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-   -   How do landlords protect themselves from liability? (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/all-about-pets-120/how-do-landlords-protect-themselves-liability-337168/)

HandyGrandpap 12-04-2022 05:15 PM

How do landlords protect themselves from liability?
 
In light of the recent (sad) dog attack on the historic side, as many of the folks on this site are also landlords and many of the short term and long term renters often do have pets.
What is the best approach for us to ensure a banned breed does not show up, other than simply saying no pet?
Any suggestions?
See recent Forbes article linked, thank you

Dog Breeds Banned By Home Insurance Companies – Forbes Advisor

retiredguy123 12-04-2022 05:29 PM

You can prohibit pets, but you cannot prohibit service dogs. That would violate the Federal ADA law. I'm glad I am no longer a landlord.

BrianL99 12-04-2022 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HandyGrandpap (Post 2163342)
In light of the recent (sad) dog attack on the historic side, as many of the folks on this site are also landlords and many of the short term and long term renters often do have pets.
What is the best approach for us to ensure a banned breed does not show up, other than simply saying no pet?
Any suggestions?
See recent Forbes article linked, thank you

Dog Breeds Banned By Home Insurance Companies – Forbes Advisor

There is not enough money in the world, to convince me to rent to someone who has pet of any type. It's just not worth the risk.

retiredguy123 12-04-2022 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2163371)
There is not enough money in the world, to convince me to rent to someone who has pet of any type. It's just not worth the risk.

If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

OrangeBlossomBaby 12-04-2022 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2163373)
If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

Actually that isn't entirely true. That is true if it's someone trying to go into a store with an animal, but not with regards to housing.

If someone wants to LIVE in a building, with their animal - the landlord has the right to require that the person show evidence that he has an actual disability AND that the animal is trained to perform a service in direct relation to that specific disability.

Such as a dog that is trained to detect the onset of an epileptic seizure - the person has to provide documentation showing that he actually suffers from epileptic seizures, AND that the dog is specifically trained to detect the onset of them.

This is the only time that the right of the property owner outweighs a claim of the animal's handler.

kkingston57 12-04-2022 11:01 PM

Was in the insurance adjusting business. In Florida owner of the dog is responsible for dog bites and laws make it easy for an injured person to make a claim against the dog owner. Property owner can have some responsibility. Suggest that if you have a renter with a dog, make sure that the renter does have good(with high limits) liability insurance that does not have an exclsion for dog bites and/or doge bites by certain breeds. If a bad dog bite occurs on your rented property, chances of getting sued are high and you would want to make sure that your own insurance company will protect you.

kkingston57 12-04-2022 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2163373)
If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

Odds of a true service dog biting someone is low. Brother had a trained/certified service dog and that dog was trained for 18 months and had to have certain charactersistics, such as dog will not bark.

BrianL99 12-05-2022 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2163403)
Actually that isn't entirely true. That is true if it's someone trying to go into a store with an animal, but not with regards to housing.

If someone wants to LIVE in a building, with their animal - the landlord has the right to require that the person show evidence that he has an actual disability AND that the animal is trained to perform a service in direct relation to that specific disability.

Such as a dog that is trained to detect the onset of an epileptic seizure - the person has to provide documentation showing that he actually suffers from epileptic seizures, AND that the dog is specifically trained to detect the onset of them.

This is the only time that the right of the property owner outweighs a claim of the animal's handler.

I would suggest you do further research, because your response is flat out, wrong.

Florida is one of the most liberal states when it comes to Service Dogs or ESA's. A person with a so called "disability", need only have a tele-health consultation with an out-of state Social Worker, who can then certify the "need" and the animal needs NO special training. (Fla. Stat. § 413.08 (2022).), (Fla. Stat. § 760.27(2) (2022).)

Florida Passes New 2020 Law for Emotional Support Animals: What Every ESA Owner Needs to Know - ESA Doctors

Florida Laws on Service Dogs and Emotional Support Animals | Nolo


New Emotional Support Animal Law Florida 2020 - What it Means for Landlords and Condo Residents with an ESA Dog or Cat | CondoBlackBook Blog

Papa_lecki 12-05-2022 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2163432)
I would suggest you do further research, because your response is flat out, wrong.

