Lets' be careful----toss up question
 

Almost every time there is a discussion about police enforcing automobile or golf cart speed in The Villages, there is a flurry of comment that the police apparently have nothing better to do. It's posted that they are doing it to raise money for the county coffers. The comments read like a "us versus them" story.

Here's my question (questions). At what amount of speed over the limit should tickets be given? 10, 20, 30 over, or what? Or, should no tickets be given in The Villages.

If unregistered golf carts are permitted to travel a maximum of 19.5 miles per hour, at what speed should they be ticketed? 21, 33, 43 or what? Or should police mind their own business and leave all golf carts alone?

I am interested in replies from those who have complained about the police enforcing the speed laws. :popcorn:

Nah
 

Don't feel that law enforcement needs to issue citations. I saw 1 guy last summer come out of the bank using a blind persons cane. Then he gets in his golf cart and drives away. Now I REALLY don't feel as though he should be ticketed if he exceeds the non-posted golf cart speed limit. Come on - he probably couldn't see it anyway. True Story.

I know some cops and they usually say that they will give leeway to a highway speed of 9 mph over (in our area that would be 74 max). But they are more strict on smaller side roads.

In TV I would give golf carts leeway up to 23 mph.

I'd like them to concentrate more on reckless actions and maybe more education on round-a-bouts. What I mean is, if they see a bad roundabout move, pull the person over and explain what they did and how dangerous it is. Give them a warning (into the system so they can look it up if they stop them again). I personally think the round-a-bout moves are more dangerous than speeding down the straight away.

Have you been taking lessons from Fumar, F16 1UB? I suppose he would only want tickets if there were dogs in the golf carts?

It depends on the circumstances to me about when cops should give tickets. Definitely in the school zones at the proper times BUT it also seems like there are areas in the Villages-- like on Belvedere in front of the high school-- where almost all the cars trucks and golf carts are doing better than the 20 m.p.h. speed limit for the school zone. It is a different story on CR466 where I see them pulling over speeders in their vehicles quite often in the school zones.

If a golf cart is zooming down a stretch that is barren of any other kind of traffic the driver should have some leeway. Now if he/she is speeding around in the crowded squares, nail the person.

Why do we have rules/laws?
 

As a teacher, my second grade students most recent writing example had to be an explanation. I gave them this topic.... Why we have rules at school....
Think about it!

I agree completely with Russ. The purpose of all traffic laws and their enforcement is public safety. Police need to prioritize what laws they are to enforce and how strictly they are to be enforced based on how much of a danger the violation puts the public in. Quite frankly, I don't see a golf cart going 23 mph versus 20 mph as very much of a danger at all. I would MUCH rather have the officer spend his/her time making sure that the cars going through the roundabouts follow the rules. This represents a much bigger threat to my safety than a golf cart passing me.

I have never come close to having my safety feel threatened by a speeding golf cart. On the other hand I have had far too many close calls on roundabouts with people thinking that they can use the outer loop regardless of where they want to go.

I feel that sometimes the police are just lazy in their law enforcement philosophy. Since the technology exists to make a black and white citation of speeding (with radar guns), they choose to put all of the emphasis on that versus having to observe violations such as traffic circle scofflaws where the citation and potential follow-up legal court appearance is more difficult.

I agree with Russ. The laws are there for a reason....we all know the rules, so follow them and there won't be a problem. If you break them, be willing to pay the price. And yes, I do believe people should be ticketed, this applies to golf carts and cars alike. Am I saying that I am the perfect driver, absolutely not...sometimes I have a heavy foot....I got a ticket my second week of living here, but I paid it without complaining because I was in the wrong.

A guy goes in a store with a gun robs it and only gets $3, should he be let off because he only got $3? The law is the law! If you you can't pay the fine, don't do the crime!

I would allow about 10% before giving a ticket. So 22 mph on golf carts, 55 in a 50 zone, 77 in a 70 etc. A concept some folks have a hard time understanding is the law is the law. Going 55 in a 50 mph zone you could pass most cops without a problem. (except in Waldo and Starky) There 51 in a 50 gets you a ticket. But 120 in a 50 will get you handcuffed and jail time.

So yes there are degrees of breaking the law. Getting only $3 in a robbery is not the question. It could be $3 or $300,000. It is doing the robbery with a gun vs a baseball bat. One gets you probation, the other gets you jail time. Unless of course you use either weapon. Then the degree of the crime changes.

