Hvac
 

I replaced my Trane unit this spring. It was 20 years old. It didn't die, I just felt it didn't seem as efficient as it should be during this winter. It's only been two months and going from winter to summer, so can't speak to bills yet.

12 years had Sun Kool change it 3.5 ton new model 10 year parts and labor 9254 $

I'm not implying anything. Just trying to answer the OP's question with a point on the curve.

Regarding brand quality, here is a summary of my last 4 houses:

Current house in The Villages: Carrier system, 11+ years old. Condenser fan blade was unbalanced and was replaced under warranty, otherwise OK.

Previous home: Carrier Infinity (2 speed Bristol compressor) with 4 zones. In 10 years there were 3 compress failures, an evaporator coil leak, a condenser coil leak, 3 defrost board failures, and the user interface failed. All covered under warranty.

Previous to that home: 2 Rheem systems. No issues in the 10 years we had the house.

Previous to that home: Carrier system, evaporator coil leak after 4 years.

Quality is a crap shoot.

If the system is more than 10 years old, I would replace the entire system, including the inside air handler. If you just replace the compressor, you will still need to replace and recharge the refrigerant. It is a huge job. You will get a warranty on the compressor but it will not be as long or as comprehensive an entire system warranty. And many compressor failures are caused by something other than a defective compressor, so you may have a problem enforcing the compressor warranty. For example, suppose the evaporator coil leaks and causes the compressor to fail? I would hate to pay $2,500 or more for a new compressor and have it fail within a few months with no enforceable warranty.

There are always exceptions. I had a neighbor in NY, got a Goodman to save money. Five years later, compessor failure. Had another neighbor has Rheem/Rhudd system. Worked fairly well just very noisy. Couldn't get that resolved, just needed to live with it. In my townhome development we had American Standard very few failures all the way to 15 years. Here in the Villages most Carrier single stage units are working 10+ years with little to no failures and that's a lot of systems. There are so many variables that can affect how long your system lasts but the point was the premium tier brands, generally should last the longest and be the most trouble free compared to the cheaper lower tier brands since the tend to use cheaper components that aren't designed to last as long and that's why there are less expensive.

When the Carrier Infinity systems first came out, like yours, they did have a lot of issues, but over time the system has changed dramatically for the better and there are much less issues. It's a fairly robust system now.

Had a Trane from original home here....many problems and finally went after 14 years. Replaced it with a Goodman and have found my electric bills are way down.

AC unit life
 

I replaced at 15 years old. It didn’t die but bill was going up. I used John’s AC out of Ocala. Please get 3 or 4 quotes.
Type of units different in your $$$ purchase.I purchase middle. A sister to a main brand.

When did my A/C have to be replaced.
 

My A/C lasted 20 years. All the other A/C companies were telling people that their A/C needed to be replaced. Anyone in my neighborhood who had Chucki Farrell's A/C Company were able to keep their A/C's for nearly 20 years. That tells me something about honesty.



SunKool says 10 to 12 years.

When did yours "die"??[/QUOTE]

How long did my A/C last?
 

Around 10 years, there were a lot of people that were told that they needed a new A/C. Depending who you hire to maintain your A/C will depend on how long you have it. None of Chuck Farrells customers didn't need to change their A/C's at 10 or 12 years.

Too general of a statement. It isn't clear that a builder grade Carrier system will be more reliable than the high-end system from another brand. BTW, the Carrier Infinity failures were never really an issue. They were all covered under warranty and parts were always available the next day. With their zoning system, the temperatures across the house were always even. The 2 piston Bristol compressor was eventually replaced with a Copeland scroll and I suspect that was an improvement although the 66% or 100% compressor speed was not as ideal as the 50% or 100% speed of the Bristol.

Trane to Carrier
 

Ours was 22 years old, the original. Just decided to replace it. Munns serviced ours,so went with a Carrier. Works great cools Fast.

What I was pointing out there are different levels or tiers of equipment that you can buy which are at different cost points and because how they are made may have different lifespans than equipment in other tiers. I don't believe many know this and when a HVAC person suggests a cheaper alternative, the customer needs to understand what they are buying and why it is cheaper. The comment on how well the builder grade Carrier systems have lasted here in the Villages is a testiment to Carrier's design and build quality.

You missed the point. I would take a high-end version of a brand you look down on over a builder grade Carrier. All brands have many different price points. I doubt there is much difference between brands at the same price point. The quality of the installation is probably more important than the brand. I can't speak for all houses in The Villages but the Carrier system installed in my house was actually not the builder grade system.

Okay, thank you.

HVAC replace
 

Ours was 25 years old. However they don't make them like that any more.

Replaced a 12 year old unit with a new a/c unit in 2016. It developed a coil leak last fall and that part of the total unit had to be replaced. Had to pay for labor but not the coil unit.

While visiting a friend, he told me they just had a new A/C system installed. I asked to take a look at it, expecting to see a new Carrier A/C. I was shocked to see a Mitsubishi. It looks similar to the mini-splits people have to cool their lanais, but much larger. I don't know anything about them. Are they considered good?

Always ensure new evaporators have corrosion protection before installation.

Many manufacturers offer pre-coated coils or optional protective coatings. Common types include:
Epoxy coatings: Thin, durable layer that resists moisture and chemicals.
Polyurethane coatings: Excellent for marine or coastal environments with salt exposure.
Phenolic coatings: Provide good protection against acid and salt corrosion.
Electro-fin or Heresite coatings: High-performance coatings for harsh environments.

Or have the installer apply protection.

Common Types of Corrosion to Watch For
Formicary Corrosion: Tiny pinholes in copper caused by organic acids; not visible to the naked eye.
Galvanic Corrosion: Happens when dissimilar metals contact each other in the presence of moisture.
Pitting Corrosion: Localized, intense corrosion forming pits or holes, often due to chemical exposure.

If the package price comes with a big discount then you should consider it. I would get quotes on both options and then make the call. The new condensers are significantly larger and replacing a compressor is much easier than it used to be.

My next door neighbor is a snowbird and she once asked me to oversee the installation of a new compressor that was under a parts only warranty. It took two guys from Munn's about 8 hours to install a new compressor in her condenser unit. The labor charge was $900.

Seems cheap at approximately $100/hr for 2 guys, but OK.

I agree that it seemed cheap to me too. But that is what they charged.

That must have been for a seasoned tech and a helper. Not a bad price. Every case is different so doesn't hurt to price out both options.

21 years and still going

Here in TV?? :bigbow:

Since it seems we are neighbors now. : ) We are both in the same spot 13 years original Carrier unit still working when I left and only one neighbor replaced so far that I spoke with. Whoever said Carrier is cheapest unit builder could've installed is completely wrong. I have worked on heating and ac equipment for years but Ohio is a different animal. Following post.

What I think was said is the builder installed the basic single stage Carrier system. You are correct. Although its basic, it's a very good system.

I'm not sure when this started but in the new builds, if you do your own build vs a spec home, you have the option of a single stage, multi-stage or variable speed inverter system. Of course at different price points. I have some friends who moved to Middleton and built and all opted for the Variable speed inverter system.

Since R410A is being phased out to save the world, are you familiar enough to make recommendations to a homeowner whose HVAC needs to be replaced. Try and get another 410A system if they can find one?

And what modifications will be needed to make the transition to the next generationof refrigerants? I understand they are mildly flammable. Will the linesets have to be replaced?

This is what I found:

Lineset Is In Good Condition
No kinks, corrosion, or wear. Old or damaged copper tubing can leak with mildly flammable refrigerants like R-32 or R-454B.

Proper Flushing or Replacement of Oil and Residue
R-410A uses POE oil, while R-454B and R-32 may use different blends. The line must be thoroughly flushed with approved cleaning agents to remove any old oil or contaminants. Some manufacturers require triple evacuation and filter drier installation.

Manufacturer Approval
Some OEMs (Carrier, Lennox, Trane, etc.) may allow reuse of R-410A linesets with specific procedures. Always follow the manufacturer’s installation guide.

So, R-454B is a blend of R-32 and R-1234yf just as R410A is a blend of R-32 and R-125. Both R-454B, R-32 and R410A are mildly flamable. What mildly flamable means is if there is a leak and you hold a flame at the leak it will ignite but when the flame is removed the ignition will stop. So, unless you are holding a match around your HVAC equipment that's leaking badly there is nothing to worry about. And if there is a leak it's not going to blow your house up because there is not enough freon in your HVAC to do that. R-32 has been used overseas for over a decade so it's what they call "battle hardened". R-454B has been extensively tested so no one expects any surprises.

As far as getting a old unit that used R410A, I don't think anyone is allowed to sell that after January 1, 2025 so it's probably not an option. Although the newer R-454B and R-32 systems are about 5% more expensive than the R410A systems they are slightly more efficient so the added expense may be a wash when you consider the energy savings.

I just purchased a new Carrier Infinity system that uses R-454B and they are replacing the line set. From what I understand, that's not an option. Given copper doesn't last forever I would think replacing the lineset is something you want to do otherwise you might have a leak down the line with reusing the old line set.

There is a lot of misinformation out there on the new freon used in the new HVAC equipment creating a lot of fear so, it's best to do more research on the subject to get the facts not believe the media.

At the end of the day freon has been changed for decades over and over so this time is no different and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

We got 16 years out of ours and replaced it last fall.

I am just curious. Were these failures a bad compressor or a leak/rusty evaporator?

Thank you for the response. Very good information. I forgot or never knew that R410A was regarded as flammable. But I researched it and it is considered "non-flammable" where R454b is considered Low flammability.
🔥 Flammability Precaution Differences:
Precaution Area R-410A (A1 - Non-Flammable) R-454B (A2L - Low Flammability)

I also found some more info:
R-454B: Pros, Cons, & Comparisons to R-410A | Super Radiator Coils

EPA has imposed a deadline of January 1, 2025, after which the manufacture and import of many types of self-contained R-410A systems is prohibited. Consequently, unit manufacturers have been evaluating and deciding on a replacement since the phasedown’s announcement, with several of the largest domestic manufacturers settling on R-454B.

Our test data indicates that R-454B coils will require 10 – 20% additional heat transfer surface to meet the same capacity as and R-410A design.
R410A will be available for many years to come. They are only stopping the manufacturing of R410A equipment and recovered R410A will be mostly recycled. But R410A will experience gradual inflation and may become very expensive in a decade or two.

We did a custom build and opted NOT for the cheapest unit, but the next model up for the humidity monitoring, if I remember correctly. But given today's more spec house type of operations and pricing environment, I would expect the cheapest unit would be installed.

Most A/C units have a standard life of 15 years, though that is an average and can vary by mfg and model. It is not a guarantee, and your A/C will work until it doesn't.

Access Denied

though the following link does not have A/Cs, the link shows the decrease in expected lifespan from 10 years ago
Home Appliance Life Expectancy Chart | Mr. Appliance

So, for A/Cs, over 15 years, you are starting to live on borrowed time, and the best time to replace the unit is in the winter, so that you don't have a summer time emergency, especially when one might be away

good luck to us!

Thanks for the correction on 410A. I also found out that even if R454B is leaking, if the air is moving, it won't ignite if an ignition source is presented so it should be safe. R454B is a mixture of R-32 which has been used for years overseas and R1234yf which is currently used in our cars so not much new except for the mixture.

This whole subject on "new freon" I think is a little overblown since as I mentioned we have gone through this many times. And yes, over time, again we don't know how long, R410A will get expensive since it's not manufactured any longer. We will have to wait and see what happens.

If you need to or are planning on replacing your HVAC system I wouldn't stress over the new freon formulation since first there isn't much difference and second there is nothing any of us can do about it. What we do know is over the next couple of years these systems will continue to incease in price for a multitude of reasons.

From my unscientific survey the HVAC units installed here in the Villages by the builder lasts anywhere from 8-15 years although some have lasted longer. Small numbers will fail at 8 to 10 years and as you go further up in time, more fail. I guess if you keep replacing parts or even the compressor it can last a longer time but at some point it's not going to be running efficiently as it wears out over time. Like any home maintenance item you need to evaluate your needs and plan accordingly. Unfortunately, I'll bet most here in the Villages never pay any attention to their HVAC system, as I've seen by the many preventable failures my neighbors have had, until it stops running. Then they go "crazy" because they can't live without A/C here in Florida then they start complaining about the HVAC company that won't drop everything and come fix their unit.:thumbup:

If you cannot stand the possibility that you may be without air conditioning for a few days, you can buy a floor standing portable unit that will keep your bedroom cool if the AC unit fails. Some of them also provide heat. These are available from Amazon for less than $500 or so. These units use a 4 to 6 inch flexible duct that fits though the window, and they are allowed by The Villages.

maintenance expense, that periodic spend which one can't see why to make the spend. . hindsight bias, don't fix what's not broken. . "works until it doesn't" is not a good strategy when most "doesn't" is never at a good time. Ask lots of the companies run by consultants to maximize return. . same thought process with less executive courses down south, and expecting a golf community not to golf, so northern executive courses got trashed, requiring much higher maintenance expense. . and some large dollar costs.

We had an A/C unprotected weather part fail the day before we were supposed to leave for the summer. :cus: Poor $%^&*() design, and SunKool did come the same day to replace. We were lucky by one day. . I hate relying on luck, though better lucky than good.

A really good financial planning model incorporates big item replacement costs, such as cars, roofs, a/c, kitchen appliances, . . requires alot of detail, and yes, assumptions. . . which is why I also spend extra $ on expensive vehicle maintenance for best longevity. . even though all vehicles are future junk

Well, the written quotes are in...............

1) Variable Speed....Carrier Infinity, 5 Ton: $14,400 plus new zoning (current zoning not compatible) $4,500. Total, call it $20,000.

2) 2-Stage Carrier Performance 4 Ton: $12,900. Current zoning IS compatible.

For $7,000 up-grade cost............not worth it.

Not pulling the trigger, waiting until it dies. Can reply on the 2 Ton for some comfort until the new unit is installed.

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO

:gc: