Originally Posted by FredMitchell (Post 2276880)

Learn to cook sous vide. I favor the Sous Vide Supreme with ten years of trouble-free service. The "stick circulators" are cheaper, but have moving parts that can fail and they make some noise in use. Great steaks however you like them. The same for any meat, including cuts like chuck steak which requires a good 48-72 hour cook to be tender, yet still cooked rare to medium rare. The beauty of it is that you will always end up with your protein cooked to exactly what you wanted and it is not time sensitive, so you take out the meat and give it a 60-120 second sear when everything else in your meal is ready.

Google "sous vide" to learn more. If you go that route, it is hard to beat Jason Logsdon's "Modernist Cooking Sous Vide" for learning and guidance.

Originally Posted by ithos (Post 2276840)

You nailed it. You are believers. Kind of like a religion because you don't have credible science to back it up.

I wasn't going to post anything until I read some of the messages which were outrageous.

Plants will kill you, man.
Unsaturated fats and carbohydrates are literally poison
Meat is food - Plants are drugs, medicine and pesticides

If people are going to post demonstrably false statements that can persuade others to follow their terrible advice, then don't be surprised to see messages that shine the light of truth on the topic using scientific and fact based evidence.

Originally Posted by ithos (Post 2276775)

Just about any diet can cherry pick bio markers that may improve after starting it. But that is not a valid scientific method to determine its true impact on health. Neither are anecdotal claims.

Several have mentioned that plants are bad for humans. This is the probably the most ridiculous idea ever posted on TOV. And anyone who believes that is placing their prejudices above overwhelming rational and science based evidence. Our bodies need fiber and animal protein has none. Only plants have it. And most of the vitamins and minerals you receive from eating meat is because the animals get them from eating plants or from being exposed to water and soil like our ancestors were when they gathered food in the wild. There only a few possible medical reasons to avoid some plants such as the rare case of epilepsy.
Diet and nutrition | Epilepsy Society

There is a site, pubmed.gov, which posts most of the medical literature and studies from established and credentialed organizations. Any medical or diet recommendations should should be accompanied with multiple citations from this site or other renowned medical organizations. One advantage of meatless diets not often discussed is the it takes 20 times more water to produce a calorie of protein from meat than it does a plant. Calculating water footprints of animal, plant proteins

And what about heart disease? There is only one program for heart disease reversal that is reimbursed by Medicare. Ornish Lifestyle Medicine The key part of it is a plant based diet. Also the Cleveland Clinic which is considered the #1 hospital for heart disease also has a program to reverse the disease for those who are not candidates for surgery. The Esselstyn Heart Disease Program | Cleveland Clinic Both programs have many years of data to validate them. Is there a carnivore program for reversing heart disease that has decades of data to validate it? Please share.

And if you have Type 2 diabetes? A balanced whole food, plant based diet in most cases reverses that. A plant-based diet for the prevention and treatment of type 2 diabetes - PMC. The Best Diet for Preventing and Managing Diabetes

Kidney disease too.
Conclusions: Higher adherence to healthy plant-based diets and a vegetarian diet was associated with favorable kidney disease outcomes.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31023928/


The bottom line is that our ancestors primarily ate plants because that was available which is why we don't have the type of teeth and intestines to eat raw meat.

If you want to return to your ancestral diet, the one our ancestors ate when most of the features of our guts were evolving, you might reasonably eat what our ancestors spent the most time eating during the largest periods of the evolution of our guts, fruits, nuts, and vegetables—especially fungus-covered tropical leaves.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...l-vegetarians/

To be fair, there are credible studies out there that suggest that the Mediterranean or similar diets also have beneficial health benefits. But all of the blue zones receive most of their protein from plants.

Originally Posted by frayedends (Post 2276932)

Trying to read this with an open mind. Of course, these "studies' are run by the same folks in bed with the pharma industry.

In the end I think we can all agree that a carnivore diet can fix metabolic syndrome and a vege diet can also fix metabolic syndrome. We could argue over the nutritional benefits and risks forever. To be sure there are likely good arguments on both sides.

But again, we can all agree that obesity, diabetes, blood pressure, etc are all caused by high carb, high processed sugars and grains. There are going to be vegetarians that are obese and have Type 2 because they can eat pasta and sugar and rice and all the garbage that makes us sick. Carnivores don't have that issue.

Based on everything I've read I think a whole foods, very low carb, keto type diet is the way to go. As for the carnivore diet, I think it's a great elimination diet for people that may have sensitivity to certain plant based foods. If you have health issues, inflammation, auto-immune etc. go carnivore and see if it helps. Then you can introduce veges 1 at a time back into your diet. Stay low carb and you'll probably be fine.

Originally Posted by ithos (Post 2277106)

Not sure how you came to the conclusion that the WFPB crowd has ties to the pharmaceutical corporations. Most physicians who are certified in lifestyle medicine are successful in reducing or eliminating prescriptions for their patients through education.
Home - American College of Lifestyle Medicine

With regard to diabetes we can agree that processed simple carbs should be avoided.

Diet composition has a marked impact on the risk of developing type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Prospective studies show that dietary patterns with elevated amount of animal products and low quantity of vegetable food items raise the risk of these diseases. In healthy subjects, animal protein intake intensifies insulin resistance whereas plant-based foods enhance insulin sensitivity.

