2nd Wave??

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  #181  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by golfing eagles View Post
Sure I was harsh, PB. I usually get that way after being called ignorant. And remember, medical websites that are intended for the layperson tend to "give them what they want"...
Many websites do what you say, but I don’t put the Mayo Clinic, Harvard Health, and WebMD websites in that category.
  #182  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby View Post
The second masks became readily available again, they should have mandated it. Instead of waiting months for the country to recover (which obviously hasn't happened yet) we would have stood a much better chance of recovering within a month or two after a mandate was issued.

We'll never know, now. And the first wave never ended so no - this isn't a second wave starting. It's just the resurgence of the first one.
"Mandating" the public to wear a mask is almost impossible. You would have to stipulate what is construed as a legitimate mask, how must one wear it to make it lawful, and when would the mask be required. Folks that seem to think that the gov must direct their lives are folks that should live in a country run by a socialist dictator. Americans should have free will. What's next, mandating mask usage during flu season? Mandating long sleeved shirts to prevent sun damage? No one in the gov has prevented you from wearing a mask to protect yourself.
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  #183  
Old 10-18-2020, 07:52 AM
OrangeBlossomBaby OrangeBlossomBaby is offline
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Originally Posted by oldtimes View Post
There is NO way even with a mandate that everyone would have worn a mask. This forum is proof of that.
For the people in the balcony, who weren't listening the first dozen times it was repeated with a microphone down on stage:

Increased use = reduced risk.

Expounding on that:

The more people who comply, the less likely anyone is to get sick. If EVERYONE complied, there would still be a risk of getting sick. But the risk would be minimal, and we would've been able to open up a lot sooner.

But since there was no mandate, there was no reason for most people to feel compelled to wear masks. And so they didn't. And now we're on an increased crescendo of the first wave, because 9 months later - the first wave is still alive and kicking.
  #184  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:03 AM
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As we see more and more people acquire the virus and successfully recover(most cases), they will be asking themselves why they are still wearing a mask. I guess they wear it to make you feel safe, nothing else. There is a small part of me that says this was the intent of the cdc when suggesting all people wear masks indoors. Somewhat effective but it makes one feel a little safer.
  #185  
Old 10-18-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby View Post
Eagles is nitpicking. No, it's not a "disease." But yes, it is an illness. People who have CFS actually have CFS. It's a thing. It isn't a disease. But it exists, and it's a thing, and some people have it, no matter which nit Dr. Eagles picks from it.
I like Dr. Eagles a lot and I am not going to read back and see what he said to see why you just wrote the above.

On the same general subject....I have recently observed this; People seem to think that they are safe in big crowds, but will jeer at the other side...for instance to me whether you are crowded at The Woman's March on Washington, The political rallies in Florida or the protests in Washington and Wisconsin States do not seem to make a difference to the mutated virus that has sickened millions in the world for the first time this last year.

Good morning y'all. I slept in.
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  #186  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
Many websites do what you say, but I don’t put the Mayo Clinic, Harvard Health, and WebMD websites in that category.
Here's a good summary of where we stand, from the Western Journal of Medicine

"The chronic fatigue syndrome has gained popularity
among the lay public and has stimulated considerable scientific debate about its existence. Many investigators and practitioners have attributed the disorder to chronic depression.
Difficulty arises from the diverse symptoms associated with
fatigue states; fatigue is a prominent feature of many systemic, neurologic, and psychiatric disorders. Also, fatigue is
a subjective complaint without a quantifiable measure. This
interweaving of many symptoms and diagnoses with disabling fatigue makes it difficult to compare patient groups.
Terms applied to disorders that probably represent chronic
fatigue syndrome are chronic infectious mononucleosis,
myalgic encephalomyelitis, idiopathic chronic fatigue
and myalgia syndrome, epidemic neuromyasthenia, postviral
fatigue syndrome, and fibrositis-fibromyalgia.
Current research on the chronic fatigue syndrome has
focused on treatment, physiologic mechanisms, clinical
subtypes, fatigue quantification measures and markers,
and the association with chronic infections. Although several
potential infectious agents have been identified, including
Epstein-Barr virus, retroviruses (possibly human T-cell lymphotropic virus type II), human herpesvirus type 6, and coxsackieviruses, none has emerged as an indisputable cause of
the syndrome. Research has also focused on identifying a
metabolic marker using phosphate 31 magnetic resonance
spectroscopy and a physiologic marker using single-fiber
electromyography of muscle fatigue. Results have been
mixed, and further efforts to delineate their role in evaluating
the syndrome will be necessary. The question of whether
fatigue is mediated by central nervous system or peripheral
mechanisms has considerable scientific and therapeutic implications. Treatment remains focused on symptom and supportive management as no antiviral agent has proved successful. The answers to the many issues inherent in the chronic
fatigue syndrome await the results of research."