Florida is one of the most liberal states when it comes to Service Dogs or ESA's. A person with a so called "disability", need only have a tele-health consultation with an out-of state Social Worker, who can then certify the "need" and the animal needs NO special training. (Fla. Stat. § 413.08 (2022).), (Fla. Stat. § 760.27(2) (2022).)

Florida Passes New 2020 Law for Emotional Support Animals: What Every ESA Owner Needs to Know - ESA Doctors

Florida Laws on Service Dogs and Emotional Support Animals | Nolo


New Emotional Support Animal Law Florida 2020 - What it Means for Landlords and Condo Residents with an ESA Dog or Cat | CondoBlackBook Blog

Getting a dog ESA certified is easy. The dog doesn’t get certified, the owner gets a doctor note saying they need an ESA. Note, the A in ESA is ANIMAL, so you can have an Emotional Support Ferret.
NOW - I am not a lawyer - but I would think if someone presents an ESA certificate, landlord might be better protected legally, with a defense that you had no choice.
Doesn’t mean you wont get sued though.

OrangeBlossomBaby 12-05-2022 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa_lecki (Post 2163435)
Getting a dog ESA certified is easy. The dog doesn’t get certified, the owner gets a doctor note saying they need an ESA. Note, the A in ESA is ANIMAL, so you can have an Emotional Support Ferret.
NOW - I am not a lawyer - but I would think if someone presents an ESA certificate, landlord might be better protected legally, with a defense that you had no choice.
Doesn’t mean you wont get sued though.

An "emotional support animal" is not a Service Animal. They mean different things, and have to follow different rules. Someone was referring to a Service Animal. I responded to that post. You want to add more criteria or nitpick - okay.

So now let's talk about whether or not a renter is allowed to bring little red wagons into their rented living rooms.

Because - changing topics to prove a point that no one is challenging seems to be all the rage.

retiredguy123 12-05-2022 09:25 AM

I think the important point is that, if you are a landlord today, you may not want a dog living in your house. But, you may not be able to prevent it from happening. That is one reason why I am glad that I am not landlord. When I owned and managed rental property, I didn't allow any dogs or cats at all, and it had nothing to do with liability.

ElDiabloJoe 12-05-2022 11:00 AM

Two best ways of protecting oneself as a landlord/lady:

1. Thorough credit/background/reference/criminal history check;
2. Solid thorough rental agreement contract.

I used one in the back of the Nolo Press book for California landlords. You can cut/paste clauses to meet your needs. I even had clauses regarding acknowledging that it was understood by all parties that the risk of secondhand smoke from neighbor's balconies or porches was both uncontrollable and an assumed risk by the renters. I'm certain there were clauses regarding animal bites, flea and tick (Lyme disease) exposures, etc.

Starting point: Landlord Books - Nolo

valuemkt 12-05-2022 12:58 PM

Ways to protect yourself and limit liability: Do not allow pets; Do not provide a golf cart; Do not allow smokers; Verify identities of potential residents via current drivers license; do background checks at renters expense; Do your own background check via google and facebook; rent only to US citizens; have iron clad lease; have a sufficient umbrella policy.

dougjb 12-05-2022 03:50 PM

I love this....reading all the non-lawyers giving legal advice (which, by the way, is a felony in the state of Florida).

I love those who say use an "iron clad" lease. No, thank about it. Who would want a lease that is full of holes. So, the expression "iron clad" is merely a wish...not a reality.

Then, there are those who cut and paste from a book meant for a different jurisdiction and come up with...voila...the lease to beat all leases. Perhaps a potential Florida landlord might want to review the substantial statutory provisions related to landlord/tenant law.

While there are legitimate methods for limiting risk, no method is foolproof! Moreover, some of it requires a potential landlord to lay out money, for the creation of legal entities, proper insurance coverage and proper evaluation of tenants. But, if one takes the cheepo method of attempting to limit risk and do it themselves to save money, one should recognize that the "legal" methods one comes up for free....is worth just about as much as one paid for it.

This whole thread makes me want to go and read a book on self-administered heart operations for my clogged arteries!

retiredguy123 12-05-2022 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougjb (Post 2163640)
I love this....reading all the non-lawyers giving legal advice (which, by the way, is a felony in the state of Florida).

I love those who say use an "iron clad" lease. No, thank about it. Who would want a lease that is full of holes. So, the expression "iron clad" is merely a wish...not a reality.