I've seen this concept of percentages used before. The problem with it is that it is not consistent with the danger that results. Taking into account reaction time, breaking distances and resulting damages based on the size of the vehicle, a 2 ton vehicle going 77 versus 70 is FAR more lethal than a golf cart going 22 versus 20. To treat them both as equal threats to public safety does not make any sense.

Police, I'm told and have seen myself, usually will pull over the driver who is driving aggressively or erratically on the road even though others are also exceeding the speed limit, but otherwise driving smoothly.

If I was a cop and I saw a cart going a bit over the limit but otherwise driving safely I would probably give him a pass, but if I saw him swerving around legal carts going the limit or failing to slow around recreational participants, I would nab him.

I vote for 23 mph - our cart will do 22.5 mph. I don't normally drive with the pedal to the metal but could if the boss said to get a move on.


.

Anytime there is a discussion on speed, there is goody two shoes who drives 5 mph under the limit in the passing lane and won't let traffic by and will rant and rave about people shouldn't be in a hurry. I agree with I2ridehd that 10% plus is reasonable in good weather conditions. Two or three mph + or - can be contributed to police radar or laser error, speedometer error, or a combination of both. If you have a cart that will go exactly 19.9 mph and think anything over at all should be given a ticket, then you will get one when you have a 15 to 20 mph tail wind. I have a speedometer on mine that reads to .1 mph and can see the difference heading into the wind and away from the wind, not to mention up or down hill.

This discussion brings back the memory of my high school driving instructor, Mr. Torpey. He once asked us a question that I have not forgotten. He asked what he should do if the traffic on the road outside our school was traveling at 45 mph when the limit was 40 mph. Because we were all trying to make sure we got our licenses, we answered 40. Nope, he replied. To go 40 would create more problems than doing 45 and keeping with the flow of traffic.

I think law enforcement personnel keep that in mind when determining whether to ticket someone or not. I think if you're traveling with the flow of traffic and not aggressively or unsafely, they will let you slide with a few mph over the limit. (Except in a school zone!!!!)

Hi, my name is Alan and I have an illegal cart........
 

I agree with most of the posts here regarding golf cart speed. I personally see no safety issue caused by a cart that goes 21-23MPH. (Yes, yes, yes I know it is no longer a golf cart). I personally did not soup up my cart so I could pass other villagers. The cart is a 02 Club Car. It topped out at 20 MPH as it should by design on flats. The issue with this cart was that if it was into the wind or up a slight grade the speed would drop to 17-18 MPH, how about 15 MPH through the mountains of Mallory. This always would bug me as I felt like I was holding up carts that can go 19-20 MPH all the time.

What I discovered is there no easy or inexpensive solution to this. I did as others who wish to resolve this do and put in a high speed motor ($400) which gets the cart up hills of Mallory at 18 MPH and it can maintain 20 on minor grades. The problem with that is it solution is now the cart goes 23-24 on flats. I have a speed ohmmeter and I keep it less that 21 when I am travelling on a road, e.g., Morse north of 466 to avoid speed traps. I also have a personal rule that I will never pass a cart going the speed limit (about 20 MPH) even if I can. Pulling me over for going 22MPH and giving me a ticket does not raise safety on the cart paths in TV one bit IMO.

With that said, I think a safety issue is how the carts that go 24-25 MPH are driven. Some drivers run up on your tail even as as you are going 20 dodging in and out looking to pass every cart they can. Have you ever witnessed a cart passing 3 to 5 carts all the way up Beuna Vista through the Palmer stretch. very scary, makes my blood boil I must admit.

If the police wish to crack down on golf cart speeding/safety, buy 4 unmarked carts that go 19.9MPH. Drive them up and down Morse and BV by Palmer pulling over everyone who passes passes them.....

i drive a lsv and i was passed 3 times today by golf carts on rio grande. some of these carts are really out of control.

Makes sense to me.

As a teacher, you shouldn't have written that sentence. :sad:

It is my understanding a golf cart going 25MPH in a 25MPH zone it is not ticketed for speeding. After all, it is not exceeding the limit. It is ticketed for not being properly registered, insured or equipped. This is more serious than a speeding ticket and requires the offender to appear in court.

A golf cart capable of exceeding 20MPH is in violation at any speed. Capable is the key word and it is clearly spelled out in Florida Statutes. If such a cart is involved in an accident, regardless of speed or fault, the police and the insurance adjuster will check it throughly.