So bottom line---we just don't know
  #187  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby View Post
For the people in the balcony, who weren't listening the first dozen times it was repeated with a microphone down on stage:

Increased use = reduced risk.

Expounding on that:

The more people who comply, the less likely anyone is to get sick. If EVERYONE complied, there would still be a risk of getting sick. But the risk would be minimal, and we would've been able to open up a lot sooner.

But since there was no mandate, there was no reason for most people to feel compelled to wear masks. And so they didn't. And now we're on an increased crescendo of the first wave, because 9 months later - the first wave is still alive and kicking.
This is nothing but your opinion. There is absolutely no proof that wearing masks from the beginning would have changed anything. Half the people who wear masks use ineffective masks or do not wear them properly. You may think you know everything but you don't and your snarky replies just show your ignorance.
From the people in the balcony, who are tired of hearing it.
  #188  
Old 10-18-2020, 11:59 AM
John41 John41 is offline
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Originally Posted by golfing eagles View Post
Sure I was harsh, PB. I usually get that way after being called ignorant. And remember, medical websites that are intended for the layperson tend to "give them what they want"



Yes, definitely nitpicking. I wanted to show that the medical community has differing view on CFS and nothing is definitive. I had no delusion that I would be able to educate a "true believer"



Now I'll get harsh----HOW DARE YOU!. First, do you have a reading comprehension issue, since I never posted that. I was explaining how vague symptom complexes are often given a name so OTHERS can bill for them. I personally have given away millions in free care, never denied a patient care based on ability to pay, and never followed my bottom line closely. So as far as your comment goes, I have a few proctologists that I can refer you too. (Sorry, but I think you deserved that)



I'm glad you found what you were looking for. So to be clear, I've posted a link to Dr. Cheney's clinic, which of course he named after himself. Everyone can look at all the fringe/alternative medicine on the site and decide for themselves

Cheney Clinic - Helping Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome


CFS is NOT a real disease. At most it is a syndrome, one that may or may not exist, cannot be defined, cannot be tested for and cannot be treated, r

Yes, definitely nitpicking. I wanted to show that the medical community has differing view on CFS and nothing is definitive.

Of your two statements above Doc which is true.
1. CFS is NOT a real disease
2. The medical community differs
  #189  
Old 10-18-2020, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by oldtimes View Post
This is nothing but your opinion. There is absolutely no proof that wearing masks from the beginning would have changed anything. Half the people who wear masks use ineffective masks or do not wear them properly. You may think you know everything but you don't and your snarky replies just show your ignorance.
From the people in the balcony, who are tired of hearing it.
Wow, and people think I've been a bit harsh
Over the last year, OBB has generally made some very good posts with reasonable thought processes. On this one issue, however, she has decided to worship at the altar in the Church of the Holy Mask. She, and likeminded individuals believe that if everyone wore a mask, all the time, from day 1, there would be no pandemic. Simply not true, pandemics are difficult to get rid of. It took almost 200 years to eradicate smallpox from the face of the Earth from Jenner's original cowpox vaccine. And smallpox was relatively easy since the virus had no animal reservoirs
Some of the always mask proponents believe they are acting out of pure altruism to protect others---well, OK, thank you. Others think the mask is protecting the wearer, which is a minimal to zero factor, one earlier post claimed this was the opinion of a lifelong nurse. The truth is that there are times when a mask is appropriate and times when it is useless, and it certainly is not the answer to the pandemic. Social distancing does more than a mask hands down. And even though surface to human transmission has not been documented to any degree, I'm sure there are still those that are wiping down their groceries with bleach (YUK)
  #190  
Old 10-18-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by John41 View Post
CFS is NOT a real disease. At most it is a syndrome, one that may or may not exist, cannot be defined, cannot be tested for and cannot be treated, r

Yes, definitely nitpicking. I wanted to show that the medical community has differing view on CFS and nothing is definitive.

Of your two statements above Doc which is true.
1. CFS is NOT a real disease
2. The medical community differs
It is a SYNDROME, that the medical community has differing opinions of. (oops, dangling participle)

To be a disease, it has to have a known etiologic agent.

Read post 191
  #191  
Old 10-18-2020, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenswing View Post
The thing is there was almost instantly a mask shortage. My wife's a nurse and her hospital had a hard time staying supplied. There was almost nothing available to the general public.

You can mandate all you want but if supply can't keep up with demand it's pretty much an empty mandate.
As soon as the CDC requested us to cover our faces, many people got to work and made home made masks. 100% cotton was the preferred material to use. Making a face covering with a bandana and two rubber bands was also being done by many. Even using paper towels, rubber bands and coffee filters were being used. Americans were and are very resourceful. If only we were to be trusted to handle THE TRUTH!!! Between covering our faces and social distancing, we could have avoided a shut down if the masking was mandated.
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  #192  
Old 10-18-2020, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeebean View Post
If our president implored Americans to wear masks, people would listen to him. Lead by example. We did not get that.......at all. I must believe that we would all be in a much better place today if there was much better compliance to mitigate this dreadful virus.

