Teachers salaries.
 

Spent my career in public education, much of it in Fl and some in Lake and Sumter. I think there is some mistake about the salary schedule, not sure and not trying to take an "I know attitude", but if they have actually gone "backward" on the schedule since I retired, you must have been looking at the B.S./B.A. level which, in most public school districts in most states, stops anywhere between the 12 to the 15th year. There are few teachers who are content to spend an additional 15, even 20 years at a "bottom out" level. This is intentional on the part of the residents of communities, school board members, and administrators, to encourage teachers to not end their education at the bachelor's level and 30 years down the road have not added to their skills and education. Having said that, of course the "best" teachers in all the districts where I was privileged to be a building and district central administrator, were not always the highest paid. It is exactly like those of us who have spend out careers in school administration know, the number of dollars spent per student (past a base level of course), does not translate to an outstanding education. When I worked as a principal and central office administrator, when zero based budgeting was "imposed" on us, the truth is, money was no longer foolishly spent. Just some thoughts. Interesting that those in the most affluent schools and districts are turning against "bookless" schools where children spend the school hours the same as home and recreation hours; staring at screens. The public CAN have fabulous schools, for free, NO, but most outside the education community have no idea how much can really be accomplished with actually a minimum budget. Food for thought from 40 years experience at every level, elementary school to inner city high school principal, to central office administrator, to university professor, money is not what needs to change. Hope this sparks thoughts, not nasty remarks and hateful statements without thinking..... everyone, even "poor" communities can have exceptional schools.

Teachers salaries.
 

The moderator asked that we not discuss this topic in another thread so I have started this thread.

Jump in with Statistics. I will try to find fair and valid and recent ones.

Here's the first one;

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

According to this one Jazuela, there is not a lot of difference between Connecticut and Florida.

Every morning, I look @ several newspapers online-one of them is the Morris County Daily Record, its states that in NJ teachers salaries vary very differently from town to town, there are over 700 different school districts in NJ--where I lived the Median was $88 K, with the high being $107--in NJ teachers are allowed to bank unused sick days, it adds up to a nice severance package upon retirement also teachers get extra pay for coaching and other duties

I volunteered at a new Habitat for Humanity house in Wildwood in the spring that was being built for a Wildwood teacher and her daughter. Her income was so low that she qualified. It is pathetic.

Here is quality of education by state according to U.S. News;
Access Denied


However as Chatbrat says; Quality in public education varies a lot within the State.

Not just teachers, Florida salaries are @ least 30 years behind what they were in NJ, --when you go to sell a house in NJ one of the most important factors is"the school report" if a school district is excellent it drives real estate values--,go to Zillow & look up Chatham Boro & Chatham Twp- in 1985 a house that was sold for $165,000 is now valued for $985000--people who move there don't have to pay for a private school

Hi All !!!!




Does anyone have a suggestion as to how "we" determine a fair wage?? What's a formula which would work, district by district??


There should be a way to determine a fair starting wage and index by CoL by district, but I've never seen a proposal.


Just wondering, not helpful.

Not bad for a part time job ....Also negotiated is a calendar work year that limits teachers to 181 work days. Most Americans work 245 days per year meaning teachers get nearly 13 weeks more vacation time than the typical US worker. Michael Robertson: The Myth of the Underpaid Teacher
Thank you for bring this topic to my attention

Teachers get credit for educating students; however,in affluent comities were both parents have college degrees,IMHO they are the real reason for the teachers success--In Baltimore there is not a single HS that has ONE student who is up to passing the state requirement for math proficiency

There's a HUGE difference. Maybe you were reading the wrong states. You're definitely reading the wrong website.

If you want to know salaries, you have to go to the actual district's official website, not some aggregate that collects data from all kinds of sources and doesn't fact-check.

Sumter County's schedule of salaries for public education teachers for last year (2018-2019) is here:

http://assets.sumter.k12.fl.us/Human...y-Schedule.pdf

Teachers starting with a BS degree start at $40,875. The most they can earn, after 25 years of service, is $59,248. If they get a Master's degree they can tack another $2,667 on that, and if they're a specialist or have a PhD in Education they can add $3,667.

There are incentives for them to work in underserved schools - but the incentives are just a bump up the existing schedule, the max doesn't change, they just reach it sooner because they start out further up the pay level.

