?

Villages PL 06-17-2012 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zcaveman (Post 506777)
If this thread was just about hazing as in the FAMU hazing I guess there could be a meaningful dialogue. But to compare it to football is ludicrous.

As far back as I can remember there was always hazing in sports. When you joined the baseball, football, basketball or track team, and you were one of the newbies you were subjected to some kind of hazing. It was expected. Carrying the equipment, hot-rub in your jock strap, singing songs, etc. But it was nothing demeaning or physically damaging. Even the pro rookies are subjected to hazing.

What they did at FAMU was beyond hazing. It was brutalizing of the rookies and they should be punished.
Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?

quirky3 06-17-2012 02:14 PM
Follow the Money
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 507170)
Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?
There is a reality here that helps explain it - not saying it is good or bad. Hazing does not make money for schools or professional sports teams, advertisers or TV stations. People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them. For better or worse, football is built into American culture and economy at so many levels, and people depend on it financially. I think that explains why it is not banned. Maybe over time it will be evolve into a kinder, gentler sport - but maybe not.

zcaveman 06-17-2012 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 507170)
Your contention is that hazing, except for the FAMU incident, is not all that bad. Well then football, with 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008, seems to be far worse. Why has it not been banned along with hazing?
What I was trying to say is that hazing is a rite of passage. Extreme hazing (ala FAMU) should not be allowed. I have not checked but there are deaths and serious injuries in almost all sports. Do you want to ban them also? Or are you just picking on football for some reason?

If you were to do as statistic study of the number of people that play football versus the 325 deaths from 1982 - 2008 (what happened to 2009 to the present?), you will find it is a very small percentage. I am not saying that even one death is worth it but in the statistical model it is very small.

Villages PL 06-17-2012 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zcaveman (Post 507236)
....." Or are you just picking on football for some reason?
Glad you asked. I'm learning as I go along and I just learned who Patty Sexton is by doing a search online. Try searching, "Give some thought to call to ban HS football". From what I understand, she is a Penn. school board member and a teacher. 1) She doesn't think taxes should fund HS football. 2) She worries about the possibility of expensive law suits (which would put tax payers at risk) and 3) she worries about serious long lasting injuries to students.

Quote:
If you were to do as statistic study of the number of people that play football versus the 325 deaths from 1982 - 2008 (what happened to 2009 to the present?), you will find it is a very small percentage. I am not saying that even one death is worth it but in the statistical model it is very small.
Thanks. I understand it's not a lot, especially if you look at the number of deaths per year and then per month.

2BNTV 06-17-2012 06:46 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Villages PL 06-17-2012 06:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeod (Post 506880)
To distill it down, one is an activity you enter at your own volition, hopefully aware of the risks and benefits of participation. The other is an activity you are subjected to usually against your will without prior awareness of the risks. BIG difference.
OMG! You nailed it? No, I don't think so. :eek:

It starts in high school and at that young age they often think they're indestructible. They get sucked in by the "glamour" and excitement, or whatever you choose to call it. The other (hazing) they're anxious to prove they're tough enough to take it to be accepted. Again, they still think they are indestructible. Acceptance is everything as it is in football.

:024:

Villages PL 06-17-2012 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwitch (Post 507124)
One of the most dangerous sports is horseback riding. The most sports injuries in TV are caused by pickleball. I broke my elbow going to the bathroom in the dark. There is risk in anything we do.

Hazing is a form of bullying used to see if you're "acceptable" to a group. It is not like the conditioning required to play a sport. Football and other sports do not go out of their way to humiliate you. Nor is there deliberate harm. There is protection for football in the way of helmets, pads, rules. Hazing has no protection and no rules. So, how can you compare the two?
Regardless of intentions, whether good or bad, we can compare the resulting injuries and deaths. I don't know how many serious injuries or deaths can be attributed to hazing but their's a fair number of injuries and deaths caused by football. A search turned up 325 deaths of men and boys from 1982 - 2008. The numbers of injuries may be more difficult to compare but I assume there are a lot of injuries in football.

For more information on this subject, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"

Villages PL 06-17-2012 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quirky3 (Post 507199)
There is a reality here that helps explain it - not saying it is good or bad. Hazing does not make money for schools or professional sports teams, advertisers or TV stations. People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them. For better or worse, football is built into American culture and economy at so many levels, and people depend on it financially. I think that explains why it is not banned. Maybe over time it will be evolve into a kinder, gentler sport - but maybe not.
You made some excellent points. And I got a chuckle out of your statement, "People don't wear jerseys with the numbers of their favorite hazers on them."

I first heard about this issue on the radio (Friday?) and football was supported 100% by a popular talk-show host. I knew immediately that it had "industry" written all over it. The food industry, that is, because football is a bananza for the fast food industry. And radio earns a lot of money advertising fast food. So it's all connected and "built into American culture and economy at so many levels," as you stated so well. We're on the same page!!

For more information on how this got started, search: "Give some thought to call to ban HS football"


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