Then, there are those who cut and paste from a book meant for a different jurisdiction and come up with...voila...the lease to beat all leases. Perhaps a potential Florida landlord might want to review the substantial statutory provisions related to landlord/tenant law.

While there are legitimate methods for limiting risk, no method is foolproof! Moreover, some of it requires a potential landlord to lay out money, for the creation of legal entities, proper insurance coverage and proper evaluation of tenants. But, if one takes the cheepo method of attempting to limit risk and do it themselves to save money, one should recognize that the "legal" methods one comes up for free....is worth just about as much as one paid for it.

This whole thread makes me want to go and read a book on self-administered heart operations for my clogged arteries!

It's not a crime to give legal advice unless you charge money for it.

Papa_lecki 12-05-2022 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2163485)
An "emotional support animal" is not a Service Animal. They mean different things, and have to follow different rules. Someone was referring to a Service Animal. I responded to that post. You want to add more criteria or nitpick - okay.

So now let's talk about whether or not a renter is allowed to bring little red wagons into their rented living rooms.

Because - changing topics to prove a point that no one is challenging seems to be all the rage.

Someone who has an ESA can not be discriminated against for housing….

“The new rules in Florida are similar in many ways to Federal Fair Housing rules for emotional support animals and borrow many of the same concepts. An emotional support animal in Florida is an animal that provides assistance or therapeutic emotional support to its owner by its mere presence. An ESA does not need any special training to work or perform tasks for its owner.

Florida’s laws prohibit housing providers from discriminating against tenants with a need for an emotional support animal. ESA owners are allowed to live with their animal companions as “reasonable accommodation”, even in buildings that generally prohibit pets.”

Papa_lecki 12-05-2022 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougjb (Post 2163640)
I love this....reading all the non-lawyers giving legal advice (which, by the way, is a felony in the state of Florida).

All those who gave posters legal advice to not pay a contractor up front, before entering into a contract, apparently committed a felony.

Ski Bum 12-06-2022 05:14 AM

Lots of confusion here, mostly because the law and how it is applied is not entirely clear. First, if you actually ready the Statute, it applies to people who own three or more rental properties. ESA's are treated much the same way as service animals, and there is no documentation needed. Most importantly, the landlord has the right to make reasonable accommodations and has to be given the time to do so. If a renter shows up with a ESA llama, the landlord has the right to prepare the home for the llama. As in covering floors and furniture, removing breakable items, etc.

So on check in, the renter has this big hairy llama, and you to them that you will call them when you have the home ready. Then the renter does what? Sues you? They should have been up front about their fragile emotional state and their need for the llama.

Of course, it would be best if these people would just rent pet friendly accommodations. And more importantly, change the law to clearly protect property rights.

BrianL99 12-06-2022 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski Bum (Post 2163728)
Lots of confusion here, mostly because the law and how it is applied is not entirely clear. First, if you actually ready the Statute, it applies to people who own three or more rental properties. ESA's are treated much the same way as service animals, and there is no documentation needed. Most importantly, the landlord has the right to make reasonable accommodations and has to be given the time to do so. If a renter shows up with a ESA llama, the landlord has the right to prepare the home for the llama. As in covering floors and furniture, removing breakable items, etc.

So on check in, the renter has this big hairy llama, and you to them that you will call them when you have the home ready. Then the renter does what? Sues you? They should have been up front about their fragile emotional state and their need for the llama.

Of course, it would be best if these people would just rent pet friendly accommodations. And more importantly, change the law to clearly protect property rights.

I hope no unsuspecting Landlord reads that and believes it to be accurate.

Worldseries27 12-06-2022 06:04 AM

Perry mason
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangeblossombaby (Post 2163403)
actually that isn't entirely true. That is true if it's someone trying to go into a store with an animal, but not with regards to housing.

If someone wants to live in a building, with their animal - the landlord has the right to require that the person show evidence that he has an actual disability and that the animal is trained to perform a service in direct relation to that specific disability.

Such as a dog that is trained to detect the onset of an epileptic seizure - the person has to provide documentation showing that he actually suffers from epileptic seizures, and that the dog is specifically trained to detect the onset of them.

This is the only time that the right of the property owner outweighs a claim of the animal's handler.

and thats why all tenants are screened by your insured real estate agent and lawyer

Worldseries27 12-06-2022 06:09 AM

Handy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by handygrandpap (Post 2163342)
in light of the recent (sad) dog attack on the historic side, as many of the folks on this site are also landlords and many of the short term and long term renters often do have pets.
What is the best approach for us to ensure a banned breed does not show up, other than simply saying no pet?
Any suggestions?
See recent forbes article linked, thank you

dog breeds banned by home insurance companies – forbes advisor

do the due diligences above but in the beginning, middle & end purchase a great umbrella ☔ policy. Now you can go to sleep

Worldseries27 12-06-2022 07:10 AM

That'll do pig, that'll do
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ski bum (Post 2163728)
lots of confusion here, mostly because the law and how it is applied is not entirely clear. First, if you actually ready the statute, it applies to people who own three or more rental properties. Esa's are treated much the same way as service animals, and there is no documentation needed. Most importantly, the landlord has the right to make reasonable accommodations and has to be given the time to do so. If a renter shows up with a esa llama, the landlord has the right to prepare the home for the llama. As in covering floors and furniture, removing breakable items, etc.

So on check in, the renter has this big hairy llama, and you to them that you will call them when you have the home ready. Then the renter does what? Sues you? They should have been up front about their fragile emotional state and their need for the llama.

Of course, it would be best if these people would just rent pet friendly accommodations. And more importantly, change the law to clearly protect property rights.

got a place

TCRSO 12-06-2022 07:20 AM

As a general rule, you are not liable for the acts of a renter's dog unless you have reason to believe the dog is aggressive or otherwise dangerous. Our lease requires the renter to disclose (a) the dog's breed and weight; (b) whether the dog has ever behaved aggressively toward people or other animals; (c) whether the dog has accidentally caused injury to any person or animal (e.g. tripping a person or injuring another animal while playing). The lease also requires notification within 24 hours, if, during the lease period, the dog commits any of the act described in (b) or (c). A further condition is that we personally meet and interact with the dog. Typically, Homeowners Insurance Polices exclude coverage for injuries caused by animals. Accordingly, we require renters to have Rental Insurance and provide a copy of the policy (this policy should cover liability for the dog's acts). It is important to receive a copy of the policy to confirm that the renters disclosed the dog on the application and it is not a breed that the insurance company excludes from coverage.

Dilligas 12-06-2022 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2163373)
If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

You can require the service dog credentials, not just take their word. Service pets must go through extensive training.

msilagy 12-06-2022 07:36 AM

Dogs aside, renting a home with a golf cart boggles my mind. The liability falls back on the owner. My opinion, however many do it.

retiredguy123 12-06-2022 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilligas (Post 2163752)
You can require the service dog credentials, not just take their word. Service pets must go through extensive training.

I would suggest reading the Federal ADA (Americans with Disabilities) law. You cannot ask for credentials, and the owner can do his/her own training. No extensive or third party training is required. You can only ask two questions:

1. Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
2. What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?

If you ask any other questions, you could be violating the Federal law.

Rodneysblue 12-06-2022 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2163373)
If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

Can you ask for certification?

Joe C. 12-06-2022 08:28 AM

IMHO, the property owner always seems to be the underdog ..... the one who has less rights than the renter.
If you own a motor vehicle, you are required by law to have adequate insurance. Maybe the animal owner should have insurance to cover any damage caused by the animal.

retiredguy123 12-06-2022 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodneysblue (Post 2163785)
Can you ask for certification?

No. See Post No. 26.

ElDiabloJoe 12-06-2022 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dougjb (Post 2163640)
I love this....reading all the non-lawyers giving legal advice (which, by the way, is a felony in the state of Florida).

I love those who say use an "iron clad" lease. No, thank about it. Who would want a lease that is full of holes. So, the expression "iron clad" is merely a wish...not a reality.

Then, there are those who cut and paste from a book meant for a different jurisdiction and come up with...voila...the lease to beat all leases. Perhaps a potential Florida landlord might want to review the substantial statutory provisions related to landlord/tenant law.

While there are legitimate methods for limiting risk, no method is foolproof! Moreover, some of it requires a potential landlord to lay out money, for the creation of legal entities, proper insurance coverage and proper evaluation of tenants. But, if one takes the cheepo method of attempting to limit risk and do it themselves to save money, one should recognize that the "legal" methods one comes up for free....is worth just about as much as one paid for it.