Compare to Waterbury, CT, a valley town with some fairly tony areas, and a lot of underserved areas. Their contract is here, the schedule of salaries is on page 69: https://www.waterbury.k12.ct.us/user....pdf?id=548457

Teachers starting with a Bachelor's degree enter at $43,110. Not much difference there. But after only 12 years of service they cap out at $77,369. That's almost a $20k per year difference, and they achieve it after 12 years rather than 25 years.

A PhD starts at $52,491 and caps at $93,365, which is more than $30,000 higher than the max cap for Sumter County Florida. And again, that's after 12 years, not 25.

They also get significant incentives, such as an additional $5,542 if they double as an assistant Baseball coach with a JV team for the whole season.

Florida usually ranks in the bottom 5-10 in public school quality. Connecticut is consistently in the top 10 and often makes it to the top 5.

Florida public schools are horrible, their teachers are poorly paid, well under the national average, and their systems are given insufficient funding to educate their kids. Connecticut schools typically perform very well, their teachers are well paid, always much higher than the national average, and the systems are given funding that can cover at least the minimum costs. Even when they don't, the teachers don't have to get a second job to afford to pick up extra pencils for their students.

That doesn't mean you should just randomly pour money into schools and expect them to suddenly become good schools. But proper training, higher standards of education, comprehensive education, providing a safe, effective, productive education that isn't focused on "graduation" but instead is focused on "kids who know more stuff" costs money.

So many school systems only care about how many kids graduate, that they're teaching them how to pass tests and not teaching them anything they actually need to know, in order to succeed in life after school.

Connecticut has entire programs dedicated to internships and civil service, social programs - all things the students are required to participate in, if they want to graduate. They are required to "be good citizens" in addition to learning how to read and write.

Many blue collared, mostly HS educated people are successful because they learned the same things in another place...LIFE.

Of course most of us value education, but most of us also value knowledge, no matter how it is acquired. Disclaimer. I have never failed to vote for a school levy.

It is not a part time job. It is a full time job with mandatory overtime. That 181 days is days that the teacher spends in the classroom, not the days the teacher works.

Teachers are expected to work outside the classroom on lesson plans, grading papers, continuing education, mandatory upkeep on certifications, scheduling, parent-teacher meetings, field trips. That "vacation" time usually results in being little more than the same 4 weeks that most full-time people get after they've been working for a few years in the same company.

Except teachers work MUCH more than 7.5 hours per day, and they are responsible for the lives of children. School children spend more time with teachers than they spend with their own parents, in most cases.

I can attest to the superior quality of New Jersey's school system, and the way they tracked and team-taught their students back when we lived in Morris County, NJ (Randolph School District). When we moved to Michigan, which you might note doesn't even make the top 15 on your list, our eighth grader was a year ahead of his class on every subject. We eventually took him out of that school system and sent him back East to a private school.

When the teachers in Randolph struck, we parents went to bat for them. They were excellent teachers and had an individual plan for each student. They deserved every cent they got and then some.

When I retired back in 95, always wanted to be a teacher-well tried it for 6 weeks, could not believe what was being taught as HS math-gave up--a real eye opener was , when I found out that most teachers in the schoolt,I tried out sent their kids to private schools

A final thought, if you worked in Fl, in your career-do you think you would be able to retire when you did and could you afford to live in TV

North Haven School District Average Teacher Salary & How to Become a Teacher

Sumter Average Teacher Salary & How to Become a Teacher

You are right Jazuela. On this one it is 44k vs. 55k for average salary. I have heard wonderful things about Connecticut Schools and Florida Schools not so much. Very grateful to be from Ohio and raised our kids and saw our grandkids go through the wonderful Lakota Local School District.

Our grandson who started college with 13 advanced placement credits said college was easier than high school.

Given that Rory Mcllroy just won $15,000,000 for winning the Fed Ex Cup, it appears our society values golf way more than just about all other professions, including teachers? If you have not already done so, get your Grandkids a set of clubs for their next birthday!

Just a thought, fair wage should be tied to the cost of living in the area. In Hawaii the teachers’ salaries are so low that Hawaii cannot keep their teachers. People leave this paradise because they can’t even minimally live there.

One school does not a school system make, perhaps the teacher profession lost a great one in you.

