Pool or No Pool...Design Appt Fast Approaching
 

Hi Fellow Friends and Neighbors,

We are moving from San Diego to The Villages in the next 3-5 months (we are building a Seabrook in the Pinellas section).

We have a pool currently in San Diego, with solar heat, and are wonding what type of utility bills we can expect, IF we decide to do a pool again in our new home.

Typically, our electric/gas bill runs about $350 per month, every month. If we have to run the air or heat, then it quickly jumps well into the $450 range.

I am wondering if anyone knows what the expected increase in utility bills are for a home WITH AND WITHOUT a pool. Also, any thoughts on what T & D charges for a basic pool/spa (nothing fancy) with birdcage? $50K? $75K? I know that when we built our new pool/spa in San Diego, you could not get ANY type of pool built for under $75,000. Solar was an additional $7000 and it truly only works OK in the summer (and we have a true southern exposure backyard, currently).

My husband, Tom, will be retiring from the San Diego Police Dept. and is excited beyond belief, to soon get to, "Live The Dream" with all of his new Villager friends!

Any and ALL pool/spa feedback most welcomed! Including thoughts on NOT using T & D during the home building process and going with an outside pool construction company after closing (does this save you any $$ on property taxes if the pool is not in your original sales contract?).

Thanks again!

Angie in San Diego (for now!!)
:duck:

We had a pool for 30 years up north and chose not to build one here because access to pools in the neighborhoods was abundant. I do have a neighbor here who regrets putting it in. They are not here year round though. She said her electric bill increased by $400 to heat it last January. If you are not a very social person you may not feel comfortable at the neighborhood pools. To each his own.

Not sure about now.............however, when we lived in Florida (twice before) we were amazed at how LOW the electric bills were compared to up north.

We've already decided that when the time is right for us, if we can't find a resale with a pool / birdcage, we will make sure we find a home that has "room for a pool" and will have one installed. We always had an inground pool up north when we were raising our family and it's very nice when you have guests, whether family or friends.....visiting. It's nice to have the sliders right off the master bedroom to the pool area and also, of course, from the living room or great room area out to the pool area.

It also creates a great visual as you enter the home and can see through the great room out to the lanai / pool / birdcage area.

To us, it would be a central part of living in Florida.......so I would vote yes. Go for it. We received casual quotes and the prices were not as high as you have experienced elsewhere. Nothing at all even close to that.

When we rented a home in The Villages, the inground pool was a major plus and enjoyed by us, even if just sitting outside and reading on our kindles.......it was pleasant to just have it there......and listen to the waterfall...........and especially nice when our adult children and grandbaby visited over Thanksgiving weekend........it just adds to the pleasure of your new home.

Good luck...........

p.s. When we had returned home to Vermont, the owner of the home sent back our security deposit in full, even though my husband had "upped the temperature" on the heated pool for his own comfort.........it was a minimal rise in the electric bill according to the owner......so we were not penalized. My husband even cleaned the coping while he was floating around; went out and purchased the stuff to do it...........the pool guys would come and vacuum but never really cleaned the pool. He was used to pool ownership and didn't mind..........it gave him something to do.

Most of the monthly "cost" of maintaining a pool is for heat NOT for running the filter pump. We had T&D do a pool and spa....send me a PM or email and I'll send a few pics and share our experience.

Hi Lou and Mary. Bet you are missing the warm weather right about now.
Go for the pool; you won't regret it.
Pumps are variable speed so pretty cost efficient.
Solar runs around 4.5K-5K. Our pool is 16X30 and we did have to add panels because of W. exposure for total of 12.
T&D did a nice job but their weekly pool service has reqd. a few calls to management from myself and a lot of my neighbors. Kid tries to only clean the filter every 3 months rather than monthly and it clogs up.

I have a small pool about 12 X 28 I think. I have solar and gas heat for the pool. I use T&D weekly service to take care of the pool. I have a very accurate way to compare costs as I have a rental home with no pool about the same size as our home with a pool. There is a cost increase with electric, gas, and water. Also at least once a year some maintenance item to handle and painting the pool deck once every couple years. I budget $5000 a year for the pool. So far after 4 years I have never exceeded the budget. Usually actual costs are closer to $4000. Last year was the highest, but needed to replace the pool pump and with the new variable speed motor requirements that alone was $1500. When we are there I keep the pool around 87 degrees. So based on 4 years of cost, increased water bill, increased electric and gas bill, weekly pool service ($22 a week) and occasional maintenance items my 5K annual budget is very safe.