ScienceDirect.

If animal protein was a big part of the answer to solving our worst illnesses such as diabetes and auto immune diseases and could be substantiated by peer reviewed studies on pubmed then the meat producers and egg industry with their deep pockets would be running commercials to promote it. They can't because there are none and they would be punished with massive fines. The best they can do is promote the Mediterranean diet which allows some fish and eggs but emphasizes whole food carbs.

Funny thing. I put in carnivore diet in pubmed and all that comes back are articles about dogs and cats.

Originally Posted by frayedends (Post 2276932)

Trying to read this with an open mind. Of course, these "studies' are run by the same folks in bed with the pharma industry.

In the end I think we can all agree that a carnivore diet can fix metabolic syndrome and a vege diet can also fix metabolic syndrome. We could argue over the nutritional benefits and risks forever. To be sure there are likely good arguments on both sides.

But again, we can all agree that obesity, diabetes, blood pressure, etc are all caused by high carb, high processed sugars and grains. There are going to be vegetarians that are obese and have Type 2 because they can eat pasta and sugar and rice and all the garbage that makes us sick. Carnivores don't have that issue.

Based on everything I've read I think a whole foods, very low carb, keto type diet is the way to go. As for the carnivore diet, I think it's a great elimination diet for people that may have sensitivity to certain plant based foods. If you have health issues, inflammation, auto-immune etc. go carnivore and see if it helps. Then you can introduce veges 1 at a time back into your diet. Stay low carb and you'll probably be fine.

Originally Posted by ithos (Post 2277226)

I agree you lose weight fast switching to an all animal protein diet. I did it once and lost weight quick. Didn't have the discipline to stick to it. Years later I researched the whole food plant based diet and discovered that the medical research was much more credible than the low carb diet.

Secrets of the Loma Linda Blue Zone diet: Centenarians’ good nutrition habits and whole foods as key
Wholegrains, vegetables, fruit and cancer risk - WCRF International

Since there is no society I know of that is exclusively animal protein, I hope the meat industry puts together a long term study for the carnivore diet. I can't find one. If the results come back positive then I will be persuaded and do a mea culpa.

Originally Posted by ithos (Post 2276775)

Just about any diet can cherry pick bio markers that may improve after starting it. But that is not a valid scientific method to determine its true impact on health. Neither are anecdotal claims.

Several have mentioned that plants are bad for humans. This is the probably the most ridiculous idea ever posted on TOV. And anyone who believes that is placing their prejudices above overwhelming rational and science based evidence. Our bodies need fiber and animal protein has none. Only plants have it. And most of the vitamins and minerals you receive from eating meat is because the animals get them from eating plants or from being exposed to water and soil like our ancestors were when they gathered food in the wild. There only a few possible medical reasons to avoid some plants such as the rare case of epilepsy.
Diet and nutrition | Epilepsy Society

There is a site, pubmed.gov, which posts most of the medical literature and studies from established and credentialed organizations. Any medical or diet recommendations should should be accompanied with multiple citations from this site or other renowned medical organizations. One advantage of meatless diets not often discussed is the it takes 20 times more water to produce a calorie of protein from meat than it does a plant. Calculating water footprints of animal, plant proteins

And what about heart disease? There is only one program for heart disease reversal that is reimbursed by Medicare. Ornish Lifestyle Medicine The key part of it is a plant based diet. Also the Cleveland Clinic which is considered the #1 hospital for heart disease also has a program to reverse the disease for those who are not candidates for surgery. The Esselstyn Heart Disease Program | Cleveland Clinic Both programs have many years of data to validate them. Is there a carnivore program for reversing heart disease that has decades of data to validate it? Please share.

And if you have Type 2 diabetes? A balanced whole food, plant based diet in most cases reverses that. A plant-based diet for the prevention and treatment of type 2 diabetes - PMC. The Best Diet for Preventing and Managing Diabetes

Kidney disease too.
Conclusions: Higher adherence to healthy plant-based diets and a vegetarian diet was associated with favorable kidney disease outcomes.https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31023928/


The bottom line is that our ancestors primarily ate plants because that was available which is why we don't have the type of teeth and intestines to eat raw meat.

If you want to return to your ancestral diet, the one our ancestors ate when most of the features of our guts were evolving, you might reasonably eat what our ancestors spent the most time eating during the largest periods of the evolution of our guts, fruits, nuts, and vegetables—especially fungus-covered tropical leaves.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...l-vegetarians/

To be fair, there are credible studies out there that suggest that the Mediterranean or similar diets also have beneficial health benefits. But all of the blue zones receive most of their protein from plants.

Originally Posted by The Chipster (Post 2276499)

For all of you carnivores, here are some fancy restaurant specials to try:

* The All-You-Can-Eat Cardiac Arrest
* The EMT Bone-In Special
* Coronary Clogger Delight
* The Elevated Blood-Pressure Plate
* special desert: Statin Enhanced Ice Cream Pie

(sorry, this was all done in good humor (sort of). BTW, any idea why we evolved with flat teeth instead of canine teeth?