TV and recent IRS Ruling
 

I recently read a short but seemingly credible statement in Florida Trend Magazine which addressed TV's legal battle with IRS ref tax exempt bonds. The statement noted "after a five year invesitgation, the federal IRS ruled in June 2013 that The Villages improperly issued tax-exempt bonds that helped finance development...taxes may now be owed on the $364million in bonds issued by community development districts for The Villages.

So, I guess my question is what will happen next?

Will TV residents end up paying the penalties or higher fees which are not transparent to residents?

Will the TV Developer completely be responsible for all IRS fees and penalties?

I welcome your thoughts, opinions and inside information right after you have your morning coffee, play golf, swim, eat lunch, and rest your eyes..:clap2:

Welcome to you.

See The Villages Voice for a very clear explanation.

Also see http://www.poa4us.org/bulletins_file...etin201308.pdf and earlier issues of the POA bulletin.

Here is an apparent quote from a knowledgeable source. You can decide which option you think is the most likely.

"I’m concerned that the IRS appears to be making new law through an enforcement process” … “options include getting the IRS to change the decision or asking bondholders to pay the taxes” … “Village Center Community Development District could try to settle the case but that could result in an expense that may ultimately be paid by area residents.”
-Perry Israel (Bond attorney representing the district)

Your answer will be found on any one or more of these threads..........enjoy!


https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...igation-79482/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...-issues-74539/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...d-issue-72635/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...wer-irs-70454/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...e-bonds-36324/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...ion-irs-63371/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...igation-40713/
https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...allenge-53568/[/QUOTE]

In reading the Villages Voice, published by the VHA, you should be aware of the Developer's sponsorship and subsidization of that organization. With respect to Kass's article, which is cited above, here is a POA article about his conflict of interest: MONTHLY POA BULLETIN. Look under "Cheers and Jeers". Kass's article is essentially a recap of the arguments made by the Developer's attorney. It is full of hope and short of objectivity.

To answer the question: No one on this forum has any real clue to the answers to your questions. But that want stop anyone from presenting their OPINION. Just know that's what you're getting.

Your post is not entirely clear. Are you quoting Perry Israel as saying: “Village Center Community Development District could try to settle the case but that could result in an expense that may ultimately be paid by area residents.”?
If so, where did he say it and what is the full quote? Frankly, I doubt that he said it-- at least I hope he didn't. For him to do so would be absolutely outrageous, and it is something that the VCCDD, the VHA, the Daily Sun, and Janet Tutt have been denying all along.

I am skeptical about the way this thread was started and how it is going..

I often wonder when some questions are posed, what the reasons are and what or whom the poster represents. Especially when a new poster has something inflammatory to say.

I have been reading this forum diligently for many years, I almost always can sense when something is different or suspicious.

Most recently here BREAKING: IRS Rules Against The Villages

But I have seen it mentioned in other articles in the past.

Gracie

Personally I think I am the last person you should be suspicious of. I recently retired from 41 years in the Department of Defense, the last 15 in the Pentagon in the Office of the Secretary. I will be renting long-term in The Villages staring in April looking for a possible home to stay in permanently. I have been to The Villages twice before on short stays and found the residents to be wonderful. If you would like to meet me I would be happy to dispel your concerns.

If Israel, who is really doing the Developer's bidding here since the Developer controls the VCCDD, is thinking about sticking residents with the cost of a settlement, he is ignoring the fact that, if that were to happen, there would certainly be another class action against the Developer. It would be one which I believe the Developer would ultimately lose, as he did the prior one. Also, if the quote you cite is accurate, it indicates that some of the defenders of the Developer in the forum may want to rethink their views.

I'm impressed......................

By the time this is all resolved most of us won't need to worry About it. ;)

There is no doubt in my mind there would be a class action lawsuit, and rightly deserved.

I agree.

While I applaud the developers brilliant business acumen, does anyone really think that hand picking the same folks who determine the value of what you're selling them is what the law envisioned?

I personally find it hard to believe that he didn't know that he was outside the intent of the law, but I think he figured he had enough friends in high places to protect him.

And it very well may turn out to be true, of which his brilliant (but sometimes shady) legacy will just grow.

apparent quote from a knowledgeable source-hmmmm. Maybe from Chicken Little?:confused:

An interesting update in the Bondbuyer; Bond Buyer Online - Incoming NABL President Details Group s Agenda

The Center Districts/Developer are getting some political support in their defense of the tax-exempt status of the bonds, but the IRS apparently is showing no signs of relenting-- at least not publicly.

I'm thinking that this is so complicated that it's going to take years before this is settled one way or another. So for right now,I am going to enjoy what I have right now . There is a lot to be said about this place some bad and a lot of good. Ill just enjoy all the good.

When did this issue arise??

The IRS investigation began in January 2008.

That has always been my opinion - it seemed pretty obvious what the intent of the law was, and an entity totally controlled by the developer is certainly not a legitimate "political subdivision" for purposes of the tax code.

I get so upset when this sort of slam occurs.

Some people do not like big business. Period. Amen.

And which side of the aisle that folks sit on politically color their opinions about the Morses too. We know to whom he donates money. For some it is the wrong whom.

What if the IRS had a uniform tax code and applied it evenly? Would TV be involved in a case with the IRS?

Yes indeed. What if? Seems like some recent snafu casts doubt on that.

But what the IRS is investigating in this case is whether our CDD here in The Villages can issue tax exempt municipal bonds.

This is a tax issue and not one of wrong doing.

It sounds like you are saying tax issue violations do not fall in the category of wrong doing. Al Capone, Wesley Snipes, Willie Nelson found out that was not the case.

I could be my interpretation of the term “wrong doing” is different than yours.

As of today the IRS has not made a finial ruling on any wrong doing, so maybe it will become a nonissue.

Those folks didn't pay their income taxes.

The IRS is investigating and will rule on whether municipal bonds on this form of government are tax exempt.

They have been investigating as Janmcn says, since 2008.

One way or another. If this is an issue, sell and move, or don't move here if you don't live here or if you are another developer, wait and see. The thing about anonymity on this forum is that no one really knows who you are or what you stand for.

I am frequently accused of being a "shill" for the developer. I am not. I am a 73, almost 74 year old woman who never dreamed to have such fun at this time of my life. Or ever thought to live in Florida. I very sincerely love this place and think it is so well run.

nicely pointed out, gracie! I, too, never thought I would be enjoying life as I do these days! and come the day that I can no longer enjoy the villages for whatever reason - I will be pleased to pick up my belongings and sell the house to the next person seeking to enjoy life as they see fit to do - and will hope that they find the same enjoyment that we have!

You should note that (at least up until now), the part of the IRS involved in this has been Tax Exemption/Government Entities division. Any penalties are administrative, just as being audited or owing money after an audit. And just as owing money (and penalties) after an audit has an appeals process, the Tax Code provides due process and appeals (all the way to the Supreme Court).

If it were criminal, Criminal Investigation would be handling it. Trust me, there is a major difference. You don't want to deal with CI... (as Al Capone and Wesley Snipes learned.). Really good people work for CI, but they don't have a sense of humor when it comes to criminal wrongdoing. That's why they (and not the FBI) got Al Capone.

Folks not paying taxes and folks not paying taxes on tax free bonds that should not have been issued both equate to a less revenue collected by the IRS.

The thing about anonymity, if I told you my name was Buck Nacid would you know what I stand for. Would it help if I told you I have 3 computers? I think not.
http://theakumalian.com/images/2013/...550%5B1%5D.jpg

Thank you Buck.

:024::024::024:

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Generally speaking if you look back at all of the posts that any particular posters have made, it tells a story of the way they feel about certain issues.

I often wonder why a person continues to live in this remarkable place and never misses a chance to be negative about it, the developer and the things the developer does.

On this forum and in my life here, I am not anonymous. I have had gatherings for TOTVrs at my home, as I am doing later this week for the women who have PMd me and I frequently attend luncheons at Crispers.

There are many people on this forum who know me and know me well.

Not so for the people who sometimes jab and run.

The topic of the thread is the IRS ruling. Please keep comments focused on that.

Moderator

Well said. Thank you.

The IRS investigation is the most important issue facing Villagers today and certainly worthy of discussion here. Yet it seems that whenever there is a new development and the topic is again raised here, some of the serial defenders of the developer launch a personal attack like: "If this is an issue, sell and move".

It is not a matter of "if" this is an issue. Anybody who understands the IRS investigation knows that it IS an issue, and Villagers should be able to discuss it here without being told to "move".

:agree:

It gets frustrating when one is trying to find some good information on the topic and has to weed through useless, childish bickering.

Thank you ! Well said.

We might as well say anything we want about the IRS investigation because NOBODY, repeat NOBODY on this forum has any clue as to the ultimate outcome or what, if any, impact there might be on the TV homeowner. It's all just guesses. Some will end up right and some will be wrong but it's all guesswork.

It is true that nobody knows for sure what the outcome will be, since this will be determined by the IRS, the Developer, and the Center Districts-- and maybe the courts.

It is not true that nobody has any clue as to what it might be or what the ultimate impact on the Villagers might be. This POA Bulletin, published back in 2009, lays things out pretty well: http://poa4us.org/bulletins_files/bulletin200908.pdf

Since that Bulletin was published and through the various stages of the examination process, the IRS has stuck to its position that the bonds are not tax exempt.

Just read the whole thing again. A lot of 'if this' then 'this'. The problem is we don't know what 'if this' IS. No one knows what the bottom line dollar amount that the average TVer will be impacted might be (if any). And no one will know until the dust settles. I do know one thing. Since 2009 an awful lot of new homes have been built and sold. And I would bet the majority of those buying had some limited knowledge of the IRS problem yet still purchased.

Let's remember that the bonds, even if bought back, can and will be resold again but not in a tax exempt fashion. So it's not like we are on the hook for much more than the penalty, difference in interest and back taxes. Am I correct in my reading of that?