As to cost of pool installation it really depends on what you have. How big, number of water falls, how complicated the integrated falls and landscape is, gas or electric heater, size of birdcage, type of pillars and support structure, how much space your lot has to accommodate the various options, time of year you build it, do you also have a spa, and probably others I have forgot. I have seen costs as low as 25K and as high as over 100K. My guess would be the average for a decent size pool with some of the better options, but not overly extravagant, would be around 50K + or - 5K. Other more recent pool buyers may have more accurate install costs. My operational costs are very accurate, although I am sure there are those who would argue. But then they would argue about most anything.

Hi l2ridehd's,

Just a quick note to say THANKS for the info! That was very helpful and Tom & I really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Warmest Regards,
Angie

U can save a lot $$ if you do it after the build, T&D is not the only show in town.

They are good but most of their installs are very much the same old same old.

Also consider fiberglass they cost about half of concrete and can be built (installed) in a few days.

Average cost 10-15K plus cage.

Lower maintenance, short and long term.
Sun pools and San Juan are both made in FL.

Solar is the only way to go here IMO, about 3-4K, Jacks Solar does most of them.

Thanks!!

Are fiberglass pools able to achieve a similar look to a concrete pool, OR, do they have a distinctively different look to a concrete pool? I just wouldn't want to spend $$$ on this Premier Home and then, get killed down the road, if we had to sell, by having what some might perceive as a 'cheap' pool. Not saying that is the case, just asking (we don't have anything but concrete pools in San Diego, so this fiberglass info is totally new to me).

Thanks for the Jack's solar info. To have a warm pool is a must and I am glad to hear that solar is working great for most folks.

Angie

Solar works best if you select the correct home orientation to the sun.......

The lanai should generally face south.

Also a solar cover is big help but get one on roller.

AS far the look I can tell that they are virtually the same if fact hard to tell.

Same decks, (concrete or pavers) coping, steps all that stuff.

Just saw a glass pool at the end of Defoe with pavers it IMO is the nicest looking pool here. The pool was made in a dark blu color looks like a lagoon.

I have seen others white that during the day look blue from the sky, pretty amazing.

You can also add a waterline tile.

Oh one note on Jacks, he runs the pipes to the pump along the roof without concealing them well......in a more professional way.

He said folks don't want to pay the extra labor for that type of install.

I disagree, in fact mine will be concealed.

As for saving on your tax bill by building after market, it won't help. They have to file the building permits and they get you there :)

But on the permit they ask the cost of construction.........hello!!

I like having my own pool. We have been here almost 13 years. We are in our second home. We put a pool in both of our homes and have solar heat. Can't tell you about the cost as we put this pool in 9 years ago.
We used T & D to do our pool. They are great !

You may save a little money from getting the pool cost lower but you will not avoid taxes by doing it after build. Hello! :)

Sorry, what I was trying to say is if you spend 75K during the build and 25K as an addon based on construction cost the tax should be lower.

I would also guess that additional tax won't kick in until the following year.

But then again the taxes R so low not a big deal especially if U take the 50K homestead exemption.

The homestead exemption is only $500. :(
BTW: I was trying to say, not successfully, that you cannot escape the tax issue entirely. You will have to pay something. Wow!!! Do you think you can build the $75 pool for $25? I am in awe.

Try 12K, with pergola

We had ours built right after we closed. It was cheaper.

You are building a pool with birdcage for $12,000????? How big is the pool? I am having a heart attack.

10x20 or 8x18, excluding the spa which I already have

...

Angie, your welcome. I found my spread sheet with the annual cost. These are the average for 4 years with our rental home average costs deducted from each cost to try to get close to what was the incremental cost for the pool. Example, if our electric bill is $140 and rental home is $90, I attribute $50 that month for the pool.

T&D weekly maintenance $1170 a year
Electric difference due to pool pump, $325 for the year.
Gas for pool heater. Dec, Jan and Feb mostly. $875 for the year, but I keep mine pretty warm in the winter.
Water as you need to add a lot every week, $225 for the year
Maintenance, pool pump big expense (two in 4 years, first one was $300, second 3 years later was $1500 do to federal variable speed motor requirement), deck painting, new pool light, heater service call, one solar leak, and probably something I missed. $1275

Total average for 4 years. $3870. I stll budget the $5000 as I am sure at some point there will be another unexpected high cost item.

