Talk of The Villages Florida
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Talk of The Villages Florida (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/)
-   The Villages, Florida, General Discussion (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/)
-   -   Bike riders on the sidewalks (https://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/bike-riders-sidewalks-318496/)

DAVES 04-11-2021 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windguy (Post 1928664)
It’s really getting old. People hate cyclists no matter where they ride. I had thought that the 30 MPH roads with the diamond lanes were places where we wouldn’t get yelled at, but I found out I was wrong a few days ago. I was leading a group of eight and came upon a lone rider who was doing about 1-2 MPH less than us, so we moved into the main lane and apparently took too long to pass. So, some lovely individual in a cart yelled at us for not being in the diamond lane as he passed us via the oncoming-traffic lane.

Everyone seems to hate us. I wonder if it’s because they are jealous that we are in much better shape and better looking than they are. 😃

But seriously, other countries have embraced cycling and cyclists are respected. I wish people in the good ole USA would get with the program and leave the hostile, aggressive attitudes at home.
Years ago I saw a TV show about a young couple in China. They were environmental professors. Had just had a baby. Formerly they got to work by bicycle. They were apologizing for buying a car, burning fuel, pollution etc. There are so many cars, now, in China that they no longer feel safe on a bicycle.

Everyone thinks they are perfect. Respect is an interesting term. It is always someone else. I've personally seen 20-30 bicyclists going through the round a bouts in a continuous procession so that cars simply cannot turn.

On this tread as on all the others you will see people say, bike riders do did........., walkers,
do did that.............., cars do did...............

Not a single post, I did not realize, I did not see it as others see me.

TCRSO 04-11-2021 08:17 AM
A bell is the best idea. We use the paths for walks and bikes with a bell are, in my opinion, better for both the bike rider and pedestrians.

Bill Dozer 04-11-2021 08:19 AM
Bicycles are vehicles as are golf carts, walkers should stay on the left facing oncoming vehicles. Whether be roads, MMP or paths, this would provide safety for all traveling.

dhdallas 04-11-2021 08:31 AM
Take off your earphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaPoulin (Post 1928382)
I, myself ride a bike. It is only common courtesy when riding on the sidewalks with walkers to let them know when you are coming by yelling out "On your left". Don't just assume people can hear you coming because they don't. I cant believe more accidents don't happen. And then when you ask the riders to say something, they rudely respond back. If you don't want to be bothered with warning people, then ride on the side of the road where you really belong. I wish they had a rule that all bikers are not to be on the sidewalk before 10:00 a.m. When most people are walking their dogs or walking on the sidewalks. We need to all be considerate of one another. We are so lucky in the southern area of the villages to have sidewalks and the paths on the side of the road. There's no reason for us to feel like we are taking our life in our hands when we are walking on the sidewalks. Many people I know have stopped walking for this simple reason. It's wonderful to be able to start your day off without having to worry about getting hurt while you are just trying to get some exercise.
Where are these sidewalks? I have never seen any in TV. I always use my bicycle bell or call out when approaching a walker but many of them have earphones on and do not hear me. They need to turn down the volume and stay to the right.

Larchap49 04-11-2021 08:32 AM
Warnings
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyp (Post 1928455)
Solely my opinion yelling "on your left" maybe more harmful than helpful. We are a community of seniors. Hearing loss is prevalent with age. Walkers especially on the MMP's tend to hug the right side. Why - because they know a golf cart will be coming behind them where they can't see. They also recognize the sound of a golf cart instantaneously without having to look. Thus they know the situation and are not startled and less likely to jump. So when a cyclist yells the walker needs to deductive reason for multiple items rather than go into a trained response like move over to your right. 1 no forewarning like an engine sound. 2 The yell startles them and then the concentration goes into digesting what was said not necessarily run for cover. 3 Natural reaction when startled is to seek safety. The walker is already on the side of the MMP and a natural reaction maybe moving to center is safer than spraining an ankle on the edge of the blacktop and grass. Thus they went in the exact opposite direction the cyclist wanted them to go.

