Talk of The Villages Florida

Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Amenity Fees and the "cap" (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/amenity-fees-cap-355985/)

OrangeBlossomBaby 01-21-2025 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kkingston57 (Post 2403377)
Created a lot of posts for a fee that has gone up to approximately $175 a month from $155 in 4 years. 10 years ago we looked into buying a townhome. Grass cutting and pool was the biggest expenses and cost was $300

It's $199 now for amenity fees. We don't have that grass cutting or pool expense, since we mow our own lawn and don't have our own pool. So I guess that means we're living $101 less expensively than you are.

Maker 01-21-2025 03:46 PM

DON: Can this be fixed?
If someone pays $215/month, and someone else pays $195/month....
Can anyone list the extra amenities that extra $20/month pays for?
Seems unfair that there are different rates for identical amenities.

BrianL99 01-21-2025 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyp (Post 2403375)
Until I (we) pony up ?
Paradise Center $40 mil lawsuit
Brownwood water tower
Lake Sumter shoreline reclaim
Lake Sumter boardwalk

As long as there is money in the pot someone will figure out how to spend it.

Want a sure thing ? Here is my sure thing. There will never be another deferral rate. We will index amenities to CPI index and never miss a beat. We will fall behind and institute special bailout funds.

Still it is close to Utopia here however some people make it sound like the king just keeps on giving and the peasants keep on taking. No the peasants are paying their share just as they agreed to do.

100% correct.

Not only does the team absorb the penalty yards the Ref's impose, the goal line keeps moving farther away.

Bill14564 01-21-2025 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maker (Post 2403385)
DON: Can this be fixed?
If someone pays $215/month, and someone else pays $195/month....
Can anyone list the extra amenities that extra $20/month pays for?
Seems unfair that there are different rates for identical amenities.

Does anyone pay $215/month?

I pay a bit less than the new rate of $199 but my rate will be increasing around April and will put me pretty close. All rates should be close to the new contractual rate or will adjust to be close to the rate. (If yours is less then lucky you).

My rate was set to the contractual rate when I purchased, just s my deed restrictions said it would. My rate adjusted every year with the CPI just as the deed restrictions said it would. What more can I ask for other than the rate follows the restrictions I agreed to when I purchased?

Dilligas 01-21-2025 05:10 PM

Back Story is the facts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jimhoward (Post 2403093)
Is there some sort of backstory here that we newcomers need to understand?

If the OP is just a regular resident and has no connection with the developer, why are people emailing him questions about the amenity fees?

And why the justification of the fees by the OP? I mean its fine, the TOTV can be a soapbox, and his logic is probably right, but he has nothing to do with them right?

Don Wiley has been the source of "the facts" for several years. His thorough knowledge of TV and TV government along with his voice of reason and fact has been the desperate need of any website, and especially TOTV's soapbox. He has been a VCCD commissioner and County Commissioner.

He manages to remove the personal, political, and emotional aspects of many OPs and gives the facts. We all need that now.

kcrazorbackfan 01-21-2025 06:56 PM

Thanks for your insight on the amenity fees. Like you said, not all will be pleased with your explanation. It was very informative.

Bogie Shooter 01-21-2025 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maker (Post 2403385)
DON: Can this be fixed?
If someone pays $215/month, and someone else pays $195/month....
Can anyone list the extra amenities that extra $20/month pays for?
Seems unfair that there are different rates for identical amenities.

You can fix by sending a check of twenty dollars monthly…….until you get caught up to the $215.:wave:

tophcfa 01-21-2025 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2403380)

My question is, does the Developer have the unlimited right to grant access to the existing amenities, to as many homes as he wants.

Therein lies the crux of the dichotomy.

The Developer no longer owns the majority of the amenities (assuming the recent sale has been consummated), yet they have the exclusive right to determine the intensity of use the Amenities (they no longer own) are subjected to? They get to decide the "pools per person ratio" for their new CDD's and at the same time, change the current "pools per person ratio" in the existing CDD's?.

Very good, logical, and reasonable question. The man behind the curtain certainly exercised significantly influence over the AAC to allow them the ability to offer full residential amenities so they could add apartments to Spanish Springs and build Villas where the Clubhouse used to be at Hacienda Hills.

That was in a mature area, fully built out many years ago, where the existing amenities are already fully utilized and the developer didn’t have the right to grant new amenities to residential units in the AAC jurisdiction. In addition, the northern areas are finding it increasingly more difficult to get desirable tee times on the Executive golf courses, as the southern areas continue to be built out way faster than holes per rooftop are being added.

Indydealmaker 01-21-2025 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403025)
I recently received the below email concerning the Amenity Fee and provided the following responses.

