Minimum Wage
 

I would support $15.00 per hour plus there should be a provision that no amount of hours worked should effect that amount. Hiring for less than 40 hours per week to get around minimum wage needs to be seen for the terible thing it is. These tactics are turning this great nation into a third world for millions of us. If you cannot run a business and pay a living wage, then you should shut the doors and try something else.

We own a small ice cream store in another state. Over the years that we have owned our business we have hired and trained over 125 teenagers. We've given them the opportunity to have their first job ever in a clean and safe environment. We teach them how to answer a phone, work with money, but most importantly how to treat a customer with excellent customer service skills. They learn so many life lessons from us so when they finally leave us after a couple of years then they are highly successful young people ready for the next position in life. This is a personal mission in our lives to try to make a difference.

If we had to pay $15.00 per hour, we could never afford to own our own business. To tell someone to" close your doors and try something else ", does not know a typical mom and pop operation.

I would enjoy meeting you at the next Crisper's meeting where I will be going to for the first time. I would be happy to share what we do with you if you would like to hear.

Thank you Missypie.

I am glad you put a face on economics. When we pass laws to try to do better for all we do better for some.

I think about why a lot of small businesses are cutting back on hours. Not because they are mean spirited, but because they are trying to survive. And big businesses too. Big businesses are jobs for many and security.

Sometimes you just can't legislate morality.

If we had held insurance coverage and hospital bills to the same standard for all we might have begun to solve the root problem of this particular issue.

I think most people are very worried about health insurance costs and most are worried for the right reasons. Very worried.

And on minimum wage..I know three of my neighbors who ended up financially secure that held two jobs early in life. It is not that I am unfeeling, I am realistic.

If in trying to help all people, we enable a lot of people to become lazy and unscrupulous, that isn't a good thing. We will turn the economy upside down if we don't proceed cautiously.

I understand the OP wants only good for all. He has a very kind heart. All of us need to learn the basics again, to cook and save money and to do without until we can afford. I speak about those who can work and care for themselves and not those who legitimately cannot. Not all who have more than they need to survive didn't get more than they need to survive overnight. It does take restraint when we are young and learning to save and sacrifice too.

I could go along with exempting teenagers trying to establish a work history, but NEVER for an adult. Helping youngsters get a start is commendable, taking advantage of adults is my concern.

I understand this way of thinking, and it certainly is applicable in a few circumstances, but overall, it is a habitual thought we have been trained to believe by big business, but has little to do with actual truth.

Clearly the OP has never run a business and could not. $15 an hour would cause an inflation issue and price much of American life out of reach for the same people he thinks he is helping. There are many ways to help low wage people but EDUCATION/TRAINING is the best way. Raise the skill level and the wage will follow. Common sense.

The law states nothing about being able to pay less than minimum wage based on hours. Also the Federal rate is paid if it is higher than the current state rate:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm#Florida

United States Federal Minimum Wage - 2013

You are a person who has walked the walk and talked the talk.

That is just talking points. If you could pay someone more without hurting your business JUST BECAUSE they had more education don't make sense. Before you respond, keep in mind that we already have collage grads working for minimum wage because of the job market.

You can raise labor rates all you want because it will all be relative. The cost of all will rise accordingly. A dishwasher income will always only be able to afford what a dishwasher makes. See Detroit.

If one has not ever run a business they have no practical insight into what it takes to make it a profitable entity.

Treating the subject of of making a maximum wage out of a minimum wage is an intellectual exercise disconnected from the reality of actual practice.

Small businesses that constitute the largest employers in the aggrigate would have a large number of them "closing their doors" if the minimum wage becomes $15.00 per hour. Some small business owners aspire to reach $15 per hour for their time.

How about a standard per hour rate of $5 per hour with the federal government subsidizing ANY amount over $5......only after putting it on a ballot and having it approved by the voters who will be voting to pay more taxes to make it work.
Pretty much like many of the programs in place already!!!

btk

I believe the point was "if you are educated you will have the opportunity to make more than minimum wage". The current job market is slowly improving, but I don't see how forcing a small business to pay $15./hour will do anything but destroy this unstable job market.

Yea, I was wondering about that as well. Where is it that you can pay less than minimum wage if you hire for less than 40 hours?

As far as raising the minimum wage to $15.00, why not raise it to $50.00?

The problem with both of those scenarios of course is that the cost of every thing would rise tremendously. Another thing that many people that advocate this kind of thing don't realize is that raising the minimum wage would raise all wages. If MacDonalds begins paying their counter people $15.00, how much would they pay their shift managers that are now making $12.00 who oversee those $15.00 an hour employees? Certainly their salaries would have to be over $15.00 per hour. Based on the current ratio, they would need to be paid about $20.00. The the store manager who is making $18.00 per hour would need to be paid $26.00 per hour.