I do remember my calculus teacher in high school. We had a double 40 minute class. He came in, put incomprehensible math on the board, asked “Any questions?” If you asked a question of any kind he belittled you or made fun of you to make sure there were no questions. Then after 5 minutes he left to go to the staff room or something for the rest of the time. We as a group tried to figure out the math problems from the assignment, from the text book, helped each other, encouraged each other. Those who were applying for university (I went into engineering) had to have A or higher achievement in the national test for calculus to be considered for admission.

Yes, there are some bad apples among teachers too.

Just a tad of topic but a question that has been bothering me. As we all know there has been a ton of building in Wildwood with every homeowner and commercial building owner paying school taxes as well as Wildwood city taxes but no additional children going to the schools to speak of. Why does it take volunteers to paint the Junior High School football facilities? Where is this tax money going, I don't recall seeing any new schools being built or raises for teachers? I don't mind paying taxes for schools even without having children reside with us but it would be nice to know that the money is being spent for the betterment of the children.

"Banked sick day payment at retirement" has to do with the contract negotiated with the local school district as well and not the State (in NJ). In our school district my wife had many hundreds of "banked" sick days which we REALLY thought she could get when she left. She rarely ever used one unlike a lot of employees who took every one every year. When she retired after ~35 years she received 50% payment for only 100 of them. Not quite the "windfall" for barely ever calling in sick for 35 years. She "donated" what was left to the "district sickday pool" where employees with serious illnesses and ran out of sick days could draw from them to which she and others donated over the years as well. Again, all based on the local school district contract negotiations not just living in NJ. The variance between districts with regard to benefits and "perks" is quite high. The only thing I believe that was fully controlled by just the State was the actual pension amounts and the medical benefits upon retirement.

This argument about teacher pay has been going on forever and will not be solved here. Here are my opinions:

I don't like teacher unions or tenure. You should be able to fire a bad teacher.
Teacher salaries are fine. If you don't want the job, get another one. If they pay more in Connecticut or New Jersey, move there.
Higher pay should be based on better results, but, over the years, I have not seen better results in the schools. And, too much money goes to administrators.
As compared to most full time jobs, teaching is a part time job. Always has been.
Rory Mcilroy was not paid $15 million by the taxpayers.

I am seeing a lot I agree with here.

If teaching is a part time job, why do so many teacher suffer burn out and have to leave their chosen profession? Stress level is just under those of surgeons.

Tenure was introduced at universities to insure academic freedom. That you cannot be fired by a predominantly left leaning economic department, for example, because you have conservative views.

Unions seem to be best in small amounts. Unionizing the workforce say around 30% of the total labor force in a country, ensures better working conditions, higher than that it becomes protectionist and worker entitlement progressively. Below 30% encourages slave labor.

Someone mentioned merit pay, ie. pay for student performance. Let me say why I don’t think it is a good idea (at least in elementary schools). A teacher does not work alone. One is good at math, one is good in music. Our school had an outstanding music teacher and we won all the competitions from choir, to boy’s quartet etc etc. We (the other teachers) got the uniforms, bused the kids to music performances, looked after all the paperwork necessary so the music teacher could concentrate on composing and teaching only. That was part of the reason why we were the best in our district. We pulled together. Another example was sports teams. One person taught the kids but the rest of us helped him with his regular class. Another is specialist, I was good in math, taught my colleague’s class too and she was great with language, she taught my class too in that area.

And then, student performance is absolutely related to student IQ. If teachers were paid merit pay they could demand that no student be placed with them who did not meet a certain level of IQ.

Teaching is a part time job because they work fewer hours per day, get more holidays and breaks, and have most of the summer off, as compared to a full time worker who is on the job about 2080 hours per year, except for a few holidays and a couple of weeks vacation. Some teachers claim to spend extra hours after the school day, but, that time is not clearly defined, monitored, or mandated, and I have known teachers who do not spend very much time after the regular hours. If they burn out, they are probably in the wrong profession. My opinion.

I am sorry that this is the public perception. In general, it is inaccurate.

However, there are teachers who try to take advantage and that deadwood needs to be trashed.

