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-   -   Why does politics have to be different from real life? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-political-talk-88/why-does-politics-have-different-real-life-144283/)

Guest 02-20-2015 09:21 AM

Why does politics have to be different from real life?
 
After wring most of the following in another thread, it just nagged me to the point that I did not want my thoughts buried in a maybe not so well titled thread. Hence the following:

I believe this party affiliation "thing" is being carried to a fault. Some posts give the impression that left or right, conservative or liberal and democrats or republicans are different species from different planets that could in no way understand what the other wants or needs.

How about approaching an issue the old fashioned way? How about we figure out what we AMERICANS want or need?

Under the primise usually seen in a political environment when there is a community need we should be dividing the room into democrats and republicans and God help us if there is a smattering of other than those two.
Now just how effective would that be?

Sounds stupid right?

Then why is it OK to do so when discussing the needs of the country.

Some how or another we have to get back to the fact the reality of everyday life for most of us is not politically driven.

The expectation seems to be to treat politics like sports and get behind one team or another. With one exception. Sports fans seem to have found a way to co-exist with the opposition.

This need for win-lose....and tearing down anybody or any group that does not align with one or anothers beliefs is total and absolute BS. That is not how life is lived.

And we all know that no matter how we pull together or not there will always be a radical element that churns the system. They are the miirity representation of any group. Yet we allow such radicals to dictate how we live life. I say BS to that as well.

I have never ever attended any organization, club or society or group or church or whatever where there was a need to know the party affiliation of each other to perform.

Let us try to not sucumb to the disease that currently afflicts politics in general. That of shying away from viewing the merits of people or projects or proposals and instead resort to dissing, sniping, degrading, name calling.

How about demanding politicans spend their time educating us about them. And not the tearing down and dirt digging of the other guy.

As for the radicals....well just look at the middle east and see what happens when a minority group pushes the majority around....including slaughtering and killing of innocents. Not the same? Yes it is. We just haven't devolved to the point of drawing blood to win anything....yet.

Guest 02-20-2015 09:28 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016262)
After wring most of the following in another thread, it just nagged me to the point that I did not want my thoughts buried in a maybe not so well titled thread. Hence the following:

I believe this party affiliation "thing" is being carried to a fault. Some posts give the impression that left or right, conservative or liberal and democrats or republicans are different species from different planets that could in no way understand what the other wants or needs.

How about approaching an issue the old fashioned way? How about we figure out what we AMERICANS want or need?

Under the primise usually seen in a political environment when there is a community need we should be dividing the room into democrats and republicans and God help us if there is a smattering of other than those two.
Now just how effective would that be?

Sounds stupid right?

Then why is it OK to do so when discussing the needs of the country.

Some how or another we have to get back to the fact the reality of everyday life for most of us is not politically driven.

The expectation seems to be to treat politics like sports and get behind one team or another. With one exception. Sports fans seem to have found a way to co-exist with the opposition.

This need for win-lose....and tearing down anybody or any group that does not align with one or anothers beliefs is total and absolute BS. That is not how life is lived.

And we all know that no matter how we pull together or not there will always be a radical element that churns the system. They are the miirity representation of any group. Yet we allow such radicals to dictate how we live life. I say BS to that as well.

I have never ever attended any organization, club or society or group or church or whatever where there was a need to know the party affiliation of each other to perform.

Let us try to not sucumb to the disease that currently afflicts politics in general. That of shying away from viewing the merits of people or projects or proposals and instead resort to dissing, sniping, degrading, name calling.

How about demanding politicans spend their time educating us about them. And not the tearing down and dirt digging of the other guy.

As for the radicals....well just look at the middle east and see what happens when a minority group pushes the majority around....including slaughtering and killing of innocents. Not the same? Yes it is. We just haven't devolved to the point of drawing blood to win anything....yet.

I am usually very wordy, but for this...

Your post is spot on !!!!!!!

Guest 02-20-2015 09:31 AM

I agree wholeheartedly and hope that this post gets more support.

Guest 02-20-2015 10:25 AM

Well stated, but I don't know if it is possible for many people. I think one example of the problem is when the Republican leaders came together at Obama's inauguration to vow to do whatever they could to see that his presidency fail. They didn't vow to make the country stronger, or to improve their constituent's lives, or see what they could do to get some of their agenda woven into that of the Presidents. No, they vowed to do what they could to see that he fails, despite the obvious outcome that if the President fails, the country and its citizens largely fail. Noncooperation and obstruction is not a unique Republican tactic, but that was the most obvious example I could think of. As you can see on this board, a microcosm of the country, people not only disagree, but see evil intent and ignorance at work in the ideas and opinions of the opposing side. When members of one side (a super minority I hope) see the other side as "mentally ill", how can any common ground be found?

Guest 02-20-2015 10:40 AM

I think it also begins to work when we quit using what who did or said or didn't in the past. Inappropriate behavior today or in the past is not lisence to do so again or to continue.

Just like a bumper sign that I have seen from time to time in many southern states:

I don't care how you did it back north or back home.

As long as we feel we need to get our pound of flesh or our perceived due (right or wrong) we will not move forward.

