Where did the Covid19 virus originate?
 

Did the virus emerge “naturally” or was it at least, in part, the product of a lab experiment gone wrong? No one knows for sure. Presumably after all this blows over, we’ll have a variety of investigations to answer this and other questions.

In the meantime, here’s a pertinent news story from Italian TV circa 2015. It’s quite interesting.

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It is my opinion that the new virus started as a cross over from animals as many genetic changes in viruses do. Whether it was something engineered in a lab doesn't matter now. It is too late to talk about whether it was a plot or not. That ship has sailed. We can spank somebody as soon as we save the patients lives. We are needing all efforts to follow the rules of the medical experts and we can cypher out how it started later. I am not much for conspiracies that would shoot the conspirer in the foot or heart for that matter.

China, like 95% of all the rest.

Not clear where, or how, you got the notion of a conspiracy theory ... it's simply an Italian TV news story from five years ago that seems relevant.

Q&A on coronaviruses (COVID-19)

A good source of information.

Several posts have been removed due to political references. The thread topic is the origin of the virus. Any post with political references or undertones will be removed.

Moderator

Excellent article in The New Yorker: "From Bats to Human Lungs", the Evolution of a Coronavirus

By Carolyn Kormann
March 27, 2020

Excellent article worth finding on line.

Hmm... you're suggesting a novel, deadly virus originating "supposedly" from Wuhan, China hits our shore, infects many thousands, kills many hundreds and "no one (in the US) knows for sure"?

Sorry, but you're terribly naive in your thinking. I absolutely guarantee people in certain places in our government have unequivocally determined whether this is a man-made biological weapon released from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (China's only Level-4 Bio-Weapons Laboratory). If we were under a biological attack from an adversary, there would have been a military response, both domestically and against our new adversary. The naive suggestions that we don't ascertain the threat and origin until a "potential" attack is over is just...well...uninformed.

To the contrary, naive I'm not. I worked 28 years in the three letter agencies, one in particular. I'm confident that this is being tracked down in highly compartmented channels, and based on various intel sources & methods. For that very reason, amongst others, it would not be publicized.

To the extent it’s proven China is responsible, and especially if deliberately unleashed (neither of which has yet been ascertained), it's obviously a potential hot war situation. Extremely delicate to say the least. For that very reason, and thankfully so, cooler heads than yours are prevailing. If, and when, there's a response it will be on our terms and not a rote reaction based on emotion.

No one knows? Want to reconsider?

I think you got my point. I have my opinion on what the preponderance of evidence shows in terms of what's publicly available. The classified evidence available to the US intel community is significantly higher. But they're not going to go around broadcasting it publicly for obvious reasons, nor go off half-cocked.

Another factor is that in most cases in the intel world, you typically don't get 100% proof on anything, but do you at some point have to make the best judgement possible. I'm confident we will when the time is right, and that is for sure not now. For example, two aircraft carriers were taken out of action today due to the virus.

Nearly 4 months after the first novel virus cases erupted in Wuhan... and you're insisting (apparently) that our intelligence agencies are so inept that they can't figure out whether we're under a biological attack or not? :ohdear:

Not sure what to make of you Tex. Are you sure your 3-letter agencies aren't AAA, DMV, FHA? If you have even the most remote affiliation with our intelligence agencies, you wouldn't be pushing the falsehood that no one knows the origination of this virus and whether it is natural or weaponized.

I have interacted with the people that make these sorts of determinations and they would heartily chuckle at your naiveté. (Sorry, just calling it as I see it.)

I did not say the intel agencies are inept. I said they will not emote in the manner you seem to consistently do. Their job is to provide objective intel to the policymakers (POTUS and others) so they can then determine what to do and when. The real question is whether the altered virus was released through CCP ineptness or deliberately.

If it make you feel better in the meantime, go for it and vent all you want. I'm sure you're calling it as you see it but ... you really don't know what you're talking about.

I think it is very important to find out exactly where and how it originated, but not in an effort to put blame on anyone. It is important so the world can learn and adopt, to help prevent something like this from happening again.

Origin of Corona Virus
 

The Corona Virus has been closely examined by the CDC and scientists have determined without doubt that this virus is naturally evolved. There is no gene splicing nor are there any lab generated anomalies to this Virus. It has most certainly manifested itself through Chinese consumption of Horseshoe Bats, the source of this virus.

I don't know what this means, your response to my response.

I saw the question on our opinion of the origin of this new, dangerous virus and I said most new viruses are a cross over from animals. And if it were a release of an engineered virus in China by scientists trying to harm the U.S. that it was damned dumb because it hurt China. And no matter if it were released on purpose, we can sort that out after we do everything in our power to save lives. What ever caused it, no matter how it began, and viruses evolve and become less harmful and more harmful, that ship has sailed. I think someone ate an infected animal. That is my opinion and my answer to how this began, but I could be wrong. The only three letter organization I have worked for is the PTA.

I think that no matter how the virus originated, countries are at least learning that using a viral agent as a bioweapon would - at some point - strike themselves.

Wuhan is home to china's largest chemical warfare factory. Of course it is more convenient for them to blame the U.S. as they are now doing.

Patient Zero, is supposed to be a shrimp vendor in the Wuhan mkt, she went to a dr , in early Dec, was treated for a cold--they had no idea what the virus was then--after she transmitted it to others, then they knew she had a problem

"Without a doubt" and "has most certainly" is 100% certainty. In this case, I don't think so. But hey, thanks for sharing your view.

You initially referred to the raising of this question as a conspiracy theory, which in contemporary terms, means it's beyond the boundaries of polite discussion. and can thus be dismissed without thinking about it.

In any event, the PTA is a wonderful organization. Thank you for your service and your opinion about the catalyst being ingestion of an infected animal.

Biological lab vs chemical, but otherwise I agree with your point. The idea that the US Army started this is laughable although that propaganda plays well in some 3rd world countries which is why the Chinese said it.

>> doesn't matter now <<
Disagree. If the source is found then ways to avoid in the future can be pursed. If not found we can live the rest of our lives in ignorance, waiting for recurrence.

Are you kidding viruses mutate naturally all the time this is just a natural mutation of the Corona virus not a totally new virus.

From all the research I've read and heard, I agree with Bwolf1. It most likely was transmitted from live bats sold in open markets in China. I hear bats are full of viruses that can be transmitted to humans. Shouldn't the world ask them to stop this practice?!

The "conspiracy theory" referred to within the chain originates because it has been said that a couple of Chinese were arrested last fall for taking the lab animals and instead of cremating them, euthanizing them and selling them to street vendors. They hypothesize that this was the original method of transmission .... and that the lab was a research lab for weaponizing virus.

One of my life mottoes is: never conclude something is a conspiracy when human stupidity is more likely. China allows wild animal "wet" markets, and peasants buy bats and other wild creatures. The poor folk eating them, along with the hunters that capture them, allow for the transmission of viruses that are benign to the animal to humans and the combination can produce a SARS or Covid-19 epidemic. This article give ample details.

So I don't think we have to conclude there was a conscious effort by the Chinese to infect the world. Human stupidity -- authoritarian government in this case -- is an ample explanation. Read the article and remember, the smart thing to do would be to shut down the wild animal markets so people would be discouraged from eating bats, among other dreadful menu items from the wild. But don't count on the Chinese leadership to do it.

From Bats to Human Lungs, the Evolution of a Coronavirus | The New Yorker

It's pretty clear to the world of science that the novel virus started in a Chinese "wet market" Have you ever been in a wet market in an Asian country? I have. It's pretty disgusting to my Western sensibilities. I thought the chickens killed to order were disgusting, then saw a cage with some kind of badger in it, waiting to die for some strange diet. I never saw any bats or civets (whose butchering has also been responsible for novel viruses from China in the past), but am not surprised that people eat them. The world needs to wake up and put pressure on China to end this barbaric practice. The Chinese could at least separate the stalls that kill and butcher these wild animals to avoid the obvious cross-contamination that occurs there.

One of the problems is insufficient protein in China. Hence, people literally cook and eat anything that flies, crawls or walks.

You mentioned the wet market. Since you cited that, here’s a link that shows how that market operates. I know you said you’ve seen one but most people haven’t. If any viewer has a delicate stomach, you really don’t want to look at this … it's indeed disgusting and, more accurately, revolting to most Westerners.

Wuhan Meat Market - Hell on Earth! - YouTube

The wet market is a petri dish for all types of bad things to develop therein for sure. But the question of whether, or not, there is also a bio-engineering component, using the market as an obvious cover, is no doubt being studied inside classified channels. If that turns out to be true, I think the most likely explanation is an unintentional release (i.e incompetence) accidentally introduced it into the wet market vs a deliberate unleashing.

