A safe and sane solution to Mass Shootings
 

Rep. Gohmert: I Wish to God the Principal Would Have Had an M4 in Her Office Locked Up - YouTube

Let the flames begin

Solutions
 

As long as we believe that people with bad intentions will always be able to get guns (I believe this to be true!), any opposing force present at a trouble location can only help stop perpetrators in their tracks.

I prefer a armed policeman to be outside the one entrance door of my grandkids' schools. Failing that, an armed trained employee in a man-catcher vestibule entryway!

I guess what I saying is why shouldn't there be as much deterence present keeping trouble out of schools as there is in keeping it inside prisons?

I much prefer a law enforcement person being present than having a teacher with a weapon.

let's compare the billions spent on airport security including an armed presence in all airports.

And now think of the frequency of loss of life, since 9/11.

Now enter the thought of how many mass shootings, as the judge stated, have happened in venues known to the killers, to be gun free.

With or without gun legislation/control/restriction/what ever makes you happy....the killers, sane or insane or in between, will always find a way to be armed with "something" to accomplish their need to murder the innocents.

An armed presence in some form...any form...for the protection of those inside the school walls is no more unreasonable an expectation than the expectation that you can fly fear free and safe.

Politicians and special interest groups are once again fired up to "do something". Just as they have said after each and every shooting in many, many, MANY years.

The words do not nothing except play to the emotions of the moment....just like most political rehetoric.

Obama told the families last night that this has to stop and something will be done.

Let's hope he and all the other politicians will do better than just words. Ask the folks on Statten Island how things went after the politicians said...we are going to eliminate the red tape to get you what you need ASAP....most residents as late as last Friday were still waiting and said the red tape is much worse now than "before".

A political broo-hah and all the red herrings and all the special interests lobbying IS NOT GOPING TO GET THE JOB DONE.

What the judge proposes can be decided at the local level and at least opens the door for REAL actions with the potential victims, like frequent flyers, can have some assurance of safety.

btk

Graciegirl, I concur. Schools should not be like airplanes with undercover Air Marshalls on them.

I do not believe many teachers would be able to shoot a gun with an accuracy while they are also being shot at. They would also have to worry about hitting one of the kids with a richochet.

Police or volunteer soldiers would be better.

Putting a cop in every school may sound like a good idea but................what prevents it in becoming a rent-a-cop kind of job?? See mall cops.

Just wondering why we did not have law enforcement in schools "back in the day" ?

Anyone can be trained do you think Police are born marksman.

Read on:

The U.S. Should Emulate Israel's Gun Culture – Tablet Magazine

Yes but I was a teacher. I want nothing to do with guns. I am sure that many people are like me. It just doesn't seem like it should be part of the job description. I think it would discourage a lot of good people.

I think they said Lanza broke a window on a locked door in order to gain entry. Why don't they at least start improving security by installing doors that can't be broken into. They need to start somewhere and that would be a good first step.

Okay... Okay. I agree, I agree, with both of you. And there are other issues--we have shut down help for the mentally ill, and we have gone nuts (NRA--sorry, but IMO) over freedom to bear arms. How many more people have to be killed? How many????????

Statistics have shown that citizens with guns, when confronted with this type of situation, either will not shoot or will shoot the wrong person. If we can't stop the supplying of guns and lethal ammunition, there must be trained security with guns and the willingness to defend at our schools.

But still... that doesn't protect people in McDonalds or in malls or walking around universities, or... ? Gun availability and mental health care--those should be the priority. IMHO

Please, no politics and distracting issues. Concentrate on simple reality.

Why is it so hard to understand that the presence of more guns directly results in more violence?

Why is it so hard to understand that the more sophisticated weapons are, the higher the toll of damage to humans and property.

Ever since weapons were invented, and then when people started counting violent incidents anywhere in the world, the above questions have been answered clearly and with unanimous, overwhelming evidence. That's right! Studies which NEVER vary in their conclusions!

So why is it so hard to understand that a reduction of the number and sophistication of weapons will absolutely reduce violence?

I totally agree with you, but your comments themselves are political, in that various political groups will try to refute. I don't believe it is possible to keep politics out of this issue. And in my opinion, politics needs to be in this issue, because the politicians are the ones who can curb the accessibility of firearms. Thank you for your comments.

Let us pray for all these children and their families, and for the political discussion that hopefully will lead to better gun control laws.

No, facts are not political. They can only be changed by new information. There has never been any new information about the effects of weapons. Self-interested politicos can only hope to obscure facts or lie about them. If they want to say that 2+2=5, they can, sometimes do, and some actually believe what they say.