If we were in a catastrophic situation where there were only some of us left and we had to do whatever it takes to survive or get help. We would not be spending any time wondering what political or racial or religious persuasion one or another was/is.

Most.....MOST people left to their own devices wnat to do good and get along with their fellow man/neighbors. That is the only way to survive. And it is the only way out of the political need for division to win.

We will not get 100%. But there will be a significant majority that will participate....just because that is the way people are, naturally.

Just watch how younsters get along, and they don't need to know much about anything except to enjoy the moment. That part of life before being tainted by politics, religion, movies and television.....you know....real life.

Guest 02-20-2015 10:50 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016297)
Well stated, but I don't know if it is possible for many people. I think one example of the problem is when the Republican leaders came together at Obama's inauguration to vow to do whatever they could to see that his presidency fail. They didn't vow to make the country stronger, or to improve their constituent's lives, or see what they could do to get some of their agenda woven into that of the Presidents. No, they vowed to do what they could to see that he fails, despite the obvious outcome that if the President fails, the country and its citizens largely fail. Noncooperation and obstruction is not a unique Republican tactic, but that was the most obvious example I could think of. As you can see on this board, a microcosm of the country, people not only disagree, but see evil intent and ignorance at work in the ideas and opinions of the opposing side. When members of one side (a super minority I hope) see the other side as "mentally ill", how can any common ground be found?

Here is the problem with what you say.

NOTHING of the sort was said "at Obama's inauguration" of the sort.

The infamous comment was made by Sen McConnell in 2010 AFTER the Affordable Care Act was passed. And it was made on the eve of the mid term election.

"NJ: What’s the job?
McConnell: The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."


"When seen in full context, McConnell’s quote is not really as shocking as the snippet that is frequently repeated by Democrats."

When did McConnell say he wanted to make Obama a ‘one-term president’? - The Washington Post

This link also provides the full context of the remarks.

I have stated many times on here as to what happened and it ALL had to do with the passing of Obamacare, NOT the details in it, but the method used to pass it, Ie. disrupting the US Senate rules that had never been done, paying off to get votes even with the rule changes (see LA as a clear and public example), the public mocking of the other party all during the process and attempts to embarass that party.

The contest also has the FULL response...

" If President Obama does a Clintonian backflip, if he’s willing to meet us halfway on some of the biggest issues, it’s not inappropriate for us to do business with him."

The comment alluded to is a long standing political campaign ad type thing and I really thought that by now, everyone was aware of the context and the totally improper use of the quote.

Thus, we need civility to discuss, but we ALSO should make sure we are using facts in those discussions. I honestly can say that I have learned alot by reading on the old political forum and if you want to actually discuss, please make sure of your facts.

Guest 02-20-2015 11:26 AM

The Republicans’ Plan for the New President | Inside Obama?s Presidency | FRONTLINE | PBS


A group of republicans, organized by Frank Luntz, met on the night of President Obama's first inauguration to determine how they could undermine everything the new president tried to do.

The attendees included Senators Jim DeMint, John Kyle, Tom Koburn, and Congressmen Eric Kantor, Kevin McCarthy, and Paul Ryan, and many others.

This meeting has been well documented and a film about it "Inside Obama's Presidency" was made.

Guest 02-20-2015 11:28 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016315)
Here is the problem with what you say.

NOTHING of the sort was said "at Obama's inauguration" of the sort.

The infamous comment was made by Sen McConnell in 2010 AFTER the Affordable Care Act was passed. And it was made on the eve of the mid term election.

"NJ: What’s the job?
McConnell: The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president."


"When seen in full context, McConnell’s quote is not really as shocking as the snippet that is frequently repeated by Democrats."

When did McConnell say he wanted to make Obama a ‘one-term president’? - The Washington Post

This link also provides the full context of the remarks.

I have stated many times on here as to what happened and it ALL had to do with the passing of Obamacare, NOT the details in it, but the method used to pass it, Ie. disrupting the US Senate rules that had never been done, paying off to get votes even with the rule changes (see LA as a clear and public example), the public mocking of the other party all during the process and attempts to embarass that party.

The contest also has the FULL response...

" If President Obama does a Clintonian backflip, if he’s willing to meet us halfway on some of the biggest issues, it’s not inappropriate for us to do business with him."

The comment alluded to is a long standing political campaign ad type thing and I really thought that by now, everyone was aware of the context and the totally improper use of the quote.

Thus, we need civility to discuss, but we ALSO should make sure we are using facts in those discussions. I honestly can say that I have learned alot by reading on the old political forum and if you want to actually discuss, please make sure of your facts.

Facts?

Robert Draper Book: GOP's Anti-Obama Campaign Started Night Of Inauguration

Not a Sharpton fan, but Newt corroborates:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0fVf5CsCc

Guest 02-20-2015 11:48 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016297)
Well stated, but I don't know if it is possible for many people. I think one example of the problem is when the Republican leaders came together at Obama's inauguration to vow to do whatever they could to see that his presidency fail. They didn't vow to make the country stronger, or to improve their constituent's lives, or see what they could do to get some of their agenda woven into that of the Presidents. No, they vowed to do what they could to see that he fails, despite the obvious outcome that if the President fails, the country and its citizens largely fail. Noncooperation and obstruction is not a unique Republican tactic, but that was the most obvious example I could think of. As you can see on this board, a microcosm of the country, people not only disagree, but see evil intent and ignorance at work in the ideas and opinions of the opposing side. When members of one side (a super minority I hope) see the other side as "mentally ill", how can any common ground be found?

Actually, eloquence notwithstanding, this simply demonizes the Republicans, particularly their motivations, pretty much along talking point lines.

Also, if you read the book "Fourth Turning" it does a nice job in explaining the evolution over a multi-generational time span of how consensus is attained in any society. You can see the evidence of that on this board daily.

Guest 02-20-2015 11:55 AM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016341)
The Republicans’ Plan for the New President | Inside Obama?s Presidency | FRONTLINE | PBS


A group of republicans, organized by Frank Luntz, met on the night of President Obama's first inauguration to determine how they could undermine everything the new president tried to do.

The attendees included Senators Jim DeMint, John Kyle, Tom Koburn, and Congressmen Eric Kantor, Kevin McCarthy, and Paul Ryan, and many others.

This meeting has been well documented and a film about it "Inside Obama's Presidency" was made.

First of all, it has never been about "undermining" Obama ... it's motivated by a desire to save the Country from him and his band of Merry Leftists.

It's kind of amusing ... and actually reflects his undeniable narcissism ... it's all about me (ie Obama). Count the number of times he refers to himself in a speech.

In any event, Obama is a decent guy on a personal level (see book "First Family Detail" where Secret Service agents tell their story). But, his POLICIES must and will be not just resisted but overcome.

The most recent, and best example .... his failure (as in negligence) to recognize Radical Islam as our mortal enemy and, worse, failure to come up with a credible strategy to defeat it. Jobs for Jihadis ... this would be hilarious were it not for that fact this topic is literally a matter of life and death.

Guest 02-20-2015 12:09 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016368)
First of all, it has never been about "undermining" Obama ... it's motivated by a desire to save the Country from him and his band of Merry Leftists.

It's kind of amusing ... and actually reflects his undeniable narcissism ... it's all about me (ie Obama). Count the number of times he refers to himself in a speech.

In any event, Obama is a decent guy on a personal level (see book "First Family Detail" where Secret Service agents tell their story). But, his POLICIES must and will be not just resisted but overcome.

The most recent, and best example .... his failure (as in negligence) to recognize Radical Islam as our mortal enemy and, worse, failure to come up with a credible strategy to defeat it. Jobs for Jihadis ... this would be hilarious were it not for that fact this topic is literally a matter of life and death.


The president has explained over and over, "this is not a religious war". Calling ISSL radical Islam plays right into their hands. They want it to be a religious war, east against west. Obama is correct when he says this is a gang of thugs, using Islam in their battle. Personal regards.

Guest 02-20-2015 01:27 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016342)

I assume the post previous was also yours and I thank you for both of them.

There is no defense of what on the surface is indefensible.

ON a personal note, I am 75...voted for JFK in 1960. I say that to explain I have seen many presidential elections and a number of Presidents, etc.

Anyone who knows who I am knows that I posted on the old political forum with great zest about the election, and were I in the house or senate, I may have been involved in the meeting, as I never recall an election that simply grabbed me with fear !!!!

NONETHELESS....no excuse for this from men in those positions...NONE.

Thanks for the links.

Guest 02-20-2015 01:42 PM

The basis for this thread is flawed. it doesn't matter if someone did or did not say they wanted Obama to fail. and its not about parties etc.

What the reality is here pertains to the fact that Obama and his Administration have failed themselves and for anyone to imply that others cause their failure is just not the case. As to the causes of their failures I leave that to others.

But this is the worse presidency I have witnessed in my entire life and it is so far from what America use to stand for that i do not recognize my America any longer

Guest 02-20-2015 02:48 PM

No the thread is not flawed.
The thread is about how to try to not do nothing more than rehash who did what to whom and when and what did they say when they did it. And then for each side to do their best (and worst) to make their point or justify their position or the parties position or personal opinion.

This thread was to highlight exactly the tangent it has taken. It has gone from what would it take to communicate better. Not continue to do verbal battle over the past. And not to have someone get high up on the pedestal and blow the trumpet for their guy or party.

No that is not what the thread is all about. Or some do not know the difference between a thread....the original post and subject matter VS a post within the thread.

I know, I will get scolded for not allowing we cannot go forward until we sort out history. Really. Some of us will be well down the road of progress while some pursue a win position on yesterdays news.

Yes it is much easier to do that, I fully understand that as well.

Guest 02-20-2015 03:42 PM

Quote:

Posted by Guest (Post 1016297)
I think one example of the problem is when the Republican leaders came together at Obama's inauguration to vow to do whatever they could to see that his presidency fail.

Republicans wanted to defeat Obama's policy agenda because it was obvious it was in direct opposition to their beliefs. Politicians have constituents to answer to.

And what is Obama going to do now? He's going to Veto everything passed by the Senate because it won't be what he believes in.


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