When I retired, I wanted to give back what I had learned in business. I went to a large meeting of people who were interested in becoming teachers. The speaker told us, that, if we were serious, we should all spend at least 5 days following a teacher around every class they taught. She then said, "and if you don't feel a need to see a psychologist after those 5 days, then teaching might be for you." I then spoke with a childhood friend who taught at a University, and he said, the biggest problem was that the kids weren't motivated, and blamed the parents for their lack of parenthood in raising their children. Obviously, teaching wasn't for me, but I came to realize that teachers should be paid much more.

The ones who burn out are the ones usually who give their all to the profession and are not supported adequately. For most teachers, teaching is a calling, not a job.

Florida defines a school year as being 900 hours of class time. That would equate to only about 112 eight hour work days. Most people who work full time jobs can only charge for the time that they are actually working. No wonder there is a "perception" that teaching is a part time job.

Yes, but classroom time is only a fraction of the work. If you have any doubts, please volunteer for a short time in any elementary class. All kinds of help is usually appreciated. You need to prepare for classroom time, much as a performer needs to prepare for the stage. Should we be paying say, Cher, by the hours she spends on stage?

Some people always seem have a negative comment about teachers work schedules and salaries. I believe it is based on jealousy and the lack of knowledge as to what is expected of a teacher today. They really have no respect for teachers. The salaries in FL and the Charter School are very low for a person who must have at least a 4 year college degree and have passed State exams in their field. To think a person could only reach $59,000 after 25 years in FL (less in the Charter School) is disgraceful. I just had a teacher retire from my department on Long Island, NY after 32 years with a Masters Degree and they were earning $144,000. The people in that district are not rich, but they want a good school system and that means paying the teachers well. They appreciate their teachers. They don't count how many hours a year the teacher "clocks in".

Teachers aren't the only workers who put in extra hours. In the army my normal day was 10 hours and sometimes 12. When we went to the field it was 24 hour a day until the training exercise was over which could run as long as 30 days. No we didn't stay awake for 24 hours straight but you only got about 4-6 hours of sleep a night. Check the pay for a soldier, no where near the starting salary for a teacher. My wife worked in the cash management section for a very large corporation. The salaried people were expected to put in 50-60 hours a week and most took work home at night. Even on vacation they had to respond to e-mails and usually took work with them. A lot of the salaries were about what a teacher makes. Prison guards work in extremely dangerous and stressful jobs for far less than a teacher makes. Many of them have to work double shifts due to manpower shortages or replacing sick guards. Police officers in smaller cities or towns also perform dangerous and stressful work, perform required overtime for pay less than a teacher. Many police officer moonlight as security guards to supplement their income. My nephew, a blue collar high school educated peon, works as a mechanic. He routinely puts in 10 - 12 hour days working in an unairconditioned and a poorly heated shop that is miserable in the summer and winter in the midwest. At the end of the day the pain in his feet and back make it difficult for him to sleep at night. He makes good money, more than most teachers, but he earns every penny of it because of the work environment and the fact that he is a hard working, skilled and certified mechanic. There are a lot of professions that are stressful and require long work hours and pay no better than teachers.

My comments were not intended to be negative. I'm just doing the math. Teachers constantly claim that they have a full time job. I disagree. If teachers want to have a full time job, then, yes, they should "clock in" the hours like other full time workers. Then, there would be no argument about whether they have a full or part time job. But, I have known teachers who didn't do any work outside of the classroom.

Let me give another example, in rural India some places cannot pay their teachers adequately for them to live on. How the teacher survives is by taking the children, half the class time, to work the teacher’s fields. One of my students came from such a place.
We were at one point talking about what is a fair wage, I think it should be one related to the cost of living in the area.

That could be done, like lawyers charge by the hour etc, teacher’s could do the same. How much overtime do you think an average teacher might get?

Well, if they are currently full time workers, then, apparently, they are already being paid for more than two times the actual time (900 hours) that they spend in class. So, I guess the overtime would start from there. I would be happy to pay for overtime that is required as long as it can documented, verified, and proven to benefit the students.

Would lawyers do that for you? To that extent so would teachers, and you’d probably get the same type of people too.

The teaching profession is one of the oldest, and practiced internationally, pretty well everywhere. If you have a better solution than what we have so far, many people would be interested.

I will say that I have a higher opinion of teachers than of lawyers. And, I would never ever agree to pay a lawyer by the hour.