“Good morning, Don
May I trouble with a couple of questions ?
1. Are there any actual HOA’s in The Villages that actually pay HOA dues instead of the usual amenity fees through their CDDs ?
2. Is there a site whereby you can type in an address and it tells you what village the home is in ?
Thanks for your reply and for your videos”


The genesis of the first question is clearly and effort to understand and avoid the rising Amenity fee, to which I provided the below response:

There are a few HOAs within The Villages community, their fees however are in addition to the Amenity Fee that EVERY homeowner agrees to pay upon purchase. What you will ultimately find is that these HOA fees will increase more than the Amenity Fee will. The Amenity Fee is tied to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) and can go up no greater than the CPI. The HOA fees are not constrained by the CPI but instead will adjust based on the actual cost changes for the services to be provided by the HOA. The CPI has traditionally fallen short of actual cost increases, so it is a constant losing battle to keep costs down each year to ensure that Repair and Replacement Fund (R&R) money (saving account) is not used to cover the annual operating costs.

There has been a lot of talk about a "cap" on the Amenity Fee. There was never a "cap", there was what was known as a "Deferral Rate" on the Amenity Fee that was for 1 year and was subsequently renewed annually for 8 years. The purpose of the Deferral Rate was to allow an equalization of the Amenity Fee that varied widely over the community.

Just to be clear – the “cap” exists in no one’s purchase agreement and no one has a written agreement that the amenity fee would never go above a certain amount. They may have been informed of the Deferral Rate’s existence by their sales representative, but it was never guaranteed. I’ve looked through hundreds of documents and even offered a $10,000 reward for some to produce such a document. No such documents exist.
At the time of the discontinuation of the Deferral Rate, over 85% of the homes in The Villages were at or within 95% of the Deferral Rate. The budget projections at that time, based on the current trends at the time, showed a revenue shortfall within 2 years that increased more each year after. This shortfall would have necessitated expenditure of the R&R funds just to maintain the current level of services. The only way to maintain the status quo under the Deferral Rate would have been to either a) decrease the service offered by the Amenity Divisions, b) defer facility maintenance and replacements, and/or c) close facilities. None of these were deemed an acceptable alternative.

There have been many comments made to the effect of “I don’t play golf (pick an activity), I shouldn’t have to pay for it”, “I’m over 80 (pick an age) and don’t use the amenities as much anymore, I shouldn’t have to pay as much”, “the rising cost of the Amenity Fee is going to price me out of my home and I’ll have to move”, and “this is just the developer getting rich at our expense”. To these short sighted and uninformed comments, I offer the following:

I don’t play pickleball, tennis, or use the pools, and the list goes on and on. The amenities are a package deal, no one likely uses ALL the amenities, what you don’t use someone else does and vice versa. Pricing the amenities piecemeal would be both administratively burdensome and cost prohibitive due the tremendous amount of additional overhead costs and would eliminate a large number of activities available to all the residents, a large number of these activities appeal to the less active or physically able residents. Executive golf only represents about 7% of the total amenity budgets (championship golf is not an amenity, it is a privately owned business and is not funded by the amenities budgets).

On age, how much did you use the amenities when you first moved here? If you are like most, a lot more than we did as we continue to age. It’s give-and-take for each person and activity. IF the Amenity Fee was age biased, what is the magic age? It’s different for each person. How would you enforce it? You’re 75 now, you can’t play pickleball anymore or you’re now 80 you can’t use the executive golf courses because they aren’t covered by your Amenity Fee. None of this is feasible. The activities that the older segment of the population engage in may be some of those eliminated as I discussed in the pervious paragraph, those more expensive on a “per person” basis – they would be the ones paying for the rec centers (the biggest cost in the budgets) and not the golfers.

IF the Amenity Fee CPI adjustments are going to price someone out of their home, I would have to ask about the other cost increases – food, energy, medical expenses, etc. – that have increased at a far greater rate. Everyone’s financial situation is different and unique, and we all have different needs and priorities, our financial plans for retirement must include considerations for these as well as continued cost increases must be a part of one’s financial plan for retirement. To blame the Amenity Fee CPI adjustments for losing one’s home or ability to live in a location or community is simply not taking the personally responsible for not planning for one’s future. I know, understand, and am sympathetic to the fact that one’s situation may have changed through the course of one’s retirement. Plans must then change to compensate, I/we should not be held financially responsible for someone else's unwillingness to change, which is what this comment asks for.

The Developer owns only a very small part of the amenities, and that amount is about to get even smaller with the sale of the amenities in CDD 12 & 13 to the Sumter Landing Amenities Division (SLAD). Of the amenities that they don’t own, only a very small number of services are provided by the developer for these, the largest of these is IT services that are competitively bid on every few years by the District government. IT services and Communication services represent a very small percentage of $200+ million amenities budgets. The annual adjustments they make to the Prevailing Rate (the rate paid by new homes and resales purchased during the year) are a necessity for them to balance their continuously rising cost of operations. They only receive the Amenity Fee on the homes purchased in the areas where they own the amenities – currently all areas below SR44. Amenity fees north of SR44 go to the SLAD and RAD – both government bodies. The developer has the advantage of using a balance sheet to determent what the new Prevailing Rate will be and doesn’t have to live under the constraints of the CPI for new houses they sell. Yes they want to make a profit on these funds, but it is a marginal process as their costs increase each time a new amenity is open, this happens long before the revenues from new home sales cover these costs. Unlike the SLAD/RAD owned facilities, the developer has the additional expense of having to pay taxes on these properties as long as they own them. The developer isn’t getting rich on the Amenity Fee, in fact looking at the current 2025 Prevailing Rate of $199/month and the past inflation rates it would not be a stretch to say they didn’t raise it any higher to prevent breaking that glass ceiling of $200/month.

