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-   -   Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it. (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-non-villages-discussion-93/morality-came-first-we-tacked-religion-75797/)

Villages PL 04-22-2013 04:49 PM
Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it.
 
I heard a scientist make the above statement on the radio. Do you think it's true or false?

angiefox10 04-22-2013 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 664450)
I heard a scientist make the above statement on the radio. Do you think it's true or false?

What do YOU think?

Jim 9922 04-22-2013 04:58 PM
Seems more right to just wack your enemy over the head with a rock or club and walk away , than praying to win the war and then bombing them to oblivion just for good measure.

DAWN MARIE 04-22-2013 05:03 PM
Morality is inborn. Religion is learned.

gomoho 04-22-2013 05:30 PM
What came first the chicken or the egg??? Some folks morals are based on their religious beliefs so I would think religion came first; however, I believe empathy may
have come first being an innate trait of human beings.

eremite06 04-22-2013 05:48 PM
Morality first because the bond to family is innate.

ylisa7 04-22-2013 05:51 PM
Morality is how anyone would want to be treated by others. If you don't want it done to you then don't do it to someone else. Simple.

Religion is learned and not always moral.

Justjac 04-22-2013 06:16 PM
The old saying goes:

You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy...not religion.

graciegirl 04-22-2013 06:56 PM
I don't know. There are more questions than answers as I get older. Many more gray areas.

It does seem that people who hold EXTREME religious views are often immoral, no matter what the religion.

Protecting our family comes from instinct or hormones and is probably a form of self preservation.

Caring about others not connected to us is a gift from..................I am pretty sure it is God.

And if that is true, I hope I am doing things right. What we do affects so many others.

None of us walks through life unconnected. We ARE our brothers keepers and I don't know if I know that by instinct or by morality or by religion.

jblum315 04-22-2013 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 664459)
Morality is inborn. Religion is learned.
I disagree. I think both are learned. A 3-year-old child has no moral sense.

duffysmom 04-22-2013 07:13 PM
I believe it 100%. Religion is learned, just ask the religious extremists.

Taltarzac725 04-22-2013 07:24 PM
I recall reading Homer in an Ethics class at the University of Nevada, Reno.
 
Ethics and War in Homer's Iliad

Homer seems to have religion and ethics/morality in his works but they are extremely different from those of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and the other major religions. They seem most to be the morals of a warrior culture and the Gods get into the wars as well.

blueash 04-22-2013 07:27 PM
There are many observations in the animal kingdom of non-human acts of what we anthropomorphize as morality. There is a TED talk with videos showing such behaviors. Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals | Video on TED.com As those who believe that morality is dependent on an understanding or a fear of a god, no matter what the god-concept may be for a particular faith (don't you love the phrase god-fearing as if it were a good thing) then to explain such morality in animals you would have to say that the animals either have an understanding of religion or have an unsullied soul which makes them pure good. I don't think anyone would posit that an animal is pure good. Not even a dog in a restaurant.

DAWN MARIE 04-22-2013 07:29 PM
Yes, religion is learned but God put in each one of us a sense of what is right and wrong deep down. Even a 3 year old knows when he's done wrong...may not stop him from doing so but he knows. Anyone who has had small children can see this as they try to cover up their errors. Sometimes it can be quite comical. What we teach them is discipline and how to discipline themselves from doing wrong. It's much easier to do wrong than right.

blueash 04-22-2013 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jblum315 (Post 664546)
I disagree. I think both are learned. A 3-year-old child has no moral sense.
You might find this interesting

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/ma...anted=all&_r=0

pooh 04-22-2013 07:58 PM
Add this to the mix....our brains may be "hard wired" for religion....
Science Explains Why Our Brains May Be ‘Hardwired’ for God

DougB 04-22-2013 09:39 PM
Not sure if they even are connected. I have met atheist with high morals and very "religious" individuals with little to no morals.

ijusluvit 04-22-2013 09:59 PM
I think there is a God who made this amazing universe and incredible human beings capable of the acting out the most noble moral and the most despicably immoral behavior. This wide range of possible action doesn't make it easy to decide how one should act.

After all of my years of formal religious training I am still not certain of how moral or immoral I have acted. I have just tried to exercise my free will as best I could. I hope I "pass the test". My best hunch is that God wants it just that way - that life is our test and that we have to decide upon and follow our own moral code.

Religion, on the other hand is a purely human invention designed to console and guide us, and sometimes even to distract us when we frighteningly realize our free will makes our life choices OUR responsibility.

villagefriend123 04-22-2013 10:11 PM
As early man began to form larger and larger clans, survival meant cooperation and planning with one another, which was our building blocks to morality.

graciegirl 04-23-2013 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougB (Post 664630)
Not sure if they even are connected. I have met atheist with high morals and very "religious" individuals with little to no morals.
I have too.