Jimbo,

Do you have any fiberglass pool contractors that you have heard good things about? We would love to set up a consultation to meet with some pool contractors (other than T & D, since I am guessing they won't even speak the word 'fiberglass'!) when we are out there for our design appt. You can PM me if you don't want to post them on TOTV.

Also...thanks for the info on the property taxes. I know that the government will still get the tax money, but I was assuming that since the pool contractor turns in the construction amount, that something would be saved by not going through T & D during the building time, AND having the full amount go onto my purchase contract (which in turn, goes directly to the County Tax Assessor's office).

Wish I could see that masterpiece on Dafoe.... Sounds like a beauty!!

Thanks again!! You've given me new hope that I might be able to have a pool and not deplete my savings to do so

Angie

Thank you, AGAIN!! You are so helpful! In addition to me and my parents who are building homes in The Villages, some other friends of ours (also growing weary of CA and need to move out to somewhere that makes more sense!) are seriously wanting to know the pros and cons of a pool.... Your info will really help them.

I hope to be able to pay back the favor, one day!

Angie

Pool
 

T&D did a fiberglass pool for my friends, after construction of the house-no problem. That was 3 years ago.

That's great news! I will definitely speak with T & D and see what they have to say about a fiberglass pool...

Also....official stupid question for the day... With a fiberglass pool, can you also have a spa? I am assuming YES, but just wanted to get my dumb questions out of the way early on! :o

Thanks again!
Angie

Home pools are not usually large enough to swim in. We decided to get an in ground spa since we will mostly just enjoy the water and jets anyways. We can use the neighborhood pool for swiming. Just about anything you add to your home can be done less expensive after closing. The question is do you want to put up with the noise, dirt and annoyance. Building a pool after closing will surely destroy a lot of landscaping that will need to be repaired as well. I believe most people get pools for the look and feel of the home rather than usefulness for swimming. The comparison of cement and fiberglass is laid out well here:

Fiberglass vs Vinyl Pools, Fiberglass compared to Vinyl Pools

Angie, t&d does in fact install glass, I will guess the highest cost, but get a bid.

they use the pools from Sun Pools in Brooksville, that's who's pool I'm buying direct.

Call them for a bid or get local installers from them to bid.

Try San Juan,

If you work one against the other you should get a fair price.

Now the guys that install the pool do not need to be the same as the deck or the bird cage, I get three separate sets of bids.


All Island is very anti glass, don't bother calling

When we decided to be here full time rather than go the two home route, I knew I wanted a pool. It's wonderful in the summer - so handy to dip in and cool off. Love it in the evenings - after dark. We also have pool parties. Like the look. I don't use it in the winter so have no external heating source. We do have solar panels that work well in the shoulder season. Would definitely do it again.

I think you were suckered on being required to install the variable speed pump. This rule/law if it exists can only be applicable to new installations by pool companies.

I had a pool installed a few years ago with a dual speed pump, which according to the builder was required by the "new" rules to reduce energy consumption (federal variable speed motor requirement?). We never use he low speed option as it is useless. Can't even develop enough head to push water to the top of the roof. Shortly after the install, I wanted a larger pump to increase the flow rate on my open weir overflow from the spa to the pool and told the builder I would accept a single speed 2.5 hp (the pump manufacturer did not make the 2.5 hp pump in a two speed version) in lieu of the existing 2 speed 2 hp pump. They said they could not do because of the "rule" but I was at liberty to buy a single speed and install it my self. I opted to live with the smaller pump, but if it ever fails I will be doing just that.

Variable speed pumps in an of themselves do not save energy but somehow the industry has convinced the regulatory bodies that they do. Good for them as they typically cost 3 to 4 times the cost of an equivalent single speed pump. A more efficient motor/pump combo will save energy, whether it's single speed, dual speed, or variable speed. You can reduce energy consumption if you run the variable speed pump at a low speed but this is because you are pumping less water. You can achieve the same result by running a single speed pump less hours in a day.

In the past year they changed that rule from dual speed to variable speed. Maybe your right, but T&D refused to install a regular pump as they no longer had anything but variable speed motors. So I then called 3 other pool service companies and was told the same thing. In fact was told anything over 1/2 HP which I needed, is not even being manufactured anymore. However there is two SIGNIFICANT advantages to this pump. It has a 4 year vs a one year warranty and it is much much less noisy. I have solar panels on the roof and when the pump starts it runs faster to get the water up there, but after that it slows down and continues to pump through the solar just fine. And this is truly a variable speed pump, vs dual speed.

Maybe they don't save energy, but my electric bill dropped.

And please explain how it can only be applicable to new pools if they no longer make the motors?

I'm looking at an internet site that offers the single speed pump I was referring to earlier. I would post a link but I think its against the totv rules. google "single speed pool pumps" and you can find quite a few.

As for your electric bill dropping, I'll stand by my statement that you are pumping less water so it should drop.

It is less noisy because it runs at a lower speed and pumps less water per hour than the high speed setting.

This law only applies to "new residential swimming pools" not older pools.

Single speed pumps are being made and for sale, Google it

We like the variable pump.
Runs at 85% when solar is called for.
Runs at 60% if sconces and waterfall are on.
Runs at 50% if sconces and waterfalls are off.

the correct way to calculate solar panels the 4x12'

Is as follows, each one needs 4 gmp flow for max efficancy.

so if you have 7 panels you should have a flow rate exiting the roof as 28 gpm.

Call it 30.

There is only one way to know that it not by the % of power or hp or anything other than simple flow rate meter.

this is done by a permanent flow gauge inline on the pipe.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/images/sub...edium/WM10.jpg

I have been using these for over 20 years on aquariums and ponds

Passed in 2011 and went into effect March 15 2012. I read the whole bill and no where did I see new pool vs replacement components for previously installed pools. I called T&D and asked them about this and they said it applies to new and replacement. Of course they do have a vested interest in selling the higher cost replacement motors. Will keep checking. So those single speed pumps can't be used according to Florida law. One company I looked up actually said it would not ship to Florida, California or Hawaii. Others did not say that.

Florida Energy Law requirement, House bill 849 removed the specific
requirements for pools and spas that was originally laid out in law and replaced it with a requirement that pumps, motors, controls, heaters, and portable spas must instead meet the requirements in the Florida Energy & Conservation Code. Therefore, the specifics of what one must meet for pool & spa energy efficiency that were originally laid out in law are now found in the Florida Building Code. Chapter 4 of the 2010 Florida Energy &
Conservation Code provides the specifics, which requires the following:

a. Residential filtration pool pump motors cannot be split-phased, shaded-pole or capacitor start-induction run types.
b. If the total horsepower (HP) of a residential filtration pool pump or filtration pool pump motor is 1/2 HP or larger than the pump and pump motor must have at least two speeds.
c. Residential pool filter pump controls, for use with a multi-speed pump, must be capable of operating at a minimum of two speeds.
d. Default pool filtration speed must be a speed that results in a flow rate that will NOT turnover the pool in less than six hours, and any high speed override must default back to the pool filtration speed in less than 24 hours. This allows solar pool heating systems to run at higher speeds during periods of usable heat gain.
e. Thermal efficiency of gas and oil-fired heaters must not be less than 78%.
f. Heat pump heaters shall have a coefficient of performance at low temperature of not less than 4.0 (COP).
g. Natural and LP gas-fired heaters shall not be equipped with constant burning pilots.
h. All heaters shall have a readily accessible on-off switch that is mounted on the outside

Found the answer on existing pools.

Does the law apply to existing pools and spas? Yes
a. Manufacturers will most likely continue to make single speed pumps and pump motors for non-pool filtration purposes, therefore it is the installers’ responsibility to choose and install a compliant model whenever replacing a pool filter pump or pool filter pump motor.

Found a link to a document from the Florida swimming pool association that explains it in English.

http://www.floridapoolpro.com/indust...0Code%20QA.pdf

Keith, one other point to be mindful of and the need for a flow meter is the pump % can not take into account how your plumbing is done, which dramatically affects the flow rate.

If that flow thru your solar panels is too fast or to slow it can dramatically effect the temperature of your pool.

Just took my first look at this thread and here's my summary for the original poster:

1) Build your pool after you build the house. You will save significant $. If your lot does not have good southern exposure for solar panels, you will pay hundreds more to heat the pool each year.

2) Have T&D build your pool. They will design exactly what you want and build reliably. If their customer backlog is too long, PM me for the name and cell phone of probably their best construction supervisor.

3) Consider building a pool/spa combination. Unless you just have to have a large pool for some reason, consider a small one linked to a spa. It's fabulous to have both and the linked water flow eliminates spa maintenance.

4) Have Jack's do your solar panel job and have him put in as many panels as will fit.

5) l2ridehd's cost figures are the most accurate I've seen. So it looks like a nice pool is well within your budget.

6) If you are going to do your own maintenance, put in a salt chlorinator. If you have the maintenance done, save a grand or so and put in a standard chlorine system.