BTW, there are some cart repair firms that will no longer make any adjustments that will enable the cart to exceed 20MPH.

In line with what you stated above, I thought you and others would be interested in the following article:

http://www.tampastpetersburginjuryla...residents.html

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/cursorm...les/9/4826.gif

I agree with Russ and Ritchie. Cut them a break. They should have better things to do.:thumbup::thumbup:

Why the rush?

Its a macho thing.

How about the question. At what speed do you not cut them a break? How much over the limit?.

If the police have everyone going through the roundabouts in full compliance then they can start to ticket golf carts going 25 since 5 mph over seems to be a generally recognized margin that is given to autos.

I have a 2010 EZ Go that I bought new! I've never done anything to it to speed it up but it goes 23 (actually 22.9) mph.What are my options?

I think a lot has to do with the training of law enforcement officers and how much discretion they have in issuing citations. The law is the law so anything over the posted speed limit makes you 'fair game' to be stopped. I support stopping people (cars and golf carts) breaking the law. One problem is that there are so many, which one does the officer stop? That's where their judgment come in. The aggressive, reckless, belligerent, freely giving out one finger salutes, etc., driver(s) get stopped over the polite, careful but 'fast' driver. Once someone is stopped, whether a verbal warning, written warning, or ticket is given depends (not in any order of importance) on the degree of violation (3 miles over limit vs 10 miles over limit), attitude, cooperation, demeanor, other observed driving behaviors and/or violations, and (of course) their past record. This requires a fairly sophisticated degree of judgment and discretion on the part of the officer involved. Most are trained and ready for that but a few are not. As far as traffic circle law enforcement goes, a few more dash cams and 'red light cameras' will take care of problems caused by 'citizens' wanting to fight those tickets in court.

Maybe, just maybe, a golf cart path should be used for a true golf cart. If anyone wants a road legal then they should be restricted to 'THE ROADS'. That way the people who are trying to enjoy their retirement at a peaceful pace (and who came here for that reason) can enjoy and the fast pace ones can just go as fast as they want on the roads without holding anyone up.
aj

Tickets
 

Just some info I was given at diner the other night. A lady went over to pay her ticket. She was told it would take a while for her fine to be posted.Reason being PD has found a cash cow in TV. They're at least a week behind because of the number of tickets being handed out in TV. Tickets equal a LOT of money. This doesn't mean they're all from TV residents. That's why they target Morse and BuenaVista so much. I think the golf cart situation has calmed a lot. But the problem is once a GC goes over the GC legal limit it's not a golf cart. Therefore the fine is more MONEY then the speeding ticket would be. Question for those in the know. If you get a ticket for unregister motor vehicle on your GC what does the insurance company do? And does it go on your liscence since you don't need a liscence to drive a GC. But if your going over 19.9 it not considered a GC ? So then you need a liscense.

I don't get it ???
 

I just don't get it.... I've driven all over TV, in my golf cart and just don't see the issues that are discussed on this forum. Driving a golf cart is no different than driving a car. People do boneheaded things in carts; they do boneheaded things in cars... including me! Doesn't matter if I'm going 19.92543 or 29.93465 in my cart. When I do something stupid, I wave and say "sorry". I normally get a return wave and a smile.

TV is the safest place I have ever lived, in every respect!

So, to answer the question, at what speed should the police ticket golf carts? I don't care about speed, if the cart is driven reasonably; with the flow and not recklessly... the police should have more important issues to address.

Just my opinion and I know it'll be unpopular on here... But, here's my :wave:and "sorry".

:agree:

I agree. After spending last weekend in TV, I've changed my mind on the speeding cart issue. On 4 separate occasions I was cutoff on roundabouts by speeders, one of which being a younger person in a souped up vehicle. I am not the slowest driver and tend to have a bit of a lead foot, but I always think about what I'm doing before entering the roundabout. I would rather have the police put more of their attention on the roads than on carts. I do recognize a need to control cart speed to a degree, and 23 / 24mph seems reasonable to me. While I think a police presence is a good thing that makes us all feel safer, there is also a limit. I want to relax and enjoy TV, not wonder if someone is watching at every corner. and waiting to punish me for every mistake I may make. I may be wrong, but that's just the way I feel.

