Vehicles are required to give a minimum space of three feet when passing a cyclist. A 6' wide car, a 3' wide cyclist, and a 3' space would mean a lane width of 12' at a bare minimum to be safe. The lanes on Morse appear to be 11'.

I don't see where in your links the issue of bicycles running abreast is addressed.

What point are you arguing? I made three points:

1. Bicycles can claim the entire lane - I provided the Statute that supports that
2. Bicycles can ride two abreast - I provided the Statute that supports that
3. Pedestrians may walk on the shoulder - I provided 316.130(4) which supports that

Pedestrians must use the sidewalk of one exists. If one does not exist then pedestrians must use the shoulder.

There is a clown who rides his bike on the sidewalk up and down pinellas. Gets annoyed by walkers.

Is that specified in the link you referred to? What paragraph, what letter sub-heading. I'm not saying it's not there, just that I can't find it in all that verbiage on other subjects.

My apologies.

316.083 paragraphs (2) and (3):

(2) The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle or an electric bicycle occupying the same travel lane must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle or electric bicycle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet or, if such movement cannot be safely accomplished, must remain at a safe distance behind the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle or electric bicycle until the driver can safely pass at a distance of not less than 3 feet and must safely clear the overtaken bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle or electric bicycle.
(3) The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle, or an electric bicycle, occupying a bicycle lane must pass the bicycle, other nonmotorized vehicle, or electric bicycle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle, other nonmotorized vehicle, or electric bicycle.

No, MY apologies. I was looking at 316.0083 (missed that extra "0") which has nothing to do with overtaking bicycles.
BTW, you and I are on the same side in this argument. I just couldn't find your references because I was looking in the wrong place.

I'll just address your highlighted "answer" Why does the cyclist get to be the dictator of when it is safe to pass. Maybe I think it is safe. Maybe he should respect my decision.

Because you aren't the one who is going to get injured if you are wrong.

Don't know that. If I'm wrong I may run head-on into a tree while the cyclist is unscathed.

About riding down the middle of the lane. If I am in a car behind a bicyclist and they are going as fast as the flow of cars are going ( say 35 in a posted 30 mph road because people go OVER the speed limit often) (or say 25 in a posted 20 mph road) then I have no problem staying behind that cyclist. However, if they are going 15 mph on a 30 mph road, then I and most other vehicle drivers are going to WANT to pass them.
.......I do not want to drive close to and endanger a cyclist. But, I would appreciate if they would move to their inside right (to be considerate of me) and I will move to my left when I pass (to be considerate of them). There should be a yard or more distance apart that way.
.......If a cyclist that is going slowly stays in the middle of the lane, then we will BOTH be delayed (going slowly) and I will have to wait until there is no oncoming traffic before I can pass.
.........When I ride a bicycle I know that I am SLOWER than the cars even in a residential area, so I ALWAYS move to the right. I go WAY to the right, even if I have to go about 1 foot onto someone's grass. Sorry grass, but I am more important than you. And I don't trust vehicles to pass me safely - I have had TOO many close calls even as a younger biker. I would even stop if I had to and wait until my road or street was clear. I have seen the older drivers here in cars or even golf cars weave far off the right edge of a street - they lose concentration easily.
........so, in conclusion.......I would NOT ride a bike down the middle of a road unless I could see behind me for a long-distance

As a cyclist, I always give pedestrians plenty of space on both the multi purpose trails and when they are running in the road illegally. Unless you were training for the marathons on the multi purpose trails and NOT the roads, you were breaking the law. Unlike cyclists, pedestrians do NOT have right to use the roads for jogging. I'm sure neighborhood streets are considered an exception to the Florida Statutes. See the Florida Statutes, below.

The 2021 Florida Statutes
Title XXIII
MOTOR VEHICLES
Chapter 316
STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL
316.130 Pedestrians; traffic regulations.—
(3) Where sidewalks are provided, no pedestrian shall, unless required by other circumstances, walk along and upon the portion of a roadway paved for vehicular traffic.
(4) Where sidewalks are not provided, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk only on the shoulder on the left side of the roadway in relation to the pedestrian’s direction of travel, facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction.
(10) Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a marked crosswalk or within an unmarked crosswalk at an intersection shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.
(12) No pedestrian shall, except in a marked crosswalk, cross a roadway at any other place than by a route at right angles to the curb or by the shortest route to the opposite curb.

Not according to Florida Laws.

///

Everyone who drives a car/truck is "autonomous".. you don't have a wingman...

All who fly fighter jets, bicycles and motorcycles always have that SEPARATE eyes and ears on situational awareness....

So, if one bicyclist on the MMP slides to the left, they are telling you it's unsafe to pass regardless of how fast you can accelerate and swerve past a pack...wait until there is a good long straightaway...patience, grasshopper!

[QUOTE=OrangeBlossomBaby;2090215]

3. I don't know what you mean by cyclist shoes. I wear sneakers, just normal sneakers. I also wear leggings or skin-hugging shorts, because otherwise I get chafing on my thighs from constant peddling up and down against the bike seat.