A majority of the people who have purchased in The Villages did so because of the wide variety of Amenities that are available to everyone. These amenities come at a cost that we all agreed to pay when we purchased our homes. You purchased a home in a community with an overhead expense that you agreed to pay for, you didn’t get a rich uncle to take care of your every need and want in that purchase.

For the second question, go to this page of the DistrictGov.org website:
Find My District - The Villages Community Development Districts

Many may not like what I have written here, reality sucks. I have to stay grounded in reality and not lose sight of the realities that many forget exists outside the bubble of The Villages. Many have said, accused, or inferred that I am somehow indebted or compensated by the developer, these are untrue statements and ignorant lip service, and I openly challenge anyone to provide any proof to the contrary. Bring it! I will openly discuss and disprove this in the town square without fear.

Do I love where I live? Absolutely! Is it a perfect utopia? Absolutely NOT, it has its many flaws and shortcomings that I am unafraid to openly discuss and have done so many times in the past. I did spend nearly 20 years in management within the construction industry and have seen the right and the wrong way to do construction and run a business, and The Villages is an exemplary case of the right way to do this business.

Thank you, Don! Uninformed opinions and unverified rumors sow the seeds of needless dissatisfaction .

Marathon Man 01-22-2025 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2403442)
Very good, logical, and reasonable question. The man behind the curtain certainly exercised significantly influence over the AAC to allow them the ability to offer full residential amenities so they could add apartments to Spanish Springs and build Villas where the Clubhouse used to be at Hacienda Hills.

That was in a mature area, fully built out many years ago, where the existing amenities are already fully utilized and the developer didn’t have the right to grant new amenities to residential units in the AAC jurisdiction. In addition, the northern areas are finding it increasingly more difficult to get desirable tee times on the Executive golf courses, as the southern areas continue to be built out way faster than holes per rooftop are being added.

I have lived south of 44 for several years now. None of us travel north to play golf. We have all the golf that we need down here. The myth that the southern expansion affects golf in the north is a myth. Perhaps more golfers are moving into TV north. Why is that not considered?

BrianL99 01-22-2025 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2403380)
Therein lies the crux of the dichotomy.

The Developer no longer owns the majority of the amenities (assuming the recent sale has been consummated), yet they have the exclusive right to determine the intensity of use the Amenities (they no longer own) are subjected to? They get to decide the "pools per person ratio" for their new CDD's and at the same time, change the current "pools per person ratio" in the existing CDD's? I have to be missing something here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2403442)
Very good, logical, and reasonable question. The man behind the curtain certainly exercised significantly influence over the AAC to allow them the ability to offer full residential amenities so they could add apartments to Spanish Springs and build Villas where the Clubhouse used to be at Hacienda Hills.

That was in a mature area, fully built out many years ago, where the existing amenities are already fully utilized and the developer didn’t have the right to grant new amenities to residential units in the AAC jurisdiction. In addition, the northern areas are finding it increasingly more difficult to get desirable tee times on the Executive golf courses, as the southern areas continue to be built out way faster than holes per rooftop are being added.

I have asked that same question of many people and never seem to get an answer, other than the Developer is a very smart and conscientious business person, who won't "kill the golden goose".

The original developer is probably the smartest developer in American history. If you believe what TV veterans says, he was a great guy, who was as concerned with his customers' quality of life, as he was with making money. We've moved farther down the family chain. Attitudes change, priorities change and market conditions change.

When Spanish Springs was build in 1994, there were about 5000 homes in The Villages.

Between the construction of Lake Sumter Landing and Brownwood Paddock, approximately 30,000 homes were added. About 35,000 homes have been added since the opening of Brownwood Paddock.

The neighborhood changes.

BrianL99 01-22-2025 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marathon Man (Post 2403512)
I have lived south of 44 for several years now. None of us travel north to play golf. We have all the golf that we need down here. The myth that the southern expansion affects golf in the north is a myth. Perhaps more golfers are moving into TV north. Why is that not considered?

Because it's a fact, not a myth.

I don't know anything about Executive Golf (so my answer isn't related to Amenity Fees), but up until this year, there was only (1) 18 hole golf course located in what most folks consider the "south". Now there are 2. The quality of the 2 courses in the south, don't compare with the other 18 or 27 hole courses.

I get it. When the expansion to the south was going on, the golf business was in the toilet. The Developer surely saw the writing on the wall and cut back on golf course investment ... everyone did. Covid changed the world of golf.

To suggest the addition of 30,000+ homes hasn't affected access to existing golf courses, defies logic.

biker1 01-22-2025 09:32 AM

I believe the following numbers are essentially correct, someone please correct if not so. When we moved here in 2014, there were approximately 1500 homes per executive golf course. Since then, approximately 30,000 new homes have been built and 10 new executive course have been added (plus 4 Pitch and Putts). The ratio of homes to executive courses appears to have changed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2403547)
Because it's a fact, not a myth.

I don't know anything about Executive Golf (so my answer isn't related to Amenity Fees), but up until this year, there was only (1) 18 hole golf course located in what most folks consider the "south". Now there are 2. The quality of the 2 courses in the south, don't compare with the other 18 or 27 hole courses.

I get it. When the expansion to the south was going on, the golf business was in the toilet. The Developer surely saw the writing on the wall and cut back on golf course investment ... everyone did. Covid changed the world of golf.

To suggest the addition of 30,000+ homes hasn't affected access to existing golf courses, defies logic.


Bill14564 01-22-2025 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biker1 (Post 2403551)
I believe the following numbers are essentially correct, someone please correct if not so. When we moved here in 2014, there were approximately 1500 homes per executive golf course. Since then, approximately 30,000 new homes have been built and 10 new executive course have been added (plus 4 Pitch and Putts). The ratio of homes to executive courses appears to have changed.

You would also need to know how many homes there were when you moved in order to calculate the new ratio.

In 2014 the Brownwood area was still being built out. Perhaps the desired ratio was 1,700 homes per course and would be reached when Brownwood was complete. If that was the case then the 14 courses you mentioned would support 23,800 of the 30,000 homes. The additional 6,200 homes would represent the completion of the Brownwood area and the additional 200 homes per course planned for when you arrived.

biker1 01-22-2025 10:37 AM

When we moved in, there were, IIRC, 32 executives and about 49,000 homes. Today, I believe there are about 80,000 homes and 42 executives. I am not counting the Pitch and Putts. So, we have gone from about 1500 homes per executive to about 1900 homes per executive. You can certainly do the calculations using the Pitch and Putts but I doubt there are many people putting in requests for the Pitch and Putts based on the large number of tee times available on the Pitch and Putts 3 days in advance. The net impact is tee times are noticeably harder to obtain for the executives via the request system during snowbird season. My requests are denied frequently with a large number of courses and a wide time window. There really aren't any issues outside of snowbird season. In an ideal world, we would have about 52 executives but it is what it is. I have been running large groups for over 10 years. We play the Pitch and Putts when the executive requests are denied; that is typically 3 out of 4 weeks per month during snowbird season.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2403564)
You would also need to know how many homes there were when you moved in order to calculate the new ratio.

In 2014 the Brownwood area was still being built out. Perhaps the desired ratio was 1,700 homes per course and would be reached when Brownwood was complete. If that was the case then the 14 courses you mentioned would support 23,800 of the 30,000 homes. The additional 6,200 homes would represent the completion of the Brownwood area and the additional 200 homes per course planned for when you arrived.


Mark57 01-22-2025 10:47 AM

I think you explain our amenities system very clearly and thanks for that.

BrianL99 01-22-2025 11:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by biker1 (Post 2403596)
When we moved in, there were, IIRC, 32 executives and about 49,000 homes. Today, I believe there are about 80,000 homes and 42 executives. I am not counting the Pitch and Putts. So, we have gone from about 1500 homes per executive to about 1900 homes per executive.

Population of TV: The Villages New Home Sales: 2003-Present | Inside the Bubble

There were about 33 Executive Golf courses in TV, in 2014. (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/fo...enging-147593/)

In 2016 there were 36 Executive courses (see attached, the document won't download for me).

tophcfa 01-22-2025 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biker1 (Post 2403596)
When we moved in, there were, IIRC, 32 executives and about 49,000 homes. Today, I believe there are about 80,000 homes and 42 executives. I am not counting the Pitch and Putts. So, we have gone from about 1500 homes per executive to about 1900 homes per executive. You can certainly do the calculations using the Pitch and Putts but I doubt there are many people putting in requests for the Pitch and Putts based on the large number of tee times available on the Pitch and Putts 3 days in advance. The net impact is tee times are noticeably harder to obtain for the executives via the request system during snowbird season. My requests are denied frequently with a large number of courses and a wide time window. There really aren't any issues outside of snowbird season. In an ideal world, we would have about 52 executives but it is what it is. I have been running large groups for over 10 years. We play the Pitch and Putts when the executive requests are denied; that is typically 3 out of 4 weeks per month during snowbird season.

Good and accurate information. This is our tenth winter owning a home in the Villages and our experience getting t times during busy season on the Executives is the same. The last three years or so are not even comparable to 9 or 10 years ago. This winter seems no worse than last year, but things will change when it warms up.

BrianL99 01-22-2025 11:40 AM

In the interest of full disclosure.

