[katezbox]

OK - I have stayed out of this one for awhile, but here goes....

1. We need to remember that Havana CC is a business - it is not one of our neighbors playing music or TV too loud. Presumably they are providing entertainment to attract additional customers and generate additional revenue.

2. I understand where NJBlue is coming from - the country club was there before most of the homes, but not all. One of the best things about this forum is that it allows us to research, research, research. Buying a home near any public facility could always mean an increase in noise, traffic, etc. As Freeda points out, the law doesn't provide for protection against changes that do not not meet our expectations.

3. Whalen, I believe, did not mean a curfew in the literal sense. She meant that the early end of music was in effect a curfew. As more and more boomers move to TV, TV will need to change to meet this shifting demographic. The Morse family has done amazingly well by reading the market clearly - there is no reason to suspect that this will not continue.

4. It seems the real problem here is the lack of understanding about just what the rules are. Why are businesses being restricted from offering musical entertainment in the squares? What are reasonable limits on music at Havana and other country clubs?

Attendance at public hearings seems a good way to start. As a villager who still works, I have less passion about this now than I expect I will once I can retire. This group needs a leader. Sue Schuler offered her presentation skills - who will take her up on this to make something happen?

k

[NJblue]

No one is justified in having an expectation that no 'changes' - often called 'progress', and granted that depends one's sentiments - can take place; that everything must always stay the way it has always been; or the way it was when they moved here.

I wonder how the popular sentiment as expressed here would change if "progress" meant that as more baby boomers move in that the Rec Department decided that for the sake of progress they would allow bop-til-you-drop outdoor parties with live bands at all of the neighborhood pools and rec centers? This is just a logical extension of "progress" as what is being advocated here for the CCs.

Look, TV benefits from being a planned community and for the most part it is very well planned. Central to this plan was the concept of town squares where people could shop, dine and find plenty of entertainment - both indoors and out. Also part of this plan was a series of distributed country clubs primarily for golf but also dining and light entertainment. However, unlike most country clubs around the country, these were placed in very close proximity to residential neighborhoods. Because of this, late night entertainment in CCs is not part of the plan - this is relegated to the town squares.

Now, in the guise of "progress" it seems that people are too lazy to want to take a 5 or 10-minute drive to a town square for their entertainment and instead want to change the plan - even if it trespasses on the rights of homeowners who bought based on a plan being carried out and enforced. What is troublesome is that to carry this out they stir up sentiments with false allegations of "curfew" and allegations that the TV lifestyle is being curtailed - when this is patently false.

[BobKat1]

My guess is that after all is said and done, no changes in the near future.

A tempest in a teapot kind of thing....

[NJblue]

How sound carries is somewhat complex based on a lot of issues - direction that speakers are oriented, acoustic barriers that exist between the source and the receiver, wind, and distance to name a few. One of the acoustic engineers where I used to work said that distance was a significant factor in perceived loudness. Hence in an unobstructed environment a house that is 300 feet from a sound will have dramatically different perception of loudness than one which is 500 feet away. Throw in all of the other variables and it becomes impossible to determine how loud it is at one location by asking a person who is at another vantage point.

That being said, perhaps it may be useful for Havana to bring in an acoustic engineer. Perhaps things can be done in terms of speaker orientation and acoustic absorption material to mitigate the problem.

[hedoman]

We were down in October for the Italian Festival and the music and fun lasted past 9 . We were strolling along the LS walk and could hear music from a number of places on the water. Is this a new ordinance?

All I can say is IT'S TIME FOR TOOOOGA! TOGA TOGA TOGA

[elevatorman]

Go to this site and use the search word "noise". The law is very subjective and ambiguous.

http://library8.municode.com/default...ction=whatsnew

[l2ridehd]

Part of the problem is what is the definition of "late" and "loud"? Someone in their infinite wisdom decided that 9:00 PM was time to shut down the town squares. Is that right? Maybe 11:00 PM would be better. Or maybe 9:00 weekdays and midnight weekends? Oops, that is for working neighborhoods. Or maybe some of us still work.h What about New Years eve? Is later OK then? What noise level and how far away can you hear it?

Maybe a good compromise would be that 9:00 PM in the town squares and 10:00 PM at the CC's as long as the noise level was no more then XX dbs at a distance of 300 feet away. And the same noise guide but 11:00 PM at both places on Friday and Saturday. Exceptions for Holidays like New Years eve and maybe a couple others.

Never will all the rules and guidelines please everyone. But we all have to live in the same "BIG Village" so lets try to figure out a solution that works for everyone.

[tkret]

Originally Posted by NJblue

I wonder how the popular sentiment as expressed here would change if "progress" meant that as more baby boomers move in that the Rec Department decided that for the sake of progress they would allow bop-til-you-drop outdoor parties with live bands at all of the neighborhood pools and rec centers? .

bop-til-you-drop parties? Where do I sign up???

[NJblue]

Maybe a good compromise would be that 9:00 PM in the town squares and 10:00 PM at the CC's as long as the noise level was no more then XX dbs at a distance of 300 feet away. And the same noise guide but 11:00 PM at both places on Friday and Saturday.

I would be interested in finding out your logic of allowing an establishment built in a residential neighborhood more leeway than one in a town square that was planned and designed for entertainment.

[SUNNYMARYANN]

OK HERE IS THE STRAIGHT POOP! I had a phone call from Linda (Binder?) at The Villages about my complaint re the curfew and she said they know nothing at all about it and they have never heard of the sheriffs deputies actually shutting down the music, ever! There is no 8PM curfew and management has no access to this website so she is not able to read the forum. She also said it isnt in the paper yet so it probably is just a rumor. So where did this story originate and are there actually live witnesses to the deputies arrival and shutting down of the music. Time to get to the source and find out what its all about. It could affect future sales.

[CJ]

I was just at Havana for lunch and they told me that shut down was 8pm and that ALL country clugs are to adhere to this. Staff was unhappy about closing up at 8. Who to believe?

[golf2140]

Originally Posted by SUNNYMARYANN

OK HERE IS THE STRAIGHT POOP! I had a phone call from Linda (Binder?) at The Villages about my complaint re the curfew and she said they know nothing at all about it and they have never heard of the sheriffs deputies actually shutting down the music, ever! There is no 8PM curfew and management has no access to this website so she is not able to read the forum. She also said it isnt in the paper yet so it probably is just a rumor. So where did this story originate and are there actually live witnesses to the deputies arrival and shutting down of the music. Time to get to the source and find out what its all about. It could affect future sales.

I spoke directly with the folks at Havana, they were shut down by a Deputy Sheriff becasue he said the music was to loud !!!!!

[l2ridehd]

Sure NJBlue. The town squares have many surrounding business that can draw a diverse crowd and benefit from the live music and corner bars. The country clubs are a stand alone beacon that will only be able to serve good food at a reasonable price if they are allowed to draw revenue from multiple sources. I for one want the country club restaurants to be successful, serve great food at competitive prices. The only way they can do this is to develop a draw to bring in people. They don't have the town squares to accomplish that for them. I am sure those that live close to any country club go there often. I know I frequent the one near me. I want them to succeed. Music is one way to do that. I am sure there are others as well, but music brings crowds, people spend money, profits improve, and almost always the quality and price of their food. I would not want Havana to become like HH for food. If music until 10:00 PM will help accomplish that, then I support it.

[BETHPAGE BLACK]

Originally Posted by l2ridehd

Sure NJBlue. The town squares have many surrounding business that can draw a diverse crowd and benefit from the live music and corner bars. The country clubs are a stand alone beacon that will only be able to serve good food at a reasonable price if they are allowed to draw revenue from multiple sources. I for one want the country club restaurants to be successful, serve great food at competitive prices. The only way they can do this is to develop a draw to bring in people. They don't have the town squares to accomplish that for them. I am sure those that live close to any country club go there often. I know I frequent the one near me. I want them to succeed. Music is one way to do that. I am sure there are others as well, but music brings crowds, people spend money, profits improve, and almost always the quality and price of their food. I would not want Havana to become like HH for food. If music until 10:00 PM will help accomplish that, then I support it.

DITTO...DITTO/// YOU ARE RIGHT ON.....
What will happen is these CC will wind up closing down because they cant compete and then all those who live on a "Championship Golf Course" can attempt to explain to all their visitors that "oh by the way..we are waiting for the CC to open up..with nw owners"...not very impressive is it???

[NJblue]

Interesting rationale. However, this doesn't address the issue that none of the other CCs see the need to play late night entertainment and in fact many have no entertainment at all and they seem to do OK. If they would concentrate on quality food and good service they would do fine. Havana should take a lesson from them on this score. It is the closest to our neighborhood but no one wants to go there because of their poor service and mediocre food.

If they want to try some new concepts to bring people in, why not try indoor music - that's what a very popular restaurant where we used to live did. They had music that started around 8:30 or 9 as the dining wound down. That way people could eat and then stay in their seats to enjoy the music. The obvious benefit of this is that it is not dependant on the weather - too hot? too cold? too rainy? doesn't matter. The other benefit is that it doesn't annoy the neighbors.