These awful deaths cannot be changed. But the best thing that could happen would be that the conviction and emotional resolve so many more people feel this week could expose the lies and distractions of the self interests. Let's give those 26 innocent victims the respect and power it takes to finally change our weapons laws in their memory.

Need the stats
 

Please reference your source for these statistics.... Thanks

Also, I don't remember hearing of any of these mass murder shooters being NRA members.....Were any???
_

IMO, we now live in a society where there are little consequesces for ones's anti-social actions. We see it all the time; no discipline, no punishment and no being "responsible for one's actions!

As mayor of NYC, Rudy Guilani was a stickler for inforcing the "little" infractions, as allowing these to go unchecked emboldened individuals on to "larger" mis-actions.

The slipery slope has turned into a mud slide!
_

I think we're talking about the same thing. You may have expressed it better. I still believe, however, that somehow we need to lobby against the uber-strong NRA lobby and bring facts into play to sway the politicians. They must find courage to stand up against the NRA.

This may get too political for the Admin. I understand. this may get deleted. But my views on gun control will never change. I do not, and will never, believe the constitution meant we were free to buy bullets that explode in people's bodies.

Ok I dont own a gun but the old saying guns dont kill people I dont care what you say. The big problem or one of them is a lot of the video games that the kids adults or who ever play are based on police and military training videos stop them. Death doesnt mean anything to people heart break they dont understand it. No emotions are present when this happens. Well that is wher I think it starts censorship on TV it cant watch half te crap thats on TV anymore but kids and young adults eat it up and think its real no pain to them. We didnt even have a TV till I was 10 we went oust side and played.

Steve & Deanna
 

Perhaps there should be an alarm inside the front office that alerts police and sounds a siren at the same time, perhaps much like a bank. You may not be able to immediately stop someone that intends harm but it sure as hell will slow the person down and alert teachers to lock the classromm doors.

I don't believe that this thread has gotten political.

So far people have been trying to wrap their heads around this sensless act and present potential ideas on how to end them in the future.

Just because someone presents ideas and opinion that differ from other's opininons and ideas doesn't mean that its an argument.

In days past it was called "civil discourse."

God, we need more civil discourse and maybe some problems might be solved!

I'm looking for the source. I just read it last night or this morning in the New York Times.

As for the shooters being members of the NRA, I believe that is irrevalent. It is the access to guns that the NRA lobby has pushed through that is the problem. You don't have to be a member of the NRA to benefit from their efforts to make guns so accessible.

Here is where I read the statistic, from Gail Collins, NYT columnist:

"Recently the Michigan House of Representatives passed and sent to the governor a bill that, among other things, makes it easy for people to carry concealed weapons in schools. After the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday, a spokesman for House Speaker Jase Bolger said that it might have meant “the difference between life and death for many innocent bystanders.” This is a popular theory of civic self-defense that discounts endless evidence that in a sudden crisis, civilians with guns either fail to respond or respond by firing at the wrong target. "

I will try to substantiate this evidence, but Collins is a very credible journalist.

BTW as a MI resident, I am ashamed of MI legislature and have notified Gov. Snyder I won't be voting for him if he signs this law into effect.

I assume Nancy Lanza had guns in her house.....for personal protection.

How did that work out for her?

More guns, in the schools or anywhere, is NOT the answer.

It's very sad that trying to save little children's lives in the future can't be a non-partisan issue.

When most of us were growing up we went to see Roy Rogers and Gene Autry movies where the good guys always won and instead of shooting and killing the bad guys Roy and Gene shot their gun out of their hand and "wounded " the bad guys. We had cap guns and pretended to be Roy and Gene. I think you already know where I am going with this----movies today have so much violence and killing that most are not acceptable for children to see. Television the same. However, kids get access to video games that are actually worse. Finally, I remember in the western movies of the so called wild west when a marshal or sheriff was hired to "clean up the town" the first law was to give up your gun when you entered the town limits. As you know, we have in recent years gone down the slippery slope of concealed weapons. Instead of taking guns away we are encouraging everybody to arm themselves. Wow! I wonder who is going to "clean up" things now?

I so agree with you.

IMHO you can debate both sides til you are blue in the face and you are going to wind up right back to square one on the guns/no guns issue. There are over 300 million guns in America and gun shows are reporting record sales in recent months. Many of these gun owners are avid believers in the 2nd Amendment and will NEVER relinquish their guns in a civil manner.

Even if an honest citizen's guns are confiscated, criminals will (and have always) found ways to arm themselves!

I'm all for confiscating the violent movies and video games. Perhaps the majority of children are not adversely affected, but they have NO redeeming qualities and there's no way to identify who is at risk and who is not. The harm is not in one game or movie but experts agree that watching these type movies or playing violent video games results in "desensitation" of minds to the point of confusion about what is real and what is not real.