In another scenario, an employee that has been with a company for over a year and has been give a COLA and a merit increase from $7.79 per hour and is now making $9.00 per hour should not be making the same $15.00 per hour as the new employee hired yesterday.

Raising the minimum wage would have a huge detrimental effect on the cost of living so that the person now getting paid $7.79 per hour would have less buying power than that same person making $15.00.

Raising the minimum wage would hurt everyone and probably hurt the poorest among us the most. But, it would garner a lot of votes for politicians who vote for it.

On the other hand, eliminating the minimum wage and allowing people to take jobs for whatever they and an employer decide is fair would put more people, especially young people working part time summer jobs etc to work.

An excellent point - if the minimum wage was raised to $15/hour all other wages would be raised to follow suit and then prices would be raised to cover these increases and we are back where we started from. A dishwasher making $15/hour being able to afford the same stuff he could making the current minimum wage!

Who knows, but I think it has more to do with owner greed than hurting the economy. The poor folks will spend the extra pay and that would help the economy

"Owner greed"........ tells me you do not know many small business owners or what it takes to generate an acceptable living from a small business.

Are you not missing the point that many small businesses that will wind up closing their doors will ONLY put more people out of work.

It is fine to beat the drum for what one believes but all aspects of impact just need to be understood. For some reason that does not seem to be of much consequence or concern in today's environment.

btk

I am wondering if the OP has ever owned a business or been responsible for the budget of a business.

Yea, that greedy missypie taking advantage of all those teenagers while she sits in her mansion just counting her money.

I too ran my own business for about 20 years. I had between three and five part time employees to cover the 84 hours a week that we were open. My payroll ran about $1,000 a week. Some of my employees had been with me for several years so they were making well over minimum wage.
I made, after the first few years, between $40,000 and $50,000 per year. To earn that, I often put in 90-100 hours a week.
If I had to double my payroll as the OP is suggesting, I would have had four choices. 1) Raise my prices which may have reduced sales, 2) reduce my personal income 3) let some of my employees go and work more hours myself, 4) let all the employees go, close the doors and collect unemployment while I looked for a job.
Yes, I too was one of those greedy owners.

I hear you clearly, but I am sure you are wrong. Small business go under due to incompetent owners, not because they pay too much to their employees.

They go under for both reasons, just as large businesses do.

True

the reason for raising the minimum wage rationale by the fed gov't is based on politics and not market realities. It is no different than unions who make wage demands without accompanying rises in production, quality education etc. it basically is saying I deserve a raise because I say so.

The economy is in deep trouble because of this mentality cheap money is only fueling this faltering economy because productivity is missing competition is being stifled and unemployement has lasted so long that those unemployed have lost their skill sets making them less employable.

do you feel the "love" from all those government freebies

This is a statement to emphasize your position. You are entitled to the opinion or "feeling" you may have but if you do not have first hand knowledge or experience you are clearly presenting what you think and not what is the reality of small businesses.


You may be right for some percentage of why businesses go under.....but incorrect as a general statement. They are successful for many reasons. When one's margins are decreased because of legislated increases in wage/payroll expenses without any increase in revenue to offset that increase there is no way for the owners to absorb that type of expense increase.

Most small businesses top expenses are rents, taxes and wages. The income before taxes is a fixed amount.....this fixed amount is reduced when arbutrary legislation dictates wages to be paid. To avoid paying employees "too much" the owners then have no choice but to reduce the number of employees or hours worked. Unlike government entities small businesses do not have the luxury of spending more than they have.

As has been staed in another post, as wages go up so do the cost of all goods which in turn increases prices which in turn comes from the customer, including those who benefit from the increased wages to only pay more for what they used to buy.

This is one of those shouting into a windstorm or corner. The above is not intended to try to change anybody's mind about what they want to promote or believe. Just an obligation to represent the reality of the small business owners plight.

Time to move to a differnt subject for me.

btk

I was the owner of a small (20 to 30 employees) specialty manufacturing and retail company for over 30 years.

Most of that time both the employees and I were paid a good basic wage with a substantial profit sharing arrangement. If the company made money everybody shared, but no profit no bonus. Amazing how everyone did their best to hold down costs and waste. No guarantees, but opportunities to make more.

Individual health insurance was 100% company paid along with vacation and sick days with the amount based on length of service.

and yes, I made more because the return on invested capital was part of the equation.( everyone does understand the principle of risk capital I hope)

You invest in my business and then you can tell how to run it.

With what small businesses have to put up with today from government on down, I thank God I sold my three generation, 100 year old business a decade or so ago.

Well in some cases I'm sure that you are correct, but I can tell you that if I had had to double my payroll, I would have gone out of business because of it. Not because I did anything wrong.

As a former small business owner I loved that I had the freedom of working any 168 hours a week I chose.

As far as the minimum wage group, sad to say that most of them aren't even worth that much. A lot of the workers today are terrible. I paid above the minimum wage to barely adequate workers, the problem with that is they begin to think they are worth it and THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

At Christmas I gave everyone a weeks pay for a bonus and never even received so much as a card in return-one girl wrote "Thank you" when she endorsed the check.

As a "greedy owner", I made the most money when I started out, as I grew the headaches became overwhelming and after matching their FICA and all the assorted BS I actually kept less money for myself.

I provided free health insurance and had one guy complain because we didn't do eyeglass coverage, so he threatened to dump our coverage and move his family onto his wife's company plan...THEY JUST DON'T GET IT.

I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there.

Think about the stupid people you have to deal with on a daily basis. Look at Comcast (IMO, their Christmas party must be like a stupidity convention), I'm sure their people make over the minimum and get benefits. Has it raised the level of competence?

That post makes sense. I will reconsider my position. Thanks for a direct response with such honesty.

No, they don't understand the principle of risk capital, nor that a business starter/owner earned that money working 80 hours a week, having little or no vacation, little or no time with their spouse and kids growing up, and paying employees came before paying the owner himself, to support his own family.

And this statement by Patty55 (and her whole post) says it ALL:

"I found these people begrudged my success, my toys and my lifestyle, yet they would never have chosen the sacrifices that I did to get there."

I agree. She came with reasons that make sense.

This is another thing that I forgot to mention. Matching FICA in additional unemployment insurance and workers comp insurance all go up when payroll goes up. So tack an addition 11% (approximate) to the additional payroll and you begin to understand what raising the minimum wage does to businesses and the economy.

And I'd someone that advocates a minimum wage of $15.00 to explain to me that if $15.00 is good, why they are not advocating $25.00 or $50.00 or an amount even higher. Wouldn't that give all of these poor minimum wage employees an even better lifestyle?

That is because when they graduated, they had zero job skills. I advocate mandatory jobs within the students' majors so that when they graduate it is with value instead of with a diploma that is nothing more than a checkmark on the job application.

Mandated by who?

life!!!

At this time most colleges do require internships in the career choice. Our granddaughter interned at our local Cincinnati TV station and spent three months on the Today Show. She worked at the local NPR station at the college that was the link to the surrounding counties for their news and she did this five nights a week...She also worked weekends at the performing arts center and stayed on the deans list for four years. Yes I am bragging. She also kept Ohio University as top party school during her attendance. So hopefully she came out a well rounded person.

She found a job quickly last year and quickly got a promotion.

No, it is really an understanding of basic economics. Bottom line is which you want - people making a lower wage than you think they should or a bigger unemployment problem than we have now. Underemployment is a real problem but not as big as chronic unemployment worse than the mess we are already in. Every time the government gets their hands in a free market the unintended consequences are overwhelming. Most such efforts fail but are swept under the rug.

We need people to have the opportunity to be successful in a free market environment or the whole thing will crash and burn. Lots of examples and history, most is not good. $15 an hour would be a shock to an already fragile market. As suggested by someone else, I would be happy to provide details and backup on this topic if you like. We need regulation to get out of the way of business and not more in the way. Consider the $15 an hour rule would hurt small business much more than big business (but would hurt all) and that small business is the source of over 80% of new jobs in this country. Inevery economic downturn (which is part of the standard business cycle) low end jobs get replaced with technology and that is where education opportunity comes in to play.

Not a difference of opinion, but of economic fact. I stand by my previous post.

Owner Greed. Really!! Clearly you have not run a business. Try owner working 18 hours a day for NO MONEY so he can keep his/her employees working rather than lay off half or more of them. Been there. Have you???

wow!!!!

Clearly there are some with negative opinions of workers in this country. The fact that they aren't even considering that minimum wage places a worker as a head of household in an untenable position. In the business climate today the "fat cats" are bloated and it has become fashionable to blame the workers for their personal plights. I find it disgusting that the wall street types and corporate big shots make so much money at the EXPENSE of their loyal and dedicated workers that can't do better because of the "market" artificially created by corporate greed. AND WALL STREET GROWS TO RECORD NUMBERS while the workers are doing less than they did in the 1960's. How sad and disgusting the greed is in this country now.

I used to complain about the salary of the CEO where my husband worked. He always replied, "good for him, perhaps I will make that much one day". His attitude was hard work pays off. Guess what? He never made as much as the CEO but he always moved forward and ended his career with a good salary. GREED? I feel those complaining about greed are really envious. It takes many hours and much hard work to get to that level. Not everyone wants to do the hard work, make the sacrifices and put in the hours it takes. I say, sour grapes.

Lift yourself up through hard work or keep taking handouts from the government - your choice.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be your life work that you could support a family on. It is a starting point to support yourself while you attain the skills to move up. Somewhere along the line that was forgotten.