I agree memason - I just don't get the reaction against golf carts or LSVs going faster than 20 mph as long as they are being driven non-aggresively. What is it about someone passing you that makes you resent the other driver? When I am passed it makes me feel good that I am no longer holding the other person up and I am now free to slow down if there is something that attracts my attention.

To the people wanting LSVs banned from cart paths - be careful for what you wish. Do you really want a parade of LSVs cruising up Buena Vista at 25 mph with a line of cars and trucks behind them jockeying for position to get by? I suspect that when you are one of the ones caught in the parade that you would wish that the LSVs were back on the cart paths.

A traffic enforcement area becomes a "cash cow" only when there is an abundance of motorists violating the law. The violations come before the cash.

If the IRS found a group of people in a specific area who were evading their taxes and fined them, would that be a cash cow or enforcement of tax laws.

Again, I think it's important to remember that police officers do only what they are told to do by their superiors who are told what to do by the officials that you elect. Can you imaging an office saying to the captain, "No sir I don't agree with giving tickets in The Villages, so I won't be doing that today."

YOU ELECT THE SHERIFF. THE CONSTITUTION PROVIDES THAT THE TOP LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN A COUNTY IS SUBJECT TO THE VOTERS. THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

What you say in the second part of your post does not refute the notion that fining golf cart owners may be a cash cow. In fact, it makes it more likely. Certainly the police officer has no direct motivation for increasing cash flow into the treasury, but the official who is at the top of the command chain may.

As to the notion that the violations come before the cash, the correct order of thinking should be public safety comes before violation enforcement which comes before cash. When looked at in that order, priority should be given to the violations that most endanger public safety. It would be hard to convince a reasonable thinking person that golf carts whizzing by another golf cart at a speed delta of 3 mph constitutes as much of a threat to public safety as what happens in the roundabouts on a regular basis.

All this discussion about "cash cows" forgets one thing. The law, in Florida, states that golf carts must only have a max speed of under 20mph. It's the law. If it's annoying, then maybe getting the law changed is in order. Honestly, as others have said, if there weren't people speeding, and most probably, lots of them, the law enforcement officials wouldn't have any opportunity to ticket. Slow down, enjoy the scenery. Drive safely, follow the rules of the road, in your cart and in your car. Just the other day, there was a golf cart, not street legal, cruising in the auto lane on Stillwater Trail. We have lots of visitors here at this time of the year, some new residents, some on LSP's, others guests and they might not be aware of some of the "rules of the road" around here. Be alert and stay safe.....and if you have your grandkids with you, please, obey speed and traffic laws, you're setting the example.

Who's job is it to decide if the public safety is in jeopardy, the motorist or law enforcement? The laws being made by elected officials who are entrusted with looking after public safety.

In the four years that I was a deputy sheriff, I had about 2 million law breakers tell me they were doing nothing wrong. I'm wondering if I should have said, "Oh, I'm sorry to have bothered you, please be on your way and I'll be more careful the next time."

jlk

The point that a lot of slow drivers are missing is that fast drivers clearly have above-average vehicle-handling skills. Sure, it’s foggy out there, the roads are slick, my tires are bald and I have macular degeneration, but none of this should stop me speeding as I am a superior driver.

Similarly, I am an above-average shopper, so I can shop-lift with impunity. I just explain this to the store-detective and he lets me take my loaded cart straight from the shelves to the car park, avoiding that pesky checkout line.

Where’s the harm? Okay, so shoplifting forces stores to put up prices to cover the losses, but that only affects those who pay for their groceries, not me. Likewise, when I write-off my car and have to spend six months in intensive care, that puts up motor and health insurance. But for everyone, not just me.

My souped-up Mustang can do 140 mph – it would be a crime to go down Buena Vista at anything less than 120.

So drive every day as if it is your last – with people like me on the roads, it may well be.

Perhaps my driving situation is unique, but in the last year the number of close calls that I've had resulting from a golf cart speeding and putting me in danger is zero. I haven't even had a situation that remotely threatened my safety. On the other hand, I can't even begin to count the number of times I have had close calls in the roundabouts. So, in my opinion, if it is the police's job to put enforcement where the most risk is, they are failing in their job miserably.

Also, note that this is not a matter of disputing whether laws are broken - it is a matter of using police enforcement to maximize public safety.

In my short time in TV that has been my experience exactly NJ. I've only seen about 3-4 accident sites but they have all been roundabout crashes. Nothing serious fortunately.

I think reasonableness is the key.