Funding for mental health has been cut many times over the past several years and many troubled people are not being treated. Parents are not able to obtain help until a child commits a crime and most of the time that is too late!

Sorry, but keep on saying - 1) You will NEVER get the guns off the streets,
2) go ahead, add another 200 -300 gun laws - criminals - repeat - CRIMINALS will never obey those laws.

Teach your children respect, not that they are allowed anything they want. Teach them manners and social skills, don't let them get away with anything and everything.

There is way too much complacency today. "Parents" are too busy with many other things to be bothered with parenting !

While I am all for citizen ownership of firearms, I think it is insane to propose that teachers have guns in the schools. Good grief. The chances of them shooting and missing the perp but accidentally shooting other innocent victims are great.....and NOT worth it!

In this school shooting, Lanza should NEVER have been able to break in thru a window or door window without it setting off all kinds of alarms that said "get into full lock-down mode....HIDE". Something was lacking from the new security system or its monitoring and alert features. This is pathetic.

I agree with you on all points. However, you cannot teach a child with asbergers or autism respect. They are mentally disabled. Your points speak to what to teach a normal child, not one with a severe disability.

I do have to question, however, why this mother had these guns in her house with a volatile child living there. She took him out of the school system and home-schooled him because he was not able to work socially within the school system. Children with aspergers can be very emotionally unstable. Yet one report said she took him to target practice with her.

Also... where did these deadly explosive bullets come from? If the mother just had these guns because she enjoyed target practice, why would she have these kinds of bullets? And if she didn't, and the kid obtained them somewhere, where and how?

Just my questions.

Are We The Only Country With This Problem?
 

I'm sure not all asbergers syndrome people are exactly the same.
He seems to have been an extreme case. We know an adult with it and he's just a bit socially inept....but still a good soul.....tries really hard to interact and is extremely helpful to the immediate family. Does try to show respect. Again, they are all different. Many can be brought out of their "shell". It depends.

I also have two autistic neices who are mutes. There is a wide spectrum "under" the autism umbrella. Not all are violent. What I've noticed with mine is that they do not grasp the little things.......they see things in a certain way........but not all the fine details. Hard to explain.

I totally agree with you on the guns in the house, under the same roof with a known problem son. The last thing I'd be doing re home schooling would be target shooting. Unfortunately,her choices led to her own death as well as the senseless death of innocents.

Anyone looking at the photos of those beautiful little angels and not shedding a tear.......is unfeeling..............like the killer was. I've heard he couldn't feel pain. The entire scenario is very sad.

Just take an hour of your time and watch this video.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDivHkQ2GSg]INNOCENTS BETRAYED - The TRUE story of GUN CONTROL WORLDWIDE - (Graphic Images) - YouTube[/ame]

It's graphic and terrible and explains the difference between gun control and people control. Do we really want this to happen here? Think it can't?

Quoted to link will show up.

We are not capable of having a rational discussion in this country today far too many people who emote rather than reason out solutions. Beside which they won't bother to review past or current events to get a better prospective. Clearly there is a global initiative here via the UN and IMHO not in the best interests to a free America

As I understand it, and I am not an expert, just like any other syndromes Asbergers is complex. Autistic people have a wide range of intelligence, those with Asbergers have higher intelligence than the average population. Autism is too a spectrum disorder with some people unable to communicate verbally at all but others can articulate either verbally or non verbally very well. Autism usually effects a persons ability to socialize or interact with others and many people with Autism are tactically defensive and don't like or enjoy the touch of others. I personally have not read of any autistic tendency that was physically harmful to others. Most people severely affected with Autism have a rather flat personality. Some children with Autism are also mildly or severely mentally retarded and some are in the normal range of intelligence and some are gifted. If a child has Autism and is also gifted that is then called Asbergers Syndrome.

We all very well may associate with people who have a slight amount of Autism as it is a spectrum disorder that affects one out of 88 children born, some slightly and some severely. Having Autism does not rule out that a person cannot also have other forms of mental illness.It takes a team of specially trained mental health professionals to make a diagnosis of the type and severity of Austism and of Asbergers.

One person who posts regularly on here has stated on this forum that she has a form of Autism. She is a wonderful person.

Many of us have grandchildren affected with Autism and when the families are told they have Asbergers too they are happy because that is a positive help in that child learning useful things that can make him or her independent. Asbergers is a form of Autism that in my limited knowledge is not associated with violent or murderous behavior.

But as I said before, sadly having one form of cancer doesn't mean you can't also get another form of cancer and that is the same with mental illness.

I am not an expert, just an avid reader.