Intriguing! Got any pictures you can share with the group. Not the shoes I’m not a weirdo:popcorn:

What?

Who are you referring to?

Again, I disagree. What makes the cyclist the sole judge of "when it is safe to pass"?
What makes the cyclists' judgement better??? My judgement is better than 99% of the drivers out there, so I feel absolutely no obligation to take "orders" from a random cyclist. THEY do not get to direct traffic. IF, again IF I decide to pass, it is only if I can give the cyclist at least 3 feet, and get back on my side of the MMP before any oncoming traffic approaches, and never in the single lane divided areas. IF, and again IF, a cyclist decides to move left as I am safely passing, that is on him. If you read one of the earlier posts in this thread, someone was stuck behind a cyclist for 2 miles. That is unacceptable, there is no way that the opportunity to pass did not arise in that span, yet the cyclist continually blocked the MMP (IF that post was truthful)

OR, they are driving/riding under the influence.

:shrug:

Jim, if you are behind a car that's driving slower than the speed limit, and you want to go the speed limit, and you're in a no-passing zone - do you blow a gasket? Or do you just follow along, being somewhat annoyed but not bent out of shape, until the slow car turns off the road or you're finally allowed to pass them?

Or do you pass them illegally?

Or do you turn off the road and take a detour?

It is not illegal to go 15mph in a 30mph zone. I can't stand it, personally, when people go too slow. But I prefer going as fast as I can safely, regardless of some arbitrary number on a sign. In my case, I will gladly take the risk of being pulled over for speeding, rather than be in front of a line of cars that merely want to go the speed limit but can't because I'm driving too slow.

I'm willing to own my choices. But I also accept the choice of the slow driver who chooses to obey the law while still annoying the crap out of me in the process. There are plenty of car drivers, and golf cart drivers, who drive WAY too slowly. On Morse Blvd when the speed is 35mph, they might be driving in the passing lane at only 20mph with no sign of intention to take a left, not approaching a round-about. Just moseying along being in everyone's way.

You don't hear people beeping their horns, you don't see people getting road rage and shooting the slow driver, you don't see multiple posts expressing their anger in a tirade against these miscreants and deviants of our perfect society.

Instead, you usually just see people pass them on the right when they can, or eventually get to their destination 2 minutes later than planned.

ah..but...the cyclist has no clue as to your amazingness. In fact, the smart cyclist if he/she wishes to remain intact, should assume that you are blind in your right eye, have no idea as to the spatial relationship of the right front fender, and your sugar meds are off a tad today.
I lost a friend and neighbor to someone who wasn't as amazing as you, unfortunately. The driver who clipped him was exactly as described above.

Not my problem

Correct. And it's not the cyclists problem if you have to wait until he/she feels it's safe to move over and let you pass.

It's not up to the cyclist to feel safe enough to move over and *let* someone pass. The cyclist has the right to one lane, not the entire path (or road).

*IF* the cyclist could see something the cart driver could not then that *might* excuse an illegal move to prevent an accident but nothing that was said so far indicates that was the case. If the cyclist simply decided "you're not passing me today, not happening" and blocked the second lane then he/she was in the wrong and it's lucky for the cyclist that his/her actions didn't cause the situation to escalate into something worse.

We all (cyclist, car driver, cart driver) should be calling out bad behavior not trying to defend it.

So your position is that a cyclist ignorant of the driving skills of a cart that wants to pass gets to dictate traffic flow? Seriously??? Sorry, cyclists don’t own the MMPs

It is my position that the cyclist is correct if in his estimation, there is not enough room for a cart to pass between him and the left edge of the roadway. This could be because it's where the MMP is divided, and there isn't enough width to safely do it. It could be because in his estimation there isn't enough vision ahead to be sure the passing cart will make it by with sufficient room before the possibility of an unseen oncoming cart could cause a dangerous situation with the passing cart possibly needing to make an abrupt reentry into the right lane at the cyclist's expense.

The alternative is for the cyclist to assume the cart driver isn't stupid, and that is a dangerous assumption to make.
It's not about who "owns" the MMP. It's about whose safety is at stake in that situation, and who has to make the call so nobody gets hurt.

Bingo.

I'd also add that when we allow pride to dictate our actions, we're on some dangerous ground. None of us are infallible.

Sorry, but I’M driving MY cart. I couldn’t care less about somebody else’s “estimation”. The cyclist is NOT driving FOR me, so he can keep HIS backseat driving estimate to himself. Again, my comments are predicated on being able to SAFELY pass, in MY estimate, NOT YOURS. When you are driving your car and run up to some bozo driving 30 in a 55 zone, do you rely on THEIR judgment as to when it is safe to pass or your own? Your comment suggests that somehow cyclists have far superior judgment skills than the rest of us

Starting with cyclists

I think we've all read enough of your posts to know you will never admit you are wrong, no matter what.
Carry on.

Hey El Diablo Joe, I will not let you remain defenseless. Below are my personal observations (with comments), along with a question for the OP Laker14 as invited (whose post I sincerely appreciate and have learned from BTW):

In my (too many) years of experience, cyclists, upon encountering those on foot (even in an area designated for both bicycles and pedestrians and in the right-edge of the right lane) seem to generally have an initial territorial-like response, viewing the body of that slow-moving pedestrian as an annoying obstacle, and that person as an interloper to their roadway and possible impediment to maintaining their momentum, focus, etc.

See any similarity to the way car drivers react when they see one or more bicycles they cannot pass?

(Cyclists may assume to have a higher moral ground re fossil fuel usage, but for fun I'll share that spandex (like a multitude of daily-use items) is manufactured with fossil fuels/petroleum and not via spigots tapped into rubber tree plants; see: The Environmental Impact of Spandex - One Green Planet )

So, my question to OP Laker14 as inspired the post by ElDiabloJoe is: What percentage of serious cyclists do you think are irritated when they encounter a pedestrian while riding the MMPs? And also, what percentage are so irritated that they might deliberately pass at a close clip?

I would not really expect you to furnish a guesstimate for the second question.

My guess is at least 90% are irritated, and maybe 25%-30% are even irritated enough to deliberately pass at a close clip, overconfident re their navigational abilities & reaction time and not realizing how severe a physical injury could result to the unwary pedestrian if the latter (a person with ability to make sharp movements and not just a static, annoying blob in the roadway) made the slightest unexpected movement that would result in a collision?

Edit: I'm adding a last paragraph to the OP because in re-reading, I think my post sounded antagonistic to cyclists. I didn't mean it to be that way. Maybe a little envious that I'll never be physically fit & confidant enough to ride with the "gather at 7am at Barnes & Noble" crowd. But if you have a response, I'd value your opinion.

Except in this case I am 110% correct. I guess I haven’t been clear enough. YOU do not dictate how I drive. YOU do not get to tell me what to do. YOU are not in charge of directing traffic on a MMP. I don’t care that you think you are the self appointed guardian of the roadways If you think you do, you should be prepared to be disappointed

I am a bicyclist and I was interested to see how the conversation would go on this topic. As far as multimodal paths go, they really are not suited for a fast bicyclist or a group of bicyclists to use as a major route of transport. Traffic is too heavy and there are many walkers, joggers and golf carts on them. The streets are much safer, especially when riding with a group of bicyclists separated into groups of ten. It is important that all bicycles have front and rear flashing lights as well as rear mirrors. Bicycling is an absolutely enjoyable sport and many of us are in the best shape of our lives. I am a 75 years old male and I weigh 160 pounds. I just love riding around the Villages. I would have to say that 99% of the vehicle drivers are considerate of us on the road. As for the bickering that goes on here, I just have to say “Chill out, take it easy.” Maybe go out for a run, get some good exercise to work out your frustrations. Hanging around your computer all day doesn’t seem to be a good idea. Cheers and happy exercising and whatever else you choose to do to maintain good physical and mental health.

I'm a little confused here. I get the impression from your post that you have me confused as the OP of this thread. I'm not. Not that it's important.
I gave up cycling a few years ago because I found my fear of motorists had grown to the point that I wasn't finding it enjoyable. I've never ridden a bike in TV, so I can't speak from any first hand experience.
I live on a lake in NY, and I have ridden on what I would call 1 1/2 lane roads, with cars, cars pulling boat trailers, pedestrians, runners, dog walkers, and kids on skateboards. I never got irritated with anyone on foot. I did a lot of walking on those roads myself and I would get irritated with bicyclist zooming by from my 6 O'Clock without so much as a "Behind you",,, or "on the left"...a very dangerous move in my opinion. When riding and approaching pedestrians I would slow down, and give them a "behind you, on the left" warning. I would slow to the point of being able to avoid them if they should move the wrong way.
When a cyclist would warn me I would always thank them as they passed.
I have no idea what percentage of cyclists get annoyed by pedestrians on the MMPs. If they do, they are in the wrong. IMO, just as wrong as the dude in the cart who thinks the biker should move all the way to the right so the cart can pass between oncoming carts and the biker's left knee.

I hope I've answered your question.

Well said.

I summed it up 99 posts before yours (post 12). I can share my ignore list with you which targets the posters who are determined to get the last word in, talk to themselves, and spread their own brand of negativity.

It spares me the time of seeing uneducated, unreasonable and simply ignorant posts appearing in a thread. It's a tremendous time saver for someone like myself who does not associate with ignorance in real life.

You're correct Laker14, somewhere along the line I had misidentified you as the OP of this thread.

Thanks for your reply and the background info.

Good post.
My wife and I mountain bike offroad. I don't trust drivers enough to ride the road. But we do like to ride around on the MM paths. We ride at a casual pace , and 99% of the time it's all good. We also run on the MM. But there's always that 1% that are a**holes, which includes drivers, runners and cyclists.

Get out of here with your logic, reason and politeness...

People are fighting here! :icon_wink:

Oh, and to your post? :bigbow::bigbow::bigbow: