Another Sad Day Sorry TOTV ers.
 

Gracie I'm sorry, I know you said no sad stories but here we go again. Early this AM in Webster,NY the Fire Department was called to a house fire. Upon arrival a gunmen opened fire and killed 2 firemen and 2 others are in the hospital in guarded condition. The firemen were called off the scene unti the SWAT team evacuated area residents and tried to locate the gunmen.Unfortunately it was several hours later until the firemen were allowed to re-enter the area to fight the fire which by now had spread to 3 other houses and several cars. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families who suffered losses this morning. And to the Brother Firemen RIP my brothers.

My husband retired in January after 32 years as a Firefighter. I worried about him every time he went to work. My heart goes out to the families of these Firefighters and all those who suffered losses.

:shocked:Now we will have to put a Deputy Sheriff on every fire truck. Just thinking.

So sad. :( Thoughts and prayers to all those affected. :pray:

Theses guys were volunteers and one of the deceased Firemen was also a Police Officer. I to was a volunteer and had served 42 years before moving down here. My wife knew I had to answer the alarm but was always glad to see me walk back in the door.

AWFUL. Who does things like this?

Obviously another "crazy" gone violent. Unfortunately, with over 300m now in U.S. and the violence in today's society portrayed by movies, television and video games we can expect these terrible acts. Our prayers and thoughts go out to the families. So sad.

I live about 40 miles from Webster, NY and woke up this morning to the local news report of this tragedy. It has been on the news throughout the day with live cut in broadcasts containing more information as it becomes available. Here is a link to one of the local news stations if you would like more information about the horrible events today. Local news

Please keep all those involved in your thoughts and prayers.

I will pray for all those closely involved.

You will probably see, unfortunately, some copycats of the Sandy Hook School shooting who only see one way out for them. This looks like one of those copycats.

Speechless........

My heartfelt sympathy to all involved. This craziness has to stop.

God Bless them.
 

As the father of a Fireman, I can only imagine the grief felt by the survivors, especially sad on the day before Christmas.

These men are there for us every day, in good weather and bad and knowingly face the dangers of fires. It's doublely tragic that they lost their lives, not in a fire, but at the hands of another lunitic.

God Bless the men, their families and the community!!

What's worse is that this moron set the fire himself to trap the firemen.

It turns out that in 1980 he killed his 92 year old grandmother with a hammer and was paroled in 1998. Why?

How is it someone gets paroled after killing their grandmother with a hammer? AND then gets a gun?

Answer: Illegally. Maybe they should pass a law that prohibits convicted felons from owning a firearm. Oh wait, there is already one. As they say "...only criminals will have guns".

Perhaps he bought the gun at a gun show where no background check was required nor conducted. Or he might have stolen the gun from a careless legal gun owner. In any case: GUNS OR TOO PLENTIFUL AND EASY TO ACQUIRE. More stronger Gun Control.

On this morning's news from Orlando it showed a picture of a car hit by bullets as it was driving down the interstate. The driver was hit but not killed.

On Christmas.

Something has to change quickly. They say only good guys should have guns. How do you know WHO the good guy is anymore??

Just a guess, I think killing his 92 year old grandmother by bashing her head in with a hammer might be a clue that he should not be on the "good guy" list.

Maybe we should put all these wannabe nut job killers in uniform put them on the front line and bring our troops home. Then they can shoot and kill as many people as they want our jails won't be as crowded,our schools and our neighborhoods will be safer. JMO

IMHO - THAT is a big part of the problem
As you stated Patty - WHY WAS THIS MORON LET OUT?

Now THAT is what I call thinking outside the box.

Have you ever been to a gun show? Do you know what the legal requirements are for the sale of a firearm? I get relly tired of reading about "clips" , "automatic weapons", " gun show loop holes".

The same laws apply apply at gun shows as apply to the private sale of all firearms. And "clips" are not the same as a magazines and automatic weapons are not available to the general public. As I said is my original post, the convicted murder obtained the firearms he used ILLEGALLY. Pass another law, or two, or three, you are only deluding yourself if you think you'll be any safer. Maybe if they would have executed this nut when they had the opportunity those firemen would still be alive.

The question, however, how do we identify problem people? They don't have a sign on their foreheads. And I agree with others, judges must keep dangerous people locked up. Will changing the amendment keep the loonies from purchasing weapons? And this man on his crime with his grandmother used a hammer, not a gun.

Where does it all start? Where does it all end?

This seems to explain it well..
Gun Show Loophole Frequently Asked Questions

What is a gun show?

Gun shows are temporary markets for guns and ammunition, usually held at meeting halls or fairgrounds. Unlike gun stores, both federally licensed dealers and unlicensed sellers can sell guns.

In 1998, over 4,400 gun shows were conducted around the country. 478 were held in Texas alone.1 The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) estimates on average 2,500 – 5,000 gun shows are held annually. In general, between 25% to 50% of sellers are not licensed dealers.2 The access to anonymous sales and the availability of large numbers of secondhand guns makes gun shows attractive to criminals and other prohibited purchasers. A federal study found that 10% of guns used in crime by juveniles were sold either at a gun show or a flea market, and in 1999, gun shows were associated with approximately 26,000 firearms used in crime.3, 4

What is the difference between a licensed dealer and an unlicensed seller?

Federal Firearm Licensees (FFL's) are individuals "engaged in the business" of selling guns and are required to register with and be licensed by the US government. They are also required to conduct instant criminal background checks on all gun buyers -and are prohibited from selling guns to convicted felons, domestic abusers, and juveniles.

Unlicensed sellers are people who may sell a small or large amount of guns but do not (or are not supposed to) earn their livelihood from firearm sales. These sellers do not have to conduct criminal background checks on gun sales. Unlicensed sellers may sell guns at gun shows, out of their homes, or even over the Internet.

What is the "gun show loophole"?

The Gun Control Act of 1968 requires anyone engaged in the business of selling guns to have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) and keep a record of their sales. However, this law does not cover all gun sellers. If a supplier is selling from his or her private collection and the principal objective is not to make a profit, the seller is not "engaged in the business" and is not required to have a license. Because they are unlicensed, these sellers are not required to keep records of sales and are not required to perform background checks on potential buyers, even those prohibited from purchasing guns by the Gun Control Act. The gun show loophole refers to the fact that prohibited purchasers can avoid required background checks by seeking out these unlicensed sellers at gun shows.

Why is it important to get rid of the gun show loophole?

The gun show loophole makes it very easy for guns to fall into the hands of prohibited individuals, including criminals and juveniles. Closing the loophole would put a barrier between the legal and illegal markets for guns. It is more difficult for law enforcement to trace firearms sold on the secondary market. Second-hand firearms typically have left the possession of a licensed dealer, where records are kept, and reached the hands of an unlicensed seller, who is not required to keep records.

How can we close the gun show loophole?

It's simple. Closing the dangerous loophole merely requires unlicensed gun sellers at gun shows to conduct the same instant background checks that licensed dealers must conduct.

Do background checks work?

Yes. Since 1994, the Brady Act has prevented more than 1.3 million criminals and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. The law also has a deterrent effect—felons, domestic abusers and other prohibited purchasers are less likely to try to buy guns when they know comprehensive background check requirements are in place.

Can't we just enforce existing laws instead of passing new ones?

In order to enforce existing laws, we must give police the tools they need to do so - and the criminal background check is one of the most effective tools we can give them to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. The current law barring sales to prohibited buyers such as convicted felons or fugitives from justice cannot be enforced effectively unless sellers are required to verify that their buyers are not in a prohibited category.

If we want to better enforce existing laws, we need to do everything possible to prevent guns from falling into the hands of criminals - and that means conducting background checks on all sales at guns shows, the second largest source for crime guns.

Won't closing the gun show loophole violate the Second Amendment?

No. No matter what your interpretation of the Second Amendment is, it is illegal for criminals and youth to get guns, and federal law already requires background checks for sales by licensed dealers. We need background checks at guns shows to protect law-abiding citizens while keeping guns out of the hands of those prohibited from owning them.

Won't requiring background checks on all sales at gun shows be a bureaucratic nightmare?

Closing the gun show loophole would merely involve unlicensed gun sellers at gun shows implementing that same system. More than 95% of background checks are completed within two hours, and most are completed in just two minutes.

Will closing the gun show loophole put gun shows out of business?

No. Three of the five states that host the most gun shows - Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California - closed the gun show loophole years ago, and gun shows continue to thrive.

Which states have closed the gun show loophole?

Only six states (California, Colorado, Illinois, New York, Oregon and Rhode Island) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows, including sales by unlicensed dealers. Three more states (Connecticut, Maryland and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Eight other states (Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, Nebraska and North Carolina) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the gun show loophole.

In two states, voters themselves closed the loophole when their legislatures refused to do so. On November 7, 2000, the citizens of Colorado overwhelmingly voted 70% – 30% in favor of Amendment 22, closing the gun show loophole in their state. The referendum followed the tragic shooting at Columbine High School on April 20, 1999 (the guns used in the shooting were purchased from private sellers at Denver gun shows). In Oregon, voters also voted overwhelmingly, 62% – 38%, in favor of Measure 5, effectively closing the gun show loophole in their state.


If someone wants to rid themselves of their private firearms, it is harder to find a buyer privately rather than go to a gun show where all the customers are located. I imagine many sellers go as private individuals when in reality they are dealers.

Please let us know if you see anything in the above that is not factual. I just copied form a website to eliminate confusion.

It no "harder" to find a buyer for a firearm on the open market than at a gun show, in fact many times it is easier. When one advertises a firearm for sale on a gun forum website, web auction, or local paper he is trying to attract a buyer that is interested in that particular weapon. You can take that same firearm to a gunshow and not find a buyer as their may be little interest by those attending in that specific firearm. More people visit gun auction websites and gun forum websites that offer gun listings than could possibly attend even the largest local gun show.

It is illegal for a "gun dealer" to represent himself as a private citizen at a gun show when he is selling from his business inventory. Why woud he even want to? What does he have to gain? Nothing. He will lose his business, be fined and/or serve jail time if he is caught.

No one is going to have their minds changed with quotes.
 

I think that this thread was originally talking about the firefighters who were killed in upstate New York.

I can't imagine the image of their families and homes on this day of all days.

For this to be planned is beyond my ability to understand.

Whether they were killed with guns or knives or beat upon with sticks, someone killed these innocent people on a mission to save lives and they were volunteers.

There is no place in hell hot enough for someone who would do a thing like that.


Something has got to be fixed here in this country. Maybe illegal drugs would be somewhere near the top of MY list along with a LOT of other things too.

reread and added. I didn't mean to sound so pompous. I know ALL of you are trying to make sense of this and everyone has their own views and values. We couldn't have grown to this age without them.

If ONLY there were a simple answer.

Christmas hugs to all.

Yes it did get off course. I just realized what the original thread was about.

You always add so much to any thread. Who am I to say it got off course.

If only we villagers, supposedy the older and wiser bunch on this planet, could figure this all out.

Hugs to you Shes. And to your sweet puppy.

"Maybe illegal drugs would be somewhere near the top of MY list....."

Not to worry, we have just begun the road to making them legal all around so nothing to worry about...nobody will be doing anything illegal..it will be all legal. Just takes time !!! Our direction in this area as well as others is now carved in stone !

:agree::agree: I can't understand why this is so hard for some to comprehend.

So often a thread starts in one place and takes on a life of its own. Sometimes it's good to have someone pull on the reins and get us back on track :)

MC2U2