Solution - maybe ? Remember when we were kids the bikes had the bell you pushed with your thumb ? If most of our cyclists were equipped with this it could be a better situation than yelling. The walker gets used to what that sound means and now instinctively knows how to react. Like how your were trained what the good humor truck sound meant. Eliminates what did they say to interrupt also. Like knowing the sound of a golf cart.

MY Point - a bell VS. yelling could make for more of an instinctive VS. interpretive situation for the walker.

Attachment 89033
I am a biker and always give warning. That being said it is not always safe for bikers to ride on streets with the impaired older drivers either. As to the walkers if they would stay to the left facing traffic like you're taught since you were a child, they would know what type of traffic is approaching at all times. Pretty simple.

Larchap49 04-11-2021 08:36 AM
Walker
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhdallas (Post 1928726)
Where are these sidewalks? I have never seen any in TV. I always use my bicycle bell or call out when approaching a walker but many of them have earphones on and do not hear me. They need to turn down the volume and stay to the right.
Noooo stay to the left facing traffic. That has always been the recommended way for pedestrians walking anywhere involving traffic and pedestrians sharing paths or roadways

vintageogauge 04-11-2021 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVES (Post 1928693)
Typical of all of these threads. Too many people think the world revolves around them.
That is everywhere including the villages.

I am surprised that two people I knew from business have bought places in the back woods. One in Vermont and another with 140 acres in North Carolina.

I expect there will be posts blaming bike riders, others blaming walkers and other golf carts and cars.

I could visit my friend in Vermont or the one in North Carolina. My back is too old for that.
I could take my mountain bike. I doubt they would be happy seeing me ride off leaving them to do work.

There are options.
There is nothing wrong with retiring in the back woods. After years of a stressful job that sounds good to me. It is something I would do in a heartbeat and there is only one person stopping me, you can guess who she is.

vintageogauge 04-11-2021 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Dozer (Post 1928715)
Bicycles are vehicles as are golf carts, walkers should stay on the left facing oncoming vehicles. Whether be roads, MMP or paths, this would provide safety for all traveling.
If walkers stayed on the left the bikers would be mad as they would have to pass them on the right, too confusing for the confused.

allycat 04-11-2021 09:14 AM
Almost hit several times
 
The worst is when 2 people riding side by side coming at me and wouldn’t go single file. My dog and I had to quickly step into the grass next to the walking path. This couple has done this to me at least 2 times. Talk about rude and no concern for anyone else’s well being. I have stopped walking on the paths because the streets are literary safer.

kcrazorbackfan 04-11-2021 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaPoulin (Post 1928382)
I, myself ride a bike. It is only common courtesy when riding on the sidewalks with walkers to let them know when you are coming by yelling out "On your left". Don't just assume people can hear you coming because they don't. I cant believe more accidents don't happen. And then when you ask the riders to say something, they rudely respond back. If you don't want to be bothered with warning people, then ride on the side of the road where you really belong. I wish they had a rule that all bikers are not to be on the sidewalk before 10:00 a.m. When most people are walking their dogs or walking on the sidewalks. We need to all be considerate of one another. We are so lucky in the southern area of the villages to have sidewalks and the paths on the side of the road. There's no reason for us to feel like we are taking our life in our hands when we are walking on the sidewalks. Many people I know have stopped walking for this simple reason. It's wonderful to be able to start your day off without having to worry about getting hurt while you are just trying to get some exercise.
Stay off the sidewalks, simple as that. The MMP’s are for bicycles and carts; the sidewalks are for walkers; simple as that.......

kendi 04-11-2021 10:02 AM
Feel better now OP? Think you just solved your problem by posting this on TOTV? Just stay on the proper side of the path and look if you need to change. It's so much easier and pleasant than complaining on social media.

golfing eagles 04-11-2021 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymeister (Post 1928540)
I am going to ride where I feel safe...........
How about this: Ride where the LAW specifies that you may ride. What's "safe" for you may be dangerous to someone else.

donfey 04-11-2021 10:22 AM
Which side?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaPoulin (Post 1928382)
I, myself ride a bike. It is only common courtesy when riding on the sidewalks with walkers to let them know when you are coming by yelling out "On your left". Don't just assume people can hear you coming because they don't. I cant believe more accidents don't happen. And then when you ask the riders to say something, they rudely respond back. If you don't want to be bothered with warning people, then ride on the side of the road where you really belong. I wish they had a rule that all bikers are not to be on the sidewalk before 10:00 a.m. When most people are walking their dogs or walking on the sidewalks. We need to all be considerate of one another. We are so lucky in the southern area of the villages to have sidewalks and the paths on the side of the road. There's no reason for us to feel like we are taking our life in our hands when we are walking on the sidewalks. Many people I know have stopped walking for this simple reason. It's wonderful to be able to start your day off without having to worry about getting hurt while you are just trying to get some exercise.
IMO, bikers should ride on the right side, along with golf cars. Walkers should walk on the left, facing oncoming bikes and golf cars. So, "on your left" makes no sense.

collie1228 04-11-2021 10:30 AM
I ride my bike early each morning, and as long as I keep my speed down on the multi modal paths, I seldom have any problems. However, some walkers like to walk side by side so they can talk, and when I come up behind them, and say "coming through", they scatter and look at me like I don't belong there. Sorry ladies, I do belong there and you should not be so inconsiderate as to take up the entire multi modal path.

Raton270 04-11-2021 10:54 AM
I couldn’t agree more.

Windguy 04-11-2021 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunny2403 (Post 1928701)
The addition of electric bikes has further exasperated the problem.
How so? I’m asking sincerely so I can understand. Is it because ill-trained and inexperienced cyclists are riding faster than their experience level? Avid cyclists ride fast too, but we are generally better riders and may not be as much of a danger.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdFNJ (Post 1928556)
Yea, lots of antique stuff where we live on the other side of the tracks, I mean 44 over in the 4-30 year old areas. You guys must have moving walkways and no peddle required bike paths down there in the new world. :1rotfl:
I guess that north of Route 44 is the old 3rd world area - and south of 44 is the new 1st world area. Maybe all Villagers should wear one of 2 colors for armbands so as to identify the low-class 3rd world inhabitants from the modern, high-class 1st world southern superior citizens. Next someone will suggest that south of Route 44 should secede from the Village Union.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noslices1 (Post 1928617)
Walkers are supposed to walk on the LEFT side of the paths, walking into traffic coming toward them, so they can see what’s coming at them and can step aside.
That is probably true and is logical and has advantages. But, people will more likely walk to their right as if they are walking in Publix or driving on a 2 lane road. How could you TRAIN them to stay left on the MMPs ? You would have to hand out expensive tickets for a long time to get compliance. An impossible situation???

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyp (Post 1928652)
Simple but excellent point. The problem should rarely be encountered on MMP's and sidewalks. No reason not to walk on the left on those. Giving this a little further thought the OP mentioned dog walkers. Most people are right handed and it likely be natural to hold the dog leash in the right hand. If you were doing this you might be inclined to walk on the right side such that the leash does not cross your body and be a trip hazard. In this case it is the dog walker that has put the cyclist in a bad situation.
That brings up an interesting point about dog walking. Most people are RIGHT-handed so a dog training tradition evolved to where you walk the dog with your LEFT hand - so that when you stop to talk to your neighbor or someone you have not seen in a long time - your RIGHT hand is FREE to shake their hand. I know that is old school but that is the way I learned - it was considered the PROPER way to handle a dog. People that walk a dog with their RIGHT hand were considered illiterate in dog training. There are also more modern reasons for having your RIGHT hand free of a leash. An older person has a tendency to fall and an empty RIGHT hand would better control the fall. Also, an older person might have a cane. An older person (or younger) might have a concealed carry permit and need a free hand to defend against a robbery (a bigger problem in modern life than years ago).

toeser 04-11-2021 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaPoulin (Post 1928382)
I, myself ride a bike. It is only common courtesy when riding on the sidewalks with walkers to let them know when you are coming by yelling out "On your left". Don't just assume people can hear you coming because they don't. I cant believe more accidents don't happen. And then when you ask the riders to say something, they rudely respond back. If you don't want to be bothered with warning people, then ride on the side of the road where you really belong. I wish they had a rule that all bikers are not to be on the sidewalk before 10:00 a.m. When most people are walking their dogs or walking on the sidewalks. We need to all be considerate of one another. We are so lucky in the southern area of the villages to have sidewalks and the paths on the side of the road. There's no reason for us to feel like we are taking our life in our hands when we are walking on the sidewalks. Many people I know have stopped walking for this simple reason. It's wonderful to be able to start your day off without having to worry about getting hurt while you are just trying to get some exercise.

When I bike, I would never meet nor pass anyone on a sidewalk. If I am approaching a pedestrian, I dismount my bike and start walking until clear of them.

There really is only one place I ride on a sidewalk with any regularity and that is the one block from the east side of Sumter Landing to the multi-modal path that runs north along Morse. That's a suicide spot for bikes to be on the road.

Retired4now 04-11-2021 12:03 PM
Walking on Multi- Modals
 
When walking you need to walk “against” on coming traffic. You “never” walk with traffic. WHY? So you can visible see in front of you. No need for a biker to yell anything. I do when i see someone walking on the wrong side.

toeser 04-11-2021 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by donfey (Post 1928789)
IMO, bikers should ride on the right side, along with golf cars. Walkers should walk on the left, facing oncoming bikes and golf cars. So, "on your left" makes no sense.
People walk on the left, right, and middle of multi-modal paths. My riding has to deal with reality.

toeser 04-11-2021 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlcopper (Post 1928657)
Its illegal to ride bikes on any sidewalk.
From Google:

"Florida law clearly provides that a bicyclist can utilize sidewalks to ride a bicycle. It is perfectly legal to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk. When there is an available bicycle lane OR when the sidewalk is crowded with pedestrians, it may be better to ride the bicycle on the side of the roadway."

Toymeister 04-11-2021 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunny2403 (Post 1928701)
The addition of electric bikes has further exasperated the problem. They absolutely should be prohibited from any walking paths.
There is no 'Problem'.

1. Bikes are allowed on "sidewalks" "walking paths" nature paths" or whatever synonym you choose, in Florida. The statute has already been posted on this thread

2. Ebikes are allowed anywhere bikes are allowed unless specifically forbidden per a new law signed by our Governor in August 2020.

Your representatives have made the determination. Complain if you wish but the matter has been decided, quite recently at that.

Time to move on and complain about dog poop or lack of a Costco.

OrangeBlossomBaby 04-11-2021 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCRSO (Post 1928711)
A bell is the best idea. We use the paths for walks and bikes with a bell are, in my opinion, better for both the bike rider and pedestrians.
Bells not useful if you're coming up behind someone who is a) deaf or b) needs hearing aides but isn't wearing them or c) is wearing hearings aides but the battery is dead/volume turned down too low or d) wearing ear buds and listening to music on their ipod.

For me, it'd be jarring, and could possibly result in me swerving off the road and hurting myself. I get in a "zone" when I'm riding my own bike, and hearing a bell behind me would be such a sudden thing that I'd automatically turn my head and take my eye off what's in front of me.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintageogauge (Post 1928752)
If walkers stayed on the left the bikers would be mad as they would have to pass them on the right, too confusing for the confused.
If walkers are EVER going to stay to the left on MMPs, you will have to start a committee to pay for signs every 1/2 mile reminding ALL parties of that requirement. And your committee will have to find some way to pay for several additional policepersons to hand out LARGE dollar tickets to non-compliers. I am NOT trying to be facetious - just explaining how hard it would be to break bad habits and achieve compliance. And actually, the additional cost of police would be offset by the lower costs for emergency hospital care when these accidents happen. The quality of life would increase and the police would give seniors an increased feeling of security. Of course, I know that none of this will actually happen. It is just an example of MANY things where people complain and complain - but, will be afraid of the costs or possible tax increase. It is easy to complain but hard to organize an effort to confront and solve a problem.