Not the same as the Executive Courses here, but illustrative of what others face.

I went to Naples to play golf last week, it was about 10-15 degrees warmer.

I played all private golf courses, all of which cost over $10,000/year in dues.

My friends who hosted me are lucky if they can get 2-3 Tee Times per week, if they want to play golf before 1 PM. Almost every club uses the Chelsea System for allocating Tee Times (as does The Villages, I believe).

Goldwingnut 01-22-2025 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2403627)
Almost every club uses the Chelsea System for allocating Tee Times (as does The Villages, I believe).

The Villages golf system is a home grown and unique system. Because of the number of courses, the point system, shared system of Executive & Championship, and the voulme of Tee times it is very complex. About 5 years ago when PWAC was dealing with the contract for it and put it back out to bid, they received no bids except for TSG (designer and provider of the system), the feedback they received from the other bidders was 1) it was too complex for their system, 2) the volume of reservations was more than they could sustain, 3) too many courses, and 4) too many variable for scheduling.

TSG still maintains the system, their contact has an annual CPI adjustment, and they have become more receptive to changes to the software - the first change made was to allow paying of annual trail fees online instead of having to go to a Regional Rec Center.

biker1 01-22-2025 12:54 PM

I started seeing my tee time requests (for a group of about 16) being denied regularly about 5 years ago. Prior to that, it was a rare event. In the last several years, I started excluding those with more than 3 points. I don't think it has made much of a difference. An average points total over about 2 has a good probability of being denied with 25 courses and a 4 hour time window.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tophcfa (Post 2403619)
Good and accurate information. This is our tenth winter owning a home in the Villages and our experience getting t times during busy season on the Executives is the same. The last three years or so are not even comparable to 9 or 10 years ago. This winter seems no worse than last year, but things will change when it warms up.


Goldwingnut 01-22-2025 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 2403665)
Many have asserted that the Developer is no longer involved with the existing Villages (at least those south of 466, not sure what the specifics of the historic area or Marion County section might be). If that is the case, then the Developer bowing out should have no impact at all.

On the other hand, it could be that many of the companies being contracted with are Developer-owned or associated. In that case, if he took his toys and goes home, the CDDs may be left scrambling to fill the gaps.

If you take the time to review the annual audits of the various CDDs that are performed by an independent auditor you'll see that very little is contracted with developer owned companies, the two biggest are TSG for IT support and The Villages Media Group for advertising.

Bill14564 01-22-2025 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403673)
If you take the time to review the annual audits of the various CDDs that are performed by an independent auditor you'll see that very little is contracted with developer owned companies, the two biggest are TSG for IT support and The Villages Media Group for advertising.

I don’t have the time or interest (or resources for that matter) to trace ownership of those companies. With the number of companies the Developer owns it could be extremely difficult to trace all the connections. Plus, I also included companies only associated with the Developer whether they are wholly owned or not.

The point I was trying to make is that the impact of the Developer leaving looks negligible but might have impacts that won’t be seen unless it happened.

BrianL99 01-22-2025 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403648)
The Villages golf system is a home grown and unique system. Because of the number of courses, the point system, shared system of Executive & Championship, and the voulme of Tee times it is very complex. About 5 years ago when PWAC was dealing with the contract for it and put it back out to bid, they received no bids except for TSG (designer and provider of the system), the feedback they received from the other bidders was 1) it was too complex for their system, 2) the volume of reservations was more than they could sustain, 3) too many courses, and 4) too many variable for scheduling.

TSG still maintains the system, their contact has an annual CPI adjustment, and they have become more receptive to changes to the software - the first change made was to allow paying of annual trail fees online instead of having to go to a Regional Rec Center.

I think you may find that TSG has licensed some aspects of their system from Chelsea Systems or has some sort of deal with them. The point system is almost identical, albeit the TV system has more variables than most users.

Chelsea is in Coral Gables and is now owned by Northstar, who one of the biggest players in the country club and golf world. I can't believe they wouldn't be interested in TV's business and wouldn't respond to an RFP, unless they already have a piece the action.

justjim 01-22-2025 06:12 PM

The monthly fee ($8) for Village.net hasn’t changed. It must be profitable. When something isn’t broke why fix it?

BrianL99 01-22-2025 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403673)
very little is contracted with developer owned companies, the two biggest are TSG for IT support and The Villages Media Group for advertising.

How could the "advertising budget" for the District, be in the same ball park as the IT support budget?

MrChip72 01-22-2025 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justjim (Post 2403729)
The monthly fee ($8) for Village.net hasn’t changed. It must be profitable. When something isn’t broke why fix it?

If you go by that, people would still be using typewriters.

The golf system needs to be updated and mobile apps made available. I've worked in software development my whole career. It's likely that a newer system would easier to use and cheaper to maintain.

The villages golf system would not be very difficult at all to rewrite into a modern system accessible by web or smartphone apps.

OrangeBlossomBaby 01-22-2025 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403673)
If you take the time to review the annual audits of the various CDDs that are performed by an independent auditor you'll see that very little is contracted with developer owned companies, the two biggest are TSG for IT support and The Villages Media Group for advertising.

They own the bank. They own the squares. They own the properties upon which the businesses around the squares exist. They own the new developments, UNTIL such time as they hand them off to the CDDs, which doesn't happen until they're finished with that area's buildout. They own the real estate agency that has exclusive rights to represent all new construction. They own the mortgage company. They own the Sharon Morse center. They own properties outside The Villages (the Publix/Winn-Dixie strip mall next to Spanish Springs). They own the properties upon which many medical centers are located, and the buildings the people running those centers pay rent on.

At some point - maybe not in our lifetimes, but at some point - there will be an "end of the line" of the family, and that end of the line will say "nope, not interested." Given that they own SO MUCH of all this - what will happen to it all when they finally walk away? They can. There's nothing stopping them from simply rejecting any lease renewals on properties they rent out, and letting those leases expire, and shutting down all the buildings, disconnecting services, and walking away.

They could sell it all, one piece at a time, to whoever they feel like selling it to, liquidate the whole shebang. And there is nothing we can do about it because - they own it all. No more medical centers, no more live music on the squares, no more businesses IN the squares, no more performances at the Sharon Morse Center, and heck - they could probably even shut down the Charter schools.

What guarantees - in writing - do we residents of The Villages have, that this won't happen? What measures have the CDDs and other government structures taken to ensure the continued running of the community in perpetuity?

rustyp 01-23-2025 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2403742)
They own the bank. They own the squares. They own the properties upon which the businesses around the squares exist. They own the new developments, UNTIL such time as they hand them off to the CDDs, which doesn't happen until they're finished with that area's buildout. They own the real estate agency that has exclusive rights to represent all new construction. They own the mortgage company. They own the Sharon Morse center. They own properties outside The Villages (the Publix/Winn-Dixie strip mall next to Spanish Springs). They own the properties upon which many medical centers are located, and the buildings the people running those centers pay rent on.

At some point - maybe not in our lifetimes, but at some point - there will be an "end of the line" of the family, and that end of the line will say "nope, not interested." Given that they own SO MUCH of all this - what will happen to it all when they finally walk away? They can. There's nothing stopping them from simply rejecting any lease renewals on properties they rent out, and letting those leases expire, and shutting down all the buildings, disconnecting services, and walking away.

They could sell it all, one piece at a time, to whoever they feel like selling it to, liquidate the whole shebang. And there is nothing we can do about it because - they own it all. No more medical centers, no more live music on the squares, no more businesses IN the squares, no more performances at the Sharon Morse Center, and heck - they could probably even shut down the Charter schools.

What guarantees - in writing - do we residents of The Villages have, that this won't happen? What measures have the CDDs and other government structures taken to ensure the continued running of the community in perpetuity?

Beginning of the end?

Electronic headline this morning:
"Despite encompassing dozens of individual neighborhoods, a retirement website collectively ranked The Villages as the second most popular active adult community, one spot behind a subdivision in Ocala that took the top spot." :shrug:

dewilson58 01-23-2025 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2403742)
They own the bank. They own the squares. They own the properties upon which the businesses around the squares exist. They own the new developments, UNTIL such time as they hand them off to the CDDs, which doesn't happen until they're finished with that area's buildout. They own the real estate agency that has exclusive rights to represent all new construction. They own the mortgage company. They own the Sharon Morse center. They own properties outside The Villages (the Publix/Winn-Dixie strip mall next to Spanish Springs). They own the properties upon which many medical centers are located, and the buildings the people running those centers pay rent on.

At some point - maybe not in our lifetimes, but at some point - there will be an "end of the line" of the family, and that end of the line will say "nope, not interested." Given that they own SO MUCH of all this - what will happen to it all when they finally walk away? They can. There's nothing stopping them from simply rejecting any lease renewals on properties they rent out, and letting those leases expire, and shutting down all the buildings, disconnecting services, and walking away.

They could sell it all, one piece at a time, to whoever they feel like selling it to, liquidate the whole shebang. And there is nothing we can do about it because - they own it all. No more medical centers, no more live music on the squares, no more businesses IN the squares, no more performances at the Sharon Morse Center, and heck - they could probably even shut down the Charter schools.

What guarantees - in writing - do we residents of The Villages have, that this won't happen? What measures have the CDDs and other government structures taken to ensure the continued running of the community in perpetuity?


This is nothing more than fear-mongering.

Yep, there are billions of dollars of value in these agreements/transactions and "the family" is just going to end them and throw away the value. :loco::loco::loco:

The second statement is even more silly. They sell the agreements/transactions/properties and the new buyer just shuts everything down and ignores their billion dollar investment. Again........:loco::loco::loco:

dewilson58 01-23-2025 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyp (Post 2403797)
Beginning of the end?

