Harold's Vision kaput
 

I am becoming more upset with each passing year. When I moved to the Villages, Harold Schwartz was still alive and I had the wonderful privilege of discussing with him, his vision for the Villages community. Basically, Harold wanted the Villages to be a place where persons could enjoy retirement to the absolute fullest and at a very reasonable cost. I truly believe Harold had no desire to become wealthy and money to him was just a way to provide greater enjoyment to the residents. Sadly, I think Harolds's vision has gotten lost somewhere along the way. I just picked up the Country Club Golf Rates , I see the Country Club green fees have increased again this year. For a resident, the 18 hole high season rates now start at $41.00 (Orange Blossom Hills) and top out at $57.00 (Palmer Legends). It can be easily determined that generally, the MOST EXPENSIVE greens fees are right here in the VILLAGES ..and this is if you provide your own golf cart. Please don't respond by telling me how much you were paying for golf in Maine or California, it simply isn't relevant. For example, We would all scream at paying $8.00 for a dozen eggs, and yet that is what people in Alaska pay for eggs.

I agree the rates are high, but what do you think they would be if Harold was calling the shots?

"Free golf for life!"

Skip

Warren - I believe that is a very astute observation. I have been in TV for less than a year and already see the rise in housing costs are pricing some folks out of the market. But this is not a non-profit organization and they will, and have every right to do so, get as many bucks for whatever the market will bear. That is a fact of life today and guess we should be glad Harold didn't hang around long enough to see it!

Sorry you're upset, but let's be realistic here. Harold did have a desire to do well financially, and he knew he'd have to do well to pay for the original infrastructure, which included the golf cart bridge, Spanish Springs and the first three Villages. I don't know how he convinced himself he could stay afloat until he could really start selling houses. I don't know how he convinced contractors like Rainey to do serious work with deferred pay. I don't know how he convinced his son Gary to leave successful business dealings in Michigan and join him, bringing the rest of the family along as well. My wild guess was that everyone thought there was a good chance they would make a good profit. Yes, most of the original Villages have more modest "middle class" homes, but very soon the buying customers came wanting more. I'm convinced that Harold Swartz would have been the last person to deny people the bigger, fancier homes they said they wanted.

To this day, The Villages is still affordable to most of the retired middle class. It is more pricey than many other middle class retirement communities, but the lifestyle is superior as well. I'll bet that's why you moved here.

You're right, it's about $5 more to play primetime golf here compared to similar quality courses in the area. We benefit from that situation because the outside courses have to undersell TV courses. But I don't know ANY place in the country where you can play a Villages quality course during primetime for less than the prices in our area. Prices here have crept up regularly, but costs have as well. The bottom line is that those changes are in line with what has happened throughout the country in the last ten years. None of us like to pay a little more for the things we buy, but look what we've been able to buy!

I think what you are seeing is simply a response to the market. Where a lot of the original villages south of 441 appealed to people looking for small ranches and villas, there are enough people with substantially more money that realize how great the concept is, and the developer is responding with more large designers and premiere homes.

Good answer!:icon_wink:

Harold Schwartz's vision was to build a hometown with everything a retiree could want in that town, and his son, Gary Morse, helped him realize that dream.

Look at the town he created where you have a town square, churches, bowling alleys, recreation centers, country clubs, golf courses, a hospital, softball fields, a woodworking shop, RV parking, several grocery stores, drug stores, furniture stores, many restaurants...just about everything you can think of.

Compare that with what the younger generation is building today which is houses and more houses, with golf, country clubs, recreation centers, and basic infrastructure and not much more.

The people that are paying the most money for houses and lots are getting the least, IMO.