1/2 the people in this country can't stand him.......they won't listen.


There really is no new information about prevention since May/June.......and people are still choosing to ignore.


States and Cities are free to communicate and restrict.
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  #193  
Old 10-18-2020, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by oldtimes View Post
This is nothing but your opinion. There is absolutely no proof that wearing masks from the beginning would have changed anything. Half the people who wear masks use ineffective masks or do not wear them properly. You may think you know everything but you don't and your snarky replies just show your ignorance.
From the people in the balcony, who are tired of hearing it.
I respectfully disagree with you. Wearing masks (even home made) from the very beginning (January) would have starved the virus of hosts. That's all we had to do.......comply with mask wearing and social distancing.

The virus would not have had a chance against us humans. We would have won. Only problem is there would have had to be a high percentage of compliance to prevent the virus from latching on to new hosts. Americans are spoiled and do not want their civil rights taken from them. Hence, we are in a mess now combating an invisible enemy and we do NOT have a handle on it.

The only way out of this mess is a viable safe and effective vaccine and for enough of us Americans to accept inoculation. The vaccine will allow us to reach herd immunity, safely.

There is so much evidence that has been reported that masks do work to mitigate the virus and slow the spread. I will never understand why there are those who deny the science.
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  #194  
Old 10-18-2020, 06:15 PM
OrangeBlossomBaby OrangeBlossomBaby is offline
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Originally Posted by golfing eagles View Post
Wow, and people think I've been a bit harsh
Over the last year, OBB has generally made some very good posts with reasonable thought processes. On this one issue, however, she has decided to worship at the altar in the Church of the Holy Mask. She, and likeminded individuals believe that if everyone wore a mask, all the time, from day 1, there would be no pandemic. Simply not true, pandemics are difficult to get rid of. It took almost 200 years to eradicate smallpox from the face of the Earth from Jenner's original cowpox vaccine. And smallpox was relatively easy since the virus had no animal reservoirs
Some of the always mask proponents believe they are acting out of pure altruism to protect others---well, OK, thank you. Others think the mask is protecting the wearer, which is a minimal to zero factor, one earlier post claimed this was the opinion of a lifelong nurse. The truth is that there are times when a mask is appropriate and times when it is useless, and it certainly is not the answer to the pandemic. Social distancing does more than a mask hands down. And even though surface to human transmission has not been documented to any degree, I'm sure there are still those that are wiping down their groceries with bleach (YUK)
Is there some part of "risk reduction" that eludes you, Doctor? Nowhere have I said, hinted, implied, or pretended to believe that wearing a mask would prevent the virus. What I have said, stated, emphasized, and repeated, is that it would reduce the risk, and lower the number of cases.

I'm not a whatever of the holy whosits. I am a proponent of the concept that risk reduction is a good thing, when there is a pandemic going on. And if people would have just agreed to reduce their risks as recommended by the CDC (and by subsequent recommendations as they learned more about this novel virus), the risk of spread would have been reduced. Not eradicated. But reduced. It could have been reduced to the point where we could've re-opened months ago.

I've also stated, on several posts in several threads, that I DO NOT WEAR A MASK OUTSIDE. I guess you skipped past all those as well. Because, y'know - if I was one of "those people" who thought everyone should've worn a mask, all the time, from day 1, I might not have said - on several posts, in several threads, that I DO NOT WEAR A MASK OUTSIDE.

I do, however, make efforts to social distance - even outside. Which is something that sadly - other people refuse to do.
  #195  
Old 10-18-2020, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeebean View Post
I respectfully disagree with you. Wearing masks (even home made) from the very beginning (January) would have starved the virus of hosts. That's all we had to do.......comply with mask wearing and social distancing.

The virus would not have had a chance against us humans. We would have won. Only problem is there would have had to be a high percentage of compliance to prevent the virus from latching on to new hosts. Americans are spoiled and do not want their civil rights taken from them. Hence, we are in a mess now combating an invisible enemy and we do NOT have a handle on it.

The only way out of this mess is a viable safe and effective vaccine and for enough of us Americans to accept inoculation. The vaccine will allow us to reach herd immunity, safely.

There is so much evidence that has been reported that masks do work to mitigate the virus and slow the spread. I will never understand why there are those who deny the science.
I do not disagree that masks help and I do wear one myself in appropriate settings. What I disagree with is the idea that if we had done it from the beginning we would now be back to normal. The countries that locked down and slowed the spread are still seeing a resurgence.
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