[quote=tucson;868674]
Doesn't sound like a loving god to me. So in your belief, a woman thousands of years ago simply ate an apple and now newborns have to be saved for their sins.....really?..... A newborn baby is the most precious thing in the world and how can you say they will go to hell through no fault of their own? Is there anything more innocent than a new born baby in this world? You have them quilty for just being born. Your God gave you the ability to think and reason and realize that not everything written in a 2000 year old book translated hundreds of times is fact. We were given common sense for a reason.

[quote=Shimpy;869202]I think back then, god was tired from building the earth in 7 days, but when Jesus came and delivered the sermon on the mount, that was the words that God would have said if he had not been exhausted. Jesus is god to me and his teachings are what we all should follow.

[quote=Shimpy;869202]I did not say that a newborn baby will go to hell...if a child dies, they immediately go to heaven, there is an "age of accountability" in which a person knows that there is a God and their conscience speaks to them of sin and salvation through Jesus Christ ... common sense will not give you eternal life, only faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour of your life will...I know God exists and He is more real to me than anything...and also the Bible says I am very blessed when I am mocked for His sake...:-)

[quote=tucson;869220]

The bible is the word of God...How do we know this? Because the bible says it is. As has been said before, the bible would not stand up in a court of law.
I have my opinions based on logic and reason and you have yours based on blind faith from a book written thousands of years ago chisled in stone, transulated hundreds of times. It was written when there was no such thing as science, thus beliefs in rain gods, sun gods, etc. They couldnt explain what was happening because they didn't have the knowledge.
This will be the end of our discussion because you chose to believe what has been preached to you and not listen to reason and I chose to look at science, facts, and logic.
No hard feelings Tucson and I know keeping the faith will keep you comfortable, and I'm happy with that. I have no intention of converting anyone.

I would not attempt to answer where scripture is silent. The sin-guilt of an infant is a distraction for someone who does not want to deal with areas where scripture is clarion-clear: that every one who might hear the gospel finds themselves in the same condition, utterly guilty of having willfully sinned and incapable of mitigating it so that they can stand blameless before a holy God. It's actually quite common for people to resist the idea of "federal headship" when it comes to imputed guilt from Adam, but happily receptive when it comes to imputed righteousness from the new Adam, our adopted head, Christ.

We saw God's Not Dead and plan on seeing Heaven Is For Real. I believe these 'faith' films are as controversial as those that belittle them want them to be. I remember Frank Rich (NY columnist) was stating that Mel Gibson's The Passion of The Christ promoted anti-Semitism (Rich is of the Jewish faith). He was then asked if he had seen the film to which he replied no. That ended the conversation. My point is that it's hard to judge a film until you have seen it....oh, and to those that say ooooo, Mel Gibson, let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Accomplished actor and director in my opinion.

[quote=Shimpy;869238]This post provoked me to find a Bible description of a judge:

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns...And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of the Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
:read: Rev. 19

That's a pretty impressive court of law, wouldn't you say?

I haven't seen heaven, but I feel it's real. I have held my newborn child against my face and knew her. Knew that this person who I had just met I had somehow always known. The miracle of her echoed into something deep inside me that had lived forever. I can't explain heaven, but I know that if the universe is infinite, how did it create itself? I can't defend the tenants of a place after death because I have not died, but I have descended into the dark abyss of despair and hopelessness and found hope again. I have needed to help others and could not do it with money or food or physical work and so I prayed. I needed to pray and praying may have helped. It didn't hurt.


I long for there to be a heaven and thinking there might me one gives me peace. Not totally believing, being a bit skeptical doesn't offend God if he is. He loves me the way I loved my newborn baby.

What a beautiful post. Yes, babies and nature answer many questions for me about God.

I usually don't read threads debating the existence of God or the validity of religion because I become irritated by the rants of the non believers. Gracie, I'm glad I followed this one. Thanks!

I'm glad you posted because it gives me a chance to explain something about this thread. This thread was not intended to be a debate about the existence of God or the validity of religion.

The motivation for this thread was the fact that I heard the boy, from the story, being interviewed on the radio and the interview left me feeling skeptical. In other words, skeptical about the boy's story and the father's ability to sort things out based on what he said. That was my honest opinion, right or wrong.

I think there's some confusion here; there's a difference between faith in God and faith in the the author of the story. For example, whether or not one feels the story is accurate is independent of one's faith in God.

My lack of faith is in the people who tell these types of stories. I don't know them personally so I have no way of knowing whether they are being honest or accurate.

There have been highly respected ministers who have cheated those who believed in them. The one I'm thinking of is Jim Bakker (Remember Jim & Tammy Faye Bakker). They lost their TV ministry after a series of sex and money scandals. As I understand it, many of his followers were defrauded because they had faith in him as a man of God. He cheated his followers out of $158 million.

These discussions, and your post especially gracie, always remind me of one of my favorite quotes, taken from The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell. Speaking of a priest in the book, she says...

"He was aware of his agnosticism, and patient with it. Rather than deny the existence of something he couldn't perceive himself, he acknowledged the authenticity of his uncertainty and carried on, praying in the face of his doubt."

I have read of atheists who had near-death experiences. I'm sure that they struggled with the question, was it a dream, or was it "real"? An esoteric question for sure. However, the similarity of stories at a time when disclosures were rare leads one to believe it as "real". Many folks who have near-death experiences don't disclose because of their own confusion as well as their fear of being labeled as crazy.

Many of those who have had a near-death experience have no fear of dying. Their lives and the lives of their family members have had a significant experience that they will never deny. You could never change their beliefs with all your logic and science.

Regarding the return, I heard this story first hand where the father of a one year old was given a choice to return. He then had the image of his son in his mind (God saw this) and was immediately returned to his hospital bed. He held it a secret from 1980 to 2001 even from his wife. After his divorce he discussed it in a church Alpha program. The group leader changed the subject and he rarely spoke of it again. I was fortunate to have his trust.

Excellent post. Thanks for the explanation.

Probably to encourage you to start this thread, start all this great discussion, perhaps raise awareness and hope that there really is a God and a Heaven.