I do not think anyone is seriously considering banning all guns in America. That would not happen. Hunting and target shooting are sports many enjoy. However, the types of guns such as AR-15's, SKS's, and other assault type rifles, streetsweeper type shotguns, and high capacity magazines do not have a place in the civilian population. They are NOT hunting implements.

I have not shot a gun since target practicing with my grandfather in Reno, NV around 1980. Most who knew me would probably describe me as rather quiet.

I do remember being stuck in a developmentally disabled camp while a pre-elementary student in Wisconsin. My parents claim that this was because I was diagnosed as autistic. I did have to struggle with co-ordination problems all through childhood and still have speech problems when under stress.

I got 4 degrees though one of which was a Law Degree from what that the time was one of the Top Twenty Public Law Schools in the U.S.--the University of Minnesota. (Class of 1989)

A teacher in high school, Mrs. Mitchell at Wooster High School in Reno, NV., saw something in what was a very marginal student and made him read many of the classics like Anna Karenina. The marginal student was me.

I graduated from the University of Nevada, Reno with two BAs with a 3.71 and 3.73 GPA. And did almost as well with MA in Librarianship from the University of Denver. (Class of 1984)

Law school was a real struggle though as I tried to hide my speech problem and was a real misfit with respect to the social gamesmanship that seemed a big part of being a law student. I did find a number of good friends while in law school that got me through by helping me snag a job at the University of Minnesota Law Library as well as to become a Student Director for Legal Assistance to Minnesota Prisoners.

I got side tracked with my passion for helping survivors of violent crimes which was also inspired by Mrs. Mitchell after graduated in 1989 from Law School. That was through a tragedy that happened to her daughter Michelle while I was in her English class at Wooster High School in Reno, NV. Her daughter Michelle was murdered on my birthday of 2-24 in 1976 by three or four conspirators who tried to make it look like a serial killer was terrorizing Reno so that they could collect on a life insurance policy interest they had in another woman they murdered in February 1976. Michelle was a random victim.

I was introduced as the cataloger of all the WESTLAW computer files at a Law Library convention in Reno, Nevada in the Summer of 1989. The fate in the Law Library convention being in Reno, NV kind of seemed like a message. I am deeply religious in outlook so I took it as a sign that I needed to do something to help survivors of crimes get better access to practical information to heal.

There are more than one people on TOTV who have been diagnosed at one time or another as autistic.

Yes to everything you said. Our family member with the Asburgers Syndrome is a member of M.E.N.S.A. and a college graduate.
He's a male and totally non violent; devout Roman Catholic.
So very helpful to the family whenever or wherever he is needed.
Travels alone, lives alone.

Also, as you've said, and as I've read........Autism doesn't necessarily mean mental illness......although a person could have it.....just like anyone of us can have it.

Both the male above......and the two females (two different family lines) come down from a long line of German ancestors in Baaden Baaden Germany. They had familial relatives "in the past" that also had the same symptoms but were not "LABELED" as such. Mostly uncles.

These two "girls" were labeled back in elementary school........and put in a horticulture class. As I've said, hearts of gold............as you've said, flat personalities. One of the sisters, now in their 40's, writes to me all the time and never forgets a new birth as a gift giving occasion, a greeting card for a proper occasion, or good wishes on any occasion......so I'd say she has good manners as well........just cannot speak. That frustrates me no end and if I were closer I would have tried to help.........long story.

We have other young relatives who were so afraid to have their children vaccinated a few years ago due to the belief that something in the vaccines was causing a rash of autistic children to be born........
Perhaps it's just being diagnosed more......but many of the autistics they show on t.v. do speak and can learn.

One of my neices had "angel man" syndrome......when she was little she would run around flapping her arms. I'll look that up again.
But the ones I know were born in the 1960's and the male in 1946.

WE have friends with Downs Syndrome relatives who always say that they were the family's "greatest joy" in their love of everyone and appreciation for the simple things in life........

True mental illness is NOT retardation or a genetic defect. I always thought of my neices as having a form of genetic defect. I plan to do some research on it......soon. I did observe them from babyhood alongside of my little ones.......and they seemed to lag behind in various things..........but it's more the being unable to TALK that urges me to learn more.

Thanks for sharing Gracie.......

In a more perfect world:
1. There would be no graphic violence shown in any form.
2. Gun control legislation would be passed to ban weapons of mass destruction to the general public.
3. Mental Health Clinics would be subsidized properly.
4. People who have severe mental issues would work hard to resolve thier problem in a safe environment in whatever that form would be.
5. Proper medications would be dispensed to those that need them.
6. Programs would be developed to help stuggling people with children that have severe mental health issues.

These problems are complex and have many facets. I do not have the answers but a civil discourse to address these issues should take place for the well being of the general public.

Children have to right to a full life and should be protected form senseless tradgeies.