I am taken by the Bostonians who stayed inside, following directions, not doing what they planned to do or wanted to do so that the law enforcement community could more easily catch the bombing suspect.

That is an example of moral behavior to me.

Villages PL 04-23-2013 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by angiefox10 (Post 664454)
What do YOU think?
I asked you first.

perrjojo 04-23-2013 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWN MARIE (Post 664565)
Yes, religion is learned but God put in each one of us a sense of what is right and wrong deep down. Even a 3 year old knows when he's done wrong...may not stop him from doing so but he knows. Anyone who has had small children can see this as they try to cover up their errors. Sometimes it can be quite comical. What we teach them is discipline and how to discipline themselves from doing wrong. It's much easier to do wrong than right.
I have to disagree. It is always easier to do right! Doing wrong only complicates ones life!

Villages PL 04-24-2013 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueash (Post 664568)
Thanks for that link, it sure was interesting. It reminds me of when I was a baby. I have memories that go back to before my first birthday, when my mother started feeding me baby-food. I didn't like the pureed vegetables and resisted eating such. So my mother explained that if I ate it, I would then get to enjoy a jar of apple sauce. So, after the explanation, I was okay with eating the pureed vegetables. Even though I wasn't talking yet, I understood every word she said.

When company would come over to visit, I remember them asking: "Are you sure he doesn't understand what we're saying, he looks like he understands".
And both my father and sister (at different times) said, "no, he doesn't understand." So I believe, from my own experience, that babies are a lot smarter than most people give them credit for.

eweissenbach 04-24-2013 02:21 PM
Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 664450)
I heard a scientist make the above statement on the radio. Do you think it's true or false?
This has really caused me to think, and conclude that it fits my view of religion. My OPINION is that the writers of the Old Testament, and probably other books that lay out the tenants of various religions, wrote about what they knew, and tried to lay out the proper ways to live according to their beliefs. For example, they did not know about most modern science, and antiquity, and evolution theory, was unknown to them, thus the world according to them began about 6000 years ago with fully developed humans created by God. I know it is heresy to many to question that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I think the inspriration was from their (the scribes and priests who wrote the old testament) view of how moral persons should behave, and give them a rule book to follow. Obviously some of the rules about food in the OT have been proven to be unnecessary, but given the known "science" of the day it probably made sense for example. Stories were probably either made up or perhaps were passed down through their oral history, which made morality statements. Again as an example, the story of Noah and the Ark; The lesson being that if you are immoral, God is capable and willing to destroy everything on earth, but in order to sustain life, he will command one moral family to gather up a male and female of every species in order to perpetuate life. Logic tells me that this is impossible, but as a morality tale it makes the point. In other words, I think these books of the Old Testament were the Church leaders of the day way to get people to fall in line with their view of morality. Now, if everyone were moral and acted in a moral way, their would be no need of such a moral manual, but as we have seen, that is not the way the world works. Unfortunately many have used the Bible and other religious works, to justify or rationalize some of the most henious acts in history. This is all simply my personal opinion, and I realize that many would disagree, however I am a practicing Christian and believe in my imperfect understanding of Christian morality.

pooh 04-24-2013 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eweissenbach (Post 665692)
Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it.


This has really caused me to think, and conclude that it fits my view of religion. My OPINION is that the writers of the Old Testament, and probably other books that lay out the tenants of various religions, wrote about what they knew, and tried to lay out the proper ways to live according to their beliefs. For example, they did not know about most modern science, and antiquity, and evolution theory, was unknown to them, thus the world according to them began about 6000 years ago with fully developed humans created by God. I know it is heresy to many to question that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I think the inspriration was from their (the scribes and priests who wrote the old testament) view of how moral persons should behave, and give them a rule book to follow. Obviously some of the rules about food in the OT have been proven to be unnecessary, but given the known "science" of the day it probably made sense for example. Stories were probably either made up or perhaps were passed down through their oral history, which made morality statements. Again as an example, the story of Noah and the Ark; The lesson being that if you are immoral, God is capable and willing to destroy everything on earth, but in order to sustain life, he will command one moral family to gather up a male and female of every species in order to perpetuate life. Logic tells me that this is impossible, but as a morality tale it makes the point. In other words, I think these books of the Old Testament were the Church leaders of the day way to get people to fall in line with their view of morality. Now, if everyone were moral and acted in a moral way, their would be no need of such a moral manual, but as we have seen, that is not the way the world works. Unfortunately many have used the Bible and other religious works, to justify or rationalize some of the most henious acts in history. This is all simply my personal opinion, and I realize that many would disagree, however I am a practicing Christian and believe in my imperfect understanding of Christian morality.
Well said, Ed.