:

Just wait five minutes and a new article will be out and a new ranking will be published. Nothing new.

:oops:

Goldwingnut 01-23-2025 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyp (Post 2403797)
Beginning of the end?

Electronic headline this morning:
"Despite encompassing dozens of individual neighborhoods, a retirement website collectively ranked The Villages as the second most popular active adult community, one spot behind a subdivision in Ocala that took the top spot." :shrug:

A dozen years ago when Debbie and I started looking at a retirement community to move to we looked OTOW 55+'s #1 community in this article, and about a dozen others. We back shelved TV initially because we were concerned about the price and size of the community. During our months of looking here in Florida (we live just outside Winter Haven in Haines City, so it was all easy day trips for us to look) we looked at well over two dozen communities and weighed the +'s and -"s of each. Many of the smaller ones either had reached or were near their end of life for development and showed the disinterest by their developer in sustaining the community, "resident owned" quickly turned into a red flag. There was a commonality between ALL of the larger and growing communities that without exception ALWAYS surfaced in listening to the sales pitch, a statement to the effect of "Our community is better than The Villages because..." and there was always some nuance that they felt made them better.

I made a lot of notes on each community, there were many things to like about each- location, floor plans, unique features, etc. and many things to dislike - HOA fees & rules, cost, limited amenities, location, etc.. The "we're better than TV" comments quickly became another line item I tracked.

One thing I learned long ago, when every business compares themselves to another business, they are telling you who their main competition is. When every business compares themselves to the same business, you know who the best is, they are all telling you.

I looked at OTOW twice before making a final decision, the prices were less than TV, and they were close to a lot of businesses in Ocala - big winner on both points without doubt. But the downsides stood out like a sore thumb- limited amenities and activities, but most importantly a felling of desolation permeated the community - no one outside, no one at the pool, no one being active outside, no one using the community center, nobody around and when you did see someone not a wave or a smile was returned in exchange, the place felt like a graveyard. OTOW quickly moved to the BOTL (bottom of the list).

Even after buying in TV I ventured back to OTOW "just to make sure", over the years I've made multiple trips there and even looked at expanding my home photo business there. Working in Gainesville for 3 years while living in TV I saw their signs a lot on I75, and they kept drawing me in, I felt compelled to "look again" - the power of effective advertising. I made the right decision.

I've visited several other 55+ communities since retiring nearly 7 years ago, curious yes, in search of greener pastures, perhaps. In fact Margaritaville in on my list to visit next - AFTER this COLD weather passes. Something about the name is drawing me to the bar...

Don't loose sight of the fact that 55+ is a for profit website and they want clicks for their advertisers ads. Take a look at who's advertising and compare that to their list of "best places", 1+1=2, money talks. Based on my personal experience, there may be many communities that can give TV a run for their money for a variety of reasons, but in my opinion OTOW wouldn't make the short list.

Goldwingnut 01-23-2025 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianL99 (Post 2403731)
How could the "advertising budget" for the District, be in the same ball park as the IT support budget?

TVMG is the primary printing company used by the District for everything from forms to be filled out to the Rec News insert, they also do lots of advertising for recreation events on WVLG which is also a part of the TVMG, it's a bundled package. The District office works to combine the service needed by all the entities they support into as few contacts as possible to help realize cost savings (the Costco effect?).

When last I did a detailed budget review before leaving the CDD10 board and PWAC the combined numbers for all CDDs and amenities were about $1M with TVMG and about $4M with TSG - pretty much a drop in the bucket for the combined budgets that these contracts provide service to. The combined amenities budgets is about $225M this year and there are many more budget that draw support from these contracts for support.

BrianL99 01-23-2025 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403839)
TVMG is the primary printing company used by the District for everything from forms to be filled out to the Rec News insert, they also do lots of advertising for recreation events on WVLG which is also a part of the TVMG, it's a bundled package. The District office works to combine the service needed by all the entities they support into as few contacts as possible to help realize cost savings (the Costco effect?).

Thanks Don. When you add printing into the equation, it's a no-brainer. & at $1m vs $4M it's not even close.

I'd suggest the IT Budget is a huge number, but at 2% of budget, it's obviously inline.

ElDiabloJoe 01-23-2025 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403833)
...

One thing I learned long ago, when every business compares themselves to another business, they are telling you who their main competition is. When every business compares themselves to the same business, you know who the best is, they are all telling you.

...
Exactly right!
...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403833)
...I've visited several other 55+ communities since retiring nearly 7 years ago, curious yes, in search of greener pastures, perhaps. In fact Margaritaville in on my list to visit next - AFTER this COLD weather passes. Something about the name is drawing me to the bar...
....

We visited all three of the existing Latitudes Margaritavilles (Hilton Head, Daytona, Watersound near 30A).
My greatest fear with them, besides their microcosm-like size compared to The Villages, is what happens when they reach buildout and the Developer pulls out. The sales office and staff go away, the subsidies go away, the resort pool needs acid-washing and replastering, etc..

That being said, they have one HUGE advantage over The Villages, imho. Their home floorpans and the interior design of the model homes are superior. None of the "shotgun" style Village floorplans wherein you walk in the front door and see straight out to the lanai. No, the floorpans are comfortable, well laid out, and interesting. The way they made the plans with the smallest square footage so usable is impressive. I'm speaking of the cottage and villa plans such as the dreamsicle, bamboo, Jamaica, and Nevis for example. For what it is worth, the interior design of the models at Hilton Head is more impressive than the other two properties.

My concerns stated in the first paragraph are why we opted against Latitude Margaritaville. We did a Lifestyle visit (I think they call it a StayNPlay) at theDaytona property. Aside from the ability to drive the golf cart off property to a Publix or to their version of a town center, there wasn't a whole lot of other use for a cart. Their town centers, by the way, consist of a gym, a business center for faxing, etc., a small performance area, and bar/grill. So, essentially a single restaurant. In my experiences it was not well used. I fear it will not be able to sustain itself once that sales office goes away.

Looking forward to hearing your insights after your visit.

MX rider 01-23-2025 12:15 PM

My SIL and her husband live in Del Webb Stone Creek in Ocala. We went there to visit and were surprised at the lack of activity on a beautiful day. Hardly anyone outdoors.

One thing we found out when we looked at other +55 communities was how expensive golf is. Usually 1 or 2 courses and membership was very expensive.

Many HOA fees were way north of $500 and golf not included.

RL Lemke 01-23-2025 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldwingnut (Post 2403364)
Bottom line is, until you pony up and put your money at risk like they have, you don’t get a say in what the future holds and what they build, and they get to make all the decisions.

When I was working, I developed Special Districts, which The Villages is one of the only two in Florida. My experience with this form of development yields a great deal of comfort with how the family has continued with the program initiated some 30 years ago with Spanish Springs.

I also take comfort seeing that the next generation of the family is stepping up to continue the family business.

As Don says, it is a risk. 30+ years of inertia indicates the risk is small. I take a great deal of comfort in relying on a family development program, as opposed to my decades of experience in dealing with government.

OrangeBlossomBaby 01-23-2025 06:54 PM

Interesting (not really) that a few people criticize me for asking the question, and the person I asked the question to instead answered one of the people criticizing me - and no one has answered the question.

It's not fearmongering. It's not doomsaying. It's a direct, clearly worded, well-detailed question. If you aren't capable of answering it, that's fine. But it's a question I had before I moved in that no one would answer, and it's a question I've seen here on ToTV by other people, though worded differently.

So far, my only take-away from the non-answers I've seen is:

"Nope, nothing in writing. But we all trust the Morse Family to never stop, and their descendants who inherit this place will love doing it and keep doing it, or will sell to buyers who have the same vested interest in keeping the theme of this community intact. We believe, because of some faith in some unspoken, unwritten thing, that any new buyers will NOT turn the squares into strip malls or apartment buildings or parking lots for office parks, and leave the residents to their own devices."

That's my take-away. That you believe what you believe, because you believe it. Not because anyone has given you any assurances that it'll be any different.

That's okay, you're allowed to have your beliefs. But it does answer the question with a "nope - nothing in writing, no guarantees."

BrianL99 01-23-2025 07:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RL Lemke (Post 2403930)
When I was working, I developed Special Districts, which The Villages is one of the only two in Florida. .

There are over 400 CDD's in Florida.

There are nearly 2000 Special Districts in Florida.

Bill14564 01-23-2025 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 2403935)
Interesting (not really) that a few people criticize me for asking the question, and the person I asked the question to instead answered one of the people criticizing me - and no one has answered the question.

It's not fearmongering. It's not doomsaying. It's a direct, clearly worded, well-detailed question. If you aren't capable of answering it, that's fine. But it's a question I had before I moved in that no one would answer, and it's a question I've seen here on ToTV by other people, though worded differently.

So far, my only take-away from the non-answers I've seen is:

"Nope, nothing in writing. But we all trust the Morse Family to never stop, and their descendants who inherit this place will love doing it and keep doing it, or will sell to buyers who have the same vested interest in keeping the theme of this community intact. We believe, because of some faith in some unspoken, unwritten thing, that any new buyers will NOT turn the squares into strip malls or apartment buildings or parking lots for office parks, and leave the residents to their own devices."

That's my take-away. That you believe what you believe, because you believe it. Not because anyone has given you any assurances that it'll be any different.

That's okay, you're allowed to have your beliefs. But it does answer the question with a "nope - nothing in writing, no guarantees."

No, there is nothing in writing to prevent the Developer from walking away, allowing the leases to end, and letting all the properties go to seed. They can do whatever they want with their properties and if they want to lose millions in leases each year they could do it.

That is not something that is going to keep me up at night.

As far as the Developer deciding to sell and a new owner choosing to close the squares in favor of mini strip malls….I won’t live to see it so again, not something that will keep me up at night.


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