That's a pretty good life motto actually ... and I agree that stupidity is no doubt a huge part of this. Operating the wet market as they do is prima facie. I don't think there's any conspiracies per se here ... just incompetence, a bad breeding ground in the market and, as you say, lots of stupidity mixed in.

Showed pictures of bats in cages, I doubt they were being sold as pets.

Genomic Study Points to Natural Origin of COVID-19

Genomic Study Points to Natural Origin of COVID-19 – NIH Director's Blog

Remember the link between other primates, (monkeys) to HIV. Here is an article about that;

HIV Originated With Monkeys, Not Chimps, Study Finds

origin - covid-19
 

Im thinking about writing a book - here is a synopsis: Large Communist Government want to be world leader. They devise a plan to introduce a deadly virus to their own people at the height of a New Year celebration. Millions are infected but show no signs of sickness for weeks. Once the NY celebration is over the infected people travel all around the globe returning to homes, visiting friends and family carrying the virus unknowingly. The Government understand that many of their citizens will die from the virus but they calculate that they could sacrifice millions and still have billions of citizens remaining. The virus infects millions and millions around the globe killing thousands. It a Pandemic that puts the large government as the leader of the world.

People have been eating bats for thousands of years - why is this happening now?

Fiction or non fiction - thoughts?

Even more interesting is this report from 1998 which details that a saved sample from a Bantu who died in the 1950's tested positive for HIV. This shows how a virus can be around for a long time then with a combination of a minor genetic change and opportunity it suddenly becomes wide spread. You might note the name of the expert who commented on this study for the article. Some guy named Fauci.

Since this 1998 report the back tracing of HIV has moved the timeline to earlier in the 20th century. If you are stuck on your couch and want to read a very detailed study with lots of diagrams and figures.. Origins of HIV and the AIDS Pandemic

You will see that both monkeys and apes were vectors of transmission to humans of slightly different strains of the virus. Ain't science great!

Where this virus originated really doesn’t matter at this point. The fact is that it is here. It is killing people and many villagers aren’t taking it seriously. That puts us all at risk. The pools are closed, the town squares should be too in my opinion. We can all make a difference simply by staying home.

Either way, I think you’d have a bestseller on your hands and probably end up with a series on Netflix.

I wrote a detailed analysis on this a few days ago and sent it out to my email list. Can’t post it here ,in full, as some of the content would not pass muster with the Moderator and I try to respect the TOS. My email, while informed, would be judged too provocative and speculative.

I’ll summarize here, in sanitized form. (no pun intended). There’s evidence of some bio-engineering, the NIH blog posted earlier notwithstanding. The question is … was the Wuhan virus released accidentally or deliberately? Your emerging novel, as cited above, takes the latter course.

I would just say this. Focus on the cost/benefit tradeoff. It’s gigantic.

The CCP is a communist totalitarian entity, where Judeo-Christian ethics are both irrelevant and perhaps more a source of amusement. CCP concludes take a few thousand domestic casualties now, & suffer from short term economic damage but the benefit it you literally shut down the USA … something no enemy in history has ever even come close to. Plus, there's going to be permanent long term impacts of this on our country with specifics still very much TBD. The CCP's strategy horizon is decades out, maybe even a century. America's horizon is much shorter term.

Anyway, if the CCP leadership took this course, it’s because they realized that the gravy train trade policies of prior Western leaders was coming to an end, and likely to stay that way. Hence, they felt the need to act.

FWIW, I still think the most likely explanation is an accidental release, not deliberate.

Where did it originate?
 

Irrelevant now. Do you realize that the so-called "Spanish flu" almost certainly didn't originate in Spain and may have originated in Kansas!!!!!!!!

What I can't figure is how Iran's top political ministers came down with the virus so early on, in Jan/Feb? Were they involved in the original acquisition of the virus and made mistakes handling it?
Iran health minister gets coronavirus, locals allege Tehran cover-up

Ohiobuckeye
 

I don’t agree or disagree with anybody. I assume we’re all guessing unless you work as high up as the president & he or anyone else knows exactly where it came from or how to cure it.Or they would have the cure by now & know where it came from for sure. To many people are doubting everything we were told to do because a lot of people are out running around like it’s just a headache, except for getting food for themselves! Stay the hell home!!!!