This whole thread makes me want to go and read a book on self-administered heart operations for my clogged arteries!

Wow, all critique and nothing helpful. Probably how you are IRL also. That means In Real Life, Boomer.

Papa_lecki 12-06-2022 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ski Bum (Post 2163728)
If a renter shows up with a ESA llama, the landlord has the right to prepare the home for the llama. As in covering floors and furniture, removing breakable items, etc.

So on check in, the renter has this big hairy llama, and you to them that you will call them when you have the home ready. Then the renter does what? Sues you? They should have been up front about their fragile emotional state and their need for the llama.

What about an Emotional Support Alligator? - yes, it happened.

Emotional support alligator draws crowds at Philadelphia'''s Love Park | CNN

Nucky 12-07-2022 11:22 AM

Tenants in many respects are just like children. Their job is to push the boundaries but you as a landlord have one chance to make a first impression. During that chance they need to calculate in their head that the boss man is no joke and that crossing him will bring bad results and that they would be better taking their chances with a landlord elsewhere.

When you are showing them the house check them and the car out for evidence of Rover. Let them know from the beginning that they are in competition with another person for the home. This way you have a built in way out.

I learned this lesson the hard way. I’m definitely not built to be a landlord under any circumstances. I love dogs, not in a rental though. Sorry Spot! Get lost.

Two Bills 12-07-2022 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2163373)
If the tenant says it's a service dog, you don't have a choice. You cannot ban service dogs.

Let the dog stay.
Chuck out the dog owner! :shrug:

Daddymac 12-07-2022 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2163403)
Actually that isn't entirely true. That is true if it's someone trying to go into a store with an animal, but not with regards to housing.

If someone wants to LIVE in a building, with their animal - the landlord has the right to require that the person show evidence that he has an actual disability AND that the animal is trained to perform a service in direct relation to that specific disability.

Such as a dog that is trained to detect the onset of an epileptic seizure - the person has to provide documentation showing that he actually suffers from epileptic seizures, AND that the dog is
specifically trained to detect the onset of them.

This is the only time that the right of the property owner outweighs a claim of the animal's handler.

This would violate HIPAA laws.... And then comes the lawsuit!!

keepsake 12-14-2022 10:19 PM

Can the landlord demand the renter (with the service animal) buy renter's insurance coverage and name the landlord as insured ?

blueash 12-15-2022 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddymac (Post 2164180)
This would violate HIPAA laws.... And then comes the lawsuit!!

You couldn't be more wrong [add obligatory !!]
HIPAA only applies to health care entities not to private persons, or landlords, or newspapers, or gossiping neighbors.

Your Rights Under HIPAA | HHS.gov.


Who Must Follow These Laws
We call the entities that must follow the HIPAA regulations "covered entities."

Covered entities include:

Health Plans, including health insurance companies, HMOs, company health plans, and certain government programs that pay for health care, such as Medicare and Medicaid.
Most Health Care Providers—those that conduct certain business electronically, such as electronically billing your health insurance—including most doctors, clinics, hospitals, psychologists, chiropractors, nursing homes, pharmacies, and dentists.
Health Care Clearinghouses—entities that process nonstandard health information they receive from another entity into a standard (i.e., standard electronic format or data content), or vice versa.

retiredguy123 12-15-2022 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keepsake (Post 2166488)
Can the landlord demand the renter (with the service animal) buy renter's insurance coverage and name the landlord as insured ?

I doubt it. The landlord cannot even charge a security deposit for a service dog.

Two Bills 12-15-2022 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2166557)
I doubt it. The landlord cannot even charge a security deposit for a service dog.

How about an allergy cleaning fee on departure, when a dog has been present?

retiredguy123 12-15-2022 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Bills (Post 2166568)
How about an allergy cleaning fee on departure, when a dog has been present?

I don't think that you can charge the owner of a service animal any fees that you wouldn't charge a tenant who has no pets. The law considers it discrimination to charge extra for having a service animal.

Bay Kid 12-15-2022 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retiredguy123 (Post 2166573)
I don't think that you can charge the owner of a service animal any fees that you wouldn't charge a tenant who has no pets. The law considers it discrimination to charge extra for having a service animal.

The laws don't protect the landlord. I had a tenant a few years back w/a service dog. I was stuck and when they left the home was trashed.


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