Golfingnut 04-24-2013 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jblum315 (Post 664546)
I disagree. I think both are learned. A 3-year-old child has no moral sense.
Ditto. Both are learned and neither one very well now days. You accept moral values as they are logically the right thing to do. Religious values are accepted through fear of retribution from GOD with little regard for what is right.

rubicon 04-24-2013 02:59 PM
The difficulty of answering this question goes to the issue of at point in time are we speaking? Moral behavior in the beginning may not at all resemble moral thinking today. Early man believed that human sacrifaces to the gods were a good thing. I suspect that since human beings are superstitious gods in some form have existed from the beginning and hence some form of religion. I suspect that through man's evolutionary process moral behavior and religion merged. for instance a definition of moral behavior today is "doing the right thing when no one is watching." Primative religious men believed human sacrifaces in private were for the public good in appeasing the gods. Hedondism was acceptable behavior and not thought immoral.
Eskimoes believed it was good manners to share their wives with vistors.

so if the definition of religion and moral behavior is very liberally applied then my view would be religion first owing to man's superstitious nature and then moral behavior as man began to be domesticated

DocM1946 04-24-2013 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 664450)
I heard a scientist make the above statement on the radio. Do you think it's true or false?

Certainly religion doesn't have an exclusive on Morality !!

Monkei 04-24-2013 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Villages PL (Post 664450)
I heard a scientist make the above statement on the radio. Do you think it's true or false?
I think both are separate from the other and one has nothing to do with the other.

There are a ton of non religious people who live a very moral life.

There are a ton of religious people who have not an ounce of morality in their being.

Religion is the biggest threat to the world. Sit back and think about it.

I don't want to use this thread to bash religion ... as much as I want to. But the original post question I think I have answered pretty well.

Monkei 04-24-2013 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eweissenbach (Post 665692)
Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it.


This has really caused me to think, and conclude that it fits my view of religion. My OPINION is that the writers of the Old Testament, and probably other books that lay out the tenants of various religions, wrote about what they knew, and tried to lay out the proper ways to live according to their beliefs. For example, they did not know about most modern science, and antiquity, and evolution theory, was unknown to them, thus the world according to them began about 6000 years ago with fully developed humans created by God. I know it is heresy to many to question that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I think the inspriration was from their (the scribes and priests who wrote the old testament) view of how moral persons should behave, and give them a rule book to follow. Obviously some of the rules about food in the OT have been proven to be unnecessary, but given the known "science" of the day it probably made sense for example. Stories were probably either made up or perhaps were passed down through their oral history, which made morality statements. Again as an example, the story of Noah and the Ark; The lesson being that if you are immoral, God is capable and willing to destroy everything on earth, but in order to sustain life, he will command one moral family to gather up a male and female of every species in order to perpetuate life. Logic tells me that this is impossible, but as a morality tale it makes the point. In other words, I think these books of the Old Testament were the Church leaders of the day way to get people to fall in line with their view of morality. Now, if everyone were moral and acted in a moral way, their would be no need of such a moral manual, but as we have seen, that is not the way the world works. Unfortunately many have used the Bible and other religious works, to justify or rationalize some of the most henious acts in history. This is all simply my personal opinion, and I realize that many would disagree, however I am a practicing Christian and believe in my imperfect understanding of Christian morality.
Very nice Ed.

You know I think that in a lot of ways the Constitution suffers from the same problem. A document based and written by those living in the time they wrote it. Things change.

Golfingnut 04-26-2013 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eweissenbach (Post 665692)
Morality came first and we tacked religion on to it.


This has really caused me to think, and conclude that it fits my view of religion. My OPINION is that the writers of the Old Testament, and probably other books that lay out the tenants of various religions, wrote about what they knew, and tried to lay out the proper ways to live according to their beliefs. For example, they did not know about most modern science, and antiquity, and evolution theory, was unknown to them, thus the world according to them began about 6000 years ago with fully developed humans created by God. I know it is heresy to many to question that the Bible was the inspired word of God, but I think the inspriration was from their (the scribes and priests who wrote the old testament) view of how moral persons should behave, and give them a rule book to follow. Obviously some of the rules about food in the OT have been proven to be unnecessary, but given the known "science" of the day it probably made sense for example. Stories were probably either made up or perhaps were passed down through their oral history, which made morality statements. Again as an example, the story of Noah and the Ark; The lesson being that if you are immoral, God is capable and willing to destroy everything on earth, but in order to sustain life, he will command one moral family to gather up a male and female of every species in order to perpetuate life. Logic tells me that this is impossible, but as a morality tale it makes the point. In other words, I think these books of the Old Testament were the Church leaders of the day way to get people to fall in line with their view of morality. Now, if everyone were moral and acted in a moral way, their would be no need of such a moral manual, but as we have seen, that is not the way the world works. Unfortunately many have used the Bible and other religious works, to justify or rationalize some of the most henious acts in history. This is all simply my personal opinion, and I realize that many would disagree, however I am a practicing Christian and believe in my imperfect understanding of Christian morality.
As perfect of an analysis as I have ever seen.

:BigApplause:


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