I love this place, I truly do. But I don't believe we are getting quality golf for the price. I play a lot of golf, and play most of it right here. For most of the busy season the championship courses are collecting about $180.00 every 15 minutes, or $720 an hour. Multiply that by 10 courses and that's $7200.00 an hour. Yet, I spend most of my time hitting irons or chipping from hard pan due to the lack of grass. The greens have been in fair to poor condition. Now, all that being said, it really is supply and demand. Even with the conditions I've described, the courses are operating at max capacity. I also readily admit that my expertise does not include knowledge of the costs to run a golf course. Maybe when you have about a zillion people walking all over your golf course every day that its a miracle that they keep the courses as good as they do.

Well, I was paying $12.00 at TDS in 1997 for 18 holes. I recall Harold using the term "play golf for $1.00 per hole.

That was 16 years ago, Warren...alas, prices for everything have gone up quite a bit since then.

Warren, I think you have some valid points. I do believe that some of the fees and practices that Mark Morse has implemented would seriously upset and anger Mr. Schwartz. There does seem to be less "bang for the buck." There is a tremendous of nickel and diming of residents, especially new residents.

Businesses have a hard time succeeding in the town squares -- the developer's rent makes it very hard for them to make a profit. More and more of the services previously offered by the developer are now being run by former employees and not for the better (think of the Squares' entertainment). For now, Brownwood has little that isn't TV-owned. LSL started with a lot of businesses jumping to be part of the grand opening.

I agree that Harold Schwartz's original vision (from what I understand it was) has gone by the wayside for the sake of profit. When I first moved here, not every club had a fee to join; classes were much cheaper; and so on and so forth.

I've talked to residents who moved here when Mr. Schwartz was still alive and wandering around Orange Blossom and Silver Springs. I've spoken with others who moved here shortly after he died. If something happened that they couldn't close in time, TV would extend closing date; the interest rates weren't .25% higher than surrounding banks; Neighborhood Watch would check your home for you free if you went out of town; and so on and so forth. It really does sound a different attitude has taken over.

I do believe that Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit (heck, he'd gone bankrupt twice trying to do this) and I'm positive that Gary Morse would never have moved here had he not thought a reasonable profit could be made. But I'm not convinced that this level of profit-making (or the means used to get there) was ever considered by either of them.

Needing to Undersell the Villages isn't valid unless you only use examples near the Villages. My research was mainly within a 25 mile radius, but you will find courses all the way to Sebring that cost less than the Villages and these courses certainly do not compete with the Villages courses. Also by using the CDD regulations, the Developer was able to build most of the infastructure without using his funds. This is where the seling of bonds came into play. I also remember Harold Schwartz saying that the Villages would be like a big family. I wish some of my family members would treat me a little better.

ijustluvit, you write a well thought thru post and and I appreciate and respect those thoughts. I am going to guess that you are a very nice person.

Golf for $1 hole, bread for $.40 a loaf. Sorry everything has gone up. I doubt the courses could be maintained with revenue of $12 a round.
The horse and buggy were put away in the barn a long time ago!

warren - how much do you think you should be paying? and do you think that amount paid by you and all of the other golfers would be sufficient to support the maintenance and management of the golf course and pro shop year round as well as provide a reasonable profit to the developer? or maybe you don't care about that...hard to tell.

Agreed wholeheartedly
:agree:

so what it is about human nature that some people always need something to complain about?

Inflation Rate
 

If Warren (or anyone else for that matter) was paying $1.00 per hole at Tierra del Sol in 1997, he should be paying $1.45 per hole today based on the rate of inflation since then. For 18 holes, he should be paying $26.10 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol in January 2013 and probably something like $26.50 in January 2014.

Based on the prices announced for winter 2013/2014, a resident member will pay $48.00 for 18 holes at Tierra del Sol. A priority member will be paying $33.00 for 18.

While it's true that everything costs more today than it did in 1997, that's a pretty significant increase.

On the other hand, the price of gasoline has risen by 280% in Florida since January 1997. So $1.00 of gas in 1997 costs $2.80 in January 2013. If one applied the gasoline inflation rate to golf, 18 holes at Tierra del Sol would now cost $50.40 - slightly more than the expected cost in the winter of 2013/2014.