vintageogauge 04-11-2021 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retired4now (Post 1928835)
When walking you need to walk “against” on coming traffic. You “never” walk with traffic. WHY? So you can visible see in front of you. No need for a biker to yell anything. I do when i see someone walking on the wrong side.
There is no oncoming traffic on a walking trail and you can't see behind you when walking on one no matter what side of the trail you are on and there is a definite need for a biker coming from behind to alert walkers especially those with a dog on a leash.

jimkerr 04-11-2021 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnaPoulin (Post 1928382)
There's no reason for us to feel like we are taking our life in our hands when we are walking on the sidewalks.
😂 Can we be any more dramatic?!!

sallyg 04-11-2021 01:51 PM
Yes! Please cyclists notify walkers in front of you that you are approaching. I have been startled countless times by riders who seem to appear so quickly and blast by me. Thank you to those that already do so. I spend most of my walk looking over my shoulder and yet I am still surprised by the speed in which the cyclists appear.

rustyp 04-11-2021 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sallyg (Post 1928886)
Yes! Please cyclists notify walkers in front of you that you are approaching. I have been startled countless times by riders who seem to appear so quickly and blast by me. Thank you to those that already do so. I spend most of my walk looking over my shoulder and yet I am still surprised by the speed in which the cyclists appear.
With respect after all these posts about walking facing traffic and the logic being both cyclist and walker can see each other in that mode why do you spend most of your walk looking over your shoulder. Please explain.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by donfey (Post 1928789)
IMO, bikers should ride on the right side, along with golf cars. Walkers should walk on the left, facing oncoming bikes and golf cars. So, "on your left" makes no sense.
And there we have the problem - pointed out dramatically. Apparently, 1/2 of TV Land thinks that one method or tradition is CORRECT and another 1/2 of TV Land believes that a 2nd method or tradition is CORRECT. There is NO compromise situation here - it is EITHER method one OR method 2 !!!!!!! I have always preferred, personally, to walk facing traffic so that I can see what is coming at me. I trust myself more than a bicycle jockey ringing a bell or yelling, "move right". And I don't see well behind me. If you call that method one then the next problem is how to inform TV land that method one is the one decided on? I could suggest radio ads and newspaper ads. Also, Police giving out LARGE DOLLAR tickets would help. Signs along the sidewalk or MMP would help. But, the most important thing would be to have ALL of TV Land agree on which method everyone NEEDS to use. 1st things 1st. Failure to agree and SELL the agreed-upon method will keep resulting in injuries. Some injuries may be only small back and arm sprains from lurching at the last minute out of the way of bikes and golf carts - some could end up much worse when you consider the aging population. You would think that an aging population would be smart and more motivated to solve this problem. A problem that needs 100% agreement and buy-in to solve.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toeser (Post 1928838)
People walk on the left, right, and middle of multi-modal paths. My riding has to deal with reality.
The solution would be for education for the walkers and Police on bicycles to give them large tickets. Compliance is needed to prevent INJURIES - and maybe only ticket penalties can change things at this point? A ticket penalty would be better than having an elderly walker lying down and bleeding on the MMP. Part of paying taxes is to be protected from your own stupidity. That's the principle of tickets for ANY safety violation.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby (Post 1928853)
Bells not useful if you're coming up behind someone who is a) deaf or b) needs hearing aides but isn't wearing them or c) is wearing hearings aides but the battery is dead/volume turned down too low or d) wearing ear buds and listening to music on their ipod.

For me, it'd be jarring, and could possibly result in me swerving off the road and hurting myself. I get in a "zone" when I'm riding my own bike, and hearing a bell behind me would be such a sudden thing that I'd automatically turn my head and take my eye off what's in front of me.
There is a solution to that. There are bike mirrors for the handlebars or that attach to sunglasses or regular glasses or to a bike helmet. The motion at a distance to the rear that is seen in the mirror will automatically alert you out of that "zone" and give you TIME to react properly. The human eye is in tune with motion - it is anthropological. Sorry about the excessive "splain'n" - I get carried away.

NoVa_Jim 04-11-2021 04:55 PM
It's All About Safety
 
1. It would be a great idea for the community to develop a set of guidelines on sharing the multi-modal paths. Signs should be posted along the MMPs advising walkers which side of the path they should stay on. It might cost a few bucks to do this but its better than someone getting seriously injured or worse. Currently, people walk on both the right and the left on the MMPs. I think walking on the left facing golf cart traffic is the safest way to go but, in any case, people walking on both sides is dangerous.

2. Cyclists should ring a bell or call out “on your left”. Walkers sometimes get distracted and unexpectedly wander away from the edge of the path. A cyclist could easily hit someone who isn’t expecting a bike coming up behind them. Yeah, some people who are hard of hearing might not hear it, but at least the majority of people will be warned. When a cyclist comes up behind me and warns me of their approach, I raise my hand so they know I heard them and say thank you when they ride by.

3. Best of all possible worlds . . . add a pedestrian lane adjacent to the MMPs.

Sidecutter 04-11-2021 05:29 PM
As a bike it’s your responsibility not to run into them.
As a walker it’s your responsibility to walk at the edge of the pavement.
Also as a walker it’s your responsibility not to step out in Front of a bicycle, Golf Cart, or automobile.
I do all three and I don’t see the issue.

EdFNJ 04-11-2021 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlcopper (Post 1928657)
Its illegal to ride bikes on any sidewalk.
Uh Uhhhh .... not here in FL ;)

Sidewalk Bicycle Riding - Florida Law | Miami Bike Accident Lawyer

Not sure how ELECTRIC BIKES are affected because it says: A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk...........has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

There has been fights regarding SEGWAYs on sidewalks and the Segway's usually lost.

jimjamuser 04-11-2021 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymeister (Post 1928848)
There is no 'Problem'.

1. Bikes are allowed on "sidewalks" "walking paths" nature paths" or whatever synonym you choose, in Florida. The statute has already been posted on this thread

2. Ebikes are allowed anywhere bikes are allowed unless specifically forbidden per a new law signed by our Governor in August 2020.

Your representatives have made the determination. Complain if you wish but the matter has been decided, quite recently at that.

Time to move on and complain about dog poop or lack a a Costco.
E-bikes limit their own top speed to conform to different legal standards. Canada is lower (I believe) than the US. But, the top speed is never higher than a pedaled bike can go. The advantage is that the rider can rest on steep uphills and can travel further distances on the level by resting sometimes. It seems to work better with older riders who like to still cover long distances like they did by pedal power alone when they were younger.

Windguy 04-11-2021 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintageogauge (Post 1928752)
If walkers stayed on the left the bikers would be mad as they would have to pass them on the right, too confusing for the confused.
I'm sorry, but that is complete BS.

Windguy 04-11-2021 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill14564 (Post 1928681)
Florida law says otherwise. In Florida, bicycles are allowed on the sidewalks. Easy google search to find references including Florida Statute 316.2065.
Still, as an avid cyclist, I cringe whenever I see someone riding on a concrete sidewalk when it's right next to a diamond lane. The people I see doing it look like they can barely ride as it is, so it's especially dangerous. I suppose they are terrified of riding in the diamond lanes...

I also avoid the walking/biking paths south of 44. They generally have two posts blocking the path to keep out the carts and it's scary riding my bike between them. Let's let the walkers have a safe place to walk. Besides, there is usually a MMP or diamond lane nearby and I don't have to worry about all the obstacles in my way and I can ride faster. I won't even ride on the cart-accessible Marsh Bend path because there is a diamond lane in the road. It's much easier riding.

Toymeister 04-12-2021 07:25 AM
...


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