If we applied the gasoline inflation rate to everything, none of us could afford to live in The Villages or pretty much anywhere else if we're living on a fixed income.

Warren is definitely on to something.

Personally, I don't agree......there are many other factors that contribute to increased costs....gasoline prices, equipment purchases, repairs, increased cost of irrigation, increased salaries, taxes, insurance, workman' comp., etc. There are many more courses than when Harold was around, much more use of the courses, more time needed to care for and maintain courses and so on and so on.

We all may feel the pinch these days, everything costs more than it did years ago. Years ago we were still complaining that prices were higher than in previous times.....probably going to be a song we'll all be singing, just as those who came before us did...;). It's frustrating....less bang for your buck.....just look at what groceries cost....it's not just recreation costs and it's not just here.

Surely you realize the golf courses serve a single purpose and that purpose was to sell homes. It was true 16 years ago and is true today. I cannot think of many things that have quadrupled in price in 16 years. OK maybe gasoline, but that is like apples and oranges.

No one forces any business to rent at the squares. NO ONE. If they fail it is because they are not selling something someone wants or enough of it to meet expenses. PERIOD. NO one is forced to use the banks. AND they aren't National Banks, They are only HERE. They have so many closings that knowing people who don't care they would be switching closings all of the time IF there wasn't a penalty for doing so. No one in this country has as many closings as The Villages does right now.

I think what is called greed by some is just common every day business practice and if you have not worked in that environment, if you have spent your life in government work or in education than it is unfamiliar. There are many of us who have worked in situations where financial goals are set and sales managers manage. That is called business and free enterprise. If our government would follow some of the practices used here we wouldn't have some of the trouble we are having.

AND YES Harold Schwartz wanted to make a profit. You pay your workers and your expenses and buy equipment and feed your own family with the profit. AND if you do it well you make a BIG profit and that employs more people and buys more equipment and opens more places to eat and keeps the economy running.

:popcorn:

When i read your post it sounded word for word what i have always thought. It comes down to supply and demand. I have priority because my wife golfs also and when i do the numbers i break even plus get a better chance in the high season of getting my desired time and course and go to the pools once in a while. As for course conditions in the last few weeks golfed celebration in disney and dell webb. Courses were green with nice grass in rough and fairways. Both places talked to employees who used to work in the villages. They need to water more to get better conditions was their answer. I know sometimes we have restrictions but we don't right now. Also they could punp more from some of the ponds but like the one on baily trail by cane carden, they want that one to look nice for the people driving by. All of this said i can jump in my golf cart during the summer, play at arnold palmer for 6 bucks at twilight and get a 6 dollar burger and fries.:MOJE_whot:

Perhaps the explanation lies in the fact that a decision was made several years ago that the championship courses (which are privately owned, by the way) had to be self-sufficient. This implies that they, and the greens fees they charged, were in some way subsidized by the developer as a means to attract buyers for the homes. Once that decision was made, all the costs had to be covered by the fees charged. So, maintenance, insurance, administrative costs, repairs to the clubhouse and restaurant, taxes, range balls, golf carts, salaries, etc. had to be included in determining a greens fee that would cover expenses and make a profit.

I've spoken to people who travel off campus during the high season to take advantage of lower fees. But, when adding the price of gas for the trip, the time spent getting there and back, and using a rental cart that doesn't have the amenities their own cart offers, are they really saving much? So, I think that in some ways we pay for the convenience of having the courses golf cart accessible in our community.

I'm not insensitive to those that moved here with a retirement income that was sufficient at the time but is far less so now. Back in CA we passes Prop 13 in part because people were losing their homes because property taxes were eating up most of their retirement income. Here we've seen growth accompanied by younger retirees with substantial funds at their disposal so the costs of recreation are not a deterrent. And we have vacationers who want to have a good time without too much regard for the cost. I think if the golf fees were too far out of line, play would drop and the powers that be would have to re-evaluate the fee structure. Or would they then just sell the courses to an operator who could make them completely public??? Be careful what you wish for.

It doesn't have to be one thing, Warren, it's the total of "things" that result in increases. Whether you agree or not, everything costs more today than it did when this community was built. Think about the increases you've seen in your own personal expenses. Why doesn't the water or power company just absorb the additional costs of operations so we, the consumers, don't have to suffer an increase in costs?

Golf was an attraction initially and still is a game for many, but today's retiree is younger, more active and wants to stay busy and fit. There are many other activities besides golf here that attract people to TV.

the urban legend that TV rents for commercial establishments is the reason businesses have a hard time being profitable.

Each of the businesses that have signed a lease with TV knew and understood what the rent would be for thier contracted 5 or 10 year lease. When they signed they knew, or should have known what it takes to make a profit.

Most that have failed or moved on was not due to the rent. It was due to the fact they over estimated what they thought they could sell. Or they did not provide the elements of the business magic formula...value, service, quality, response, a product or service TV needs/wants.

When they do fail or close down, it is much easier for the owner to blame it on the rent....than to give the real reasons for not making their vision happen.

The rents TV charges for commercial space is very competitive with most high value shopping areas and retail centers.

The other variable that many are not prepared to deal with is....owning and operating is hard work and long hours.

The above is slightly off topic but related.

We can all talk about the past like a 4 bedroom Georgian colonial two story on a half acre lot .....2700 square feet...two car garage...corian counters...etc....$49,000.....new built....early 1970. That house just sold last year for over $300,000.

TV is simply following (I should say leading) the market and dealing with supply and demand. Do some of you remember when TV could not build enough fast enough? Around 2005/6 when houses were sold lottery style? When one like you wanted came available you got a call and they gave you 72 hours to "take it or leave it"? Those days are coming back.

There is no surprise in the increasing values here in TV....none at all.
There is no surprise in the increasing cost of goods going up....it has been going on all our lives.
There are no disappointed new buyers at what ever the price was yesterday.

Those who are disappointed are the ones who lament how it used to be...like my $49,000 Georgian Colonial!!!

TV will continue to grow and prosper at what ever the market will bear!

btk

The longer we live, the more expensive everything looks. The reality is that preparation for retirement is very important. I remember when my cabe bill was $12.00 a month for no commercials TV. I am on NY and just paid $40.00 for nine holes for a course not near as nice as my free exec courses. I pay $82.00 for 18 on another Town Course.

Agree...well said.

Well said!!!:bigbow:

Don't Base Costs on Championship Golf Fees
 

Once again, up in the morning for 1 1/2 hours of pickleball with no fee, later lounge at the pool with no fee, afternoon golf on an executive course for no fee, evening at a square to listen to music & dance for no fee. Do the surrounding retirement golf communities have all this? I think Mr Schwartz would have realized some things would change and costs go up, but he would be proud of the lifestyle afforded to all members of his Villages no matter what their income. Be happy he created this wonderful place and his family has continued to develop a paradise for retirees, I am.

:bigbow:

Perfectly stated!!

Where else can you do all of those things with no fee AND live in such a beautiful place?:MOJE_whot::a040::clap2:

Simple
If the margin of profit is too low, the investor(owner) seeks a better investment. Look how often restaurants close or go through an endless chain of owners. When the investment provides a return comenserate with the risk incured,
the result is usually stable and quality ownership.I think the process is called capitalism *The American Way*. On this Memorial week end I hope we can all pause to give thanks to all who have paid with their bodies, minds, and lives to preserve our basic pricciples.

Getting back to the original question. Golf is rich mans sport. Everything about golf costs. Really not that demanding game when if comes to athletics. Sure if you got time to practice hours day you will eventually become good if you have any skills at all. But for the average duffer if social rich mans/ladies event which shooting 95 would be great score (if ALL the strokes was counted). I know I going to here golf requires a lot of skill! Yes it does at the Pro level which is .5% of golfers. Let's face it's rich mans sport sponsored by the 1%'ers for the 10%'ers.. Want to play? Then, expect to pay out the yang for Cloths, shoes, clubs, balls, Fees, and lunch...basically 250 dollar day unless you playing at the local cow pasture. Villager's enjoy excellent golf for the price, Don't expect to get off cheap at the Premiere Courses cause they were built for the rich not the retired iron or coal mine workers (blue collar types). :blahblahblah::popcorn:

Ladies don't get mad cause I left you out. GOLF has not me.... hence LPGA are rare event on TV anymore. My guess is all the money on the men's tournaments. IMO women have better stokes now matter what the game. Golf, tennis, billiards, smooth and clean striking.:blahblahblah::popcorn:

Unfortunately, some of our courses are close to being the local cow pasture. For what we pay, they are not consistently in very good shape, IMHO. There are a lot of reasons for that, lack of rain, high amount of players, questionable maintenance, questionable course construction when built, but at any given time, there seem to be 3 or 4 decent courses, while the rest of them are no great shakes. And we do pay more to play on our courses than neighboring communities do, and we provide our own golf carts to boot.

I Agree
 

In my opinion you are 100% correct. Someone remarked the other day if the Developer ever does anything that is not geared to result in income. I was not aware of a single thing. In fact, if one remembers the Phillips scramble it should bring back some good memories. Larry Phillips put a lot of his own money into this tournament and consequently a lot of money was generated for various charities. Well, as Mr. Phillips tells it, the Developer wanted a piece of the action----- this resulted in Mr. Phillips ending his relationship with the tournament. The Villages in their wise judgement then decided to do the tournament themselves, The golf division really bombed and created a mess that only lasted a few years. Then there was the Relay for Life charity event. This was conducted for several years at the high school facility. Again the Developer got involved and wanted some control of the donated moneys. The Relay for Life by laws forbid this, so then the Developer refused the use of the high school facility. Final outcome; Relay of Life was conducted in the parking lot of a large Urology Clinic. Thanks again redwitch for your posting.

WOW..You need to wake up from your pipe dream. NOBODY unless they are an idiot or are running a hobby goes into business without the intent of making a profit. Google Harold Schwartz and read about him. He was a lifetime salesman..and a DAMN good one. Sales people are motivated by one thing and one thing only...CASH. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy, but if you believe that this guy was just doing something out of the goodness of his heart you are quite sadly mistaken. Profit was ALWAYS the motive and it still is and there is NOTHING wrong with that. So if you don't want to play on the free courses, just cough up your money and get on with it.

Point Missed
 

You are missing my point. I have no objection to reasonable increases in products or services. That is the way the world works. There is not a golf course in Florida that generates more golfing activity than the Villages courses. More activity generates more income. So is the Villages golf courses generate the most income, why are they the most expensive ?? The Villages certainly cannot claim their fees are justified because the Villages courses are the finest around. The Amish would not agree that your quote means anything.

Not Valid
 

Again I must respond. If your arguement has any validity at all, every privately golf course within 50 miles would have gone bankrupt years ago. Stonecrest, Eagle Ridge, Dell Webb, Colonial, The Oaks, Ocala, Mount Dora, and Summer Glenn are still alive and operating. You would surely agree that the amount of play on these courses is far less than the Villages courses. And finally, I play these courses and they are usually in very nice condition.

Why
 

My original posting was a simple statement. WHY IS GOLF MORE EXPENSIVE FOR RESIDENTS HERE IN THE VILLAGES THAN IS IS FOR THEM TO PLAY NEARLY EVERY OUTSIDE COURSE WITHIN 50 MILES???????

a complaint
 

Are you complaining about people complaining.