Question
 

Am not sure if this is appropriate and a good reason to have an Attorney BUT I always understood that if the public used a piece of private property and it was not closed at least one day a year it became a public access and the public had the rights to pass through it forever? You know that in NYC a lot of business's actually close a side walk one day a year to protect it against being made public property..Would like an attorney to see if this has any meaning in this case???:mad:

The wall is located on Villages property and prohibits carts from getting into a property that is owned by the Villages and in which an urgent care facility is located. So it is not, as has been suggested, been built to keep us from traversing someone else's property. If that were the case they would have simply put signs at the end of the road, before the assisted living center, saying, "No Golf Carts Beyond This Point" like they have in numerous other places in the Villages. The wall has been erected on Villages property. If the developer didn't put it there, whoever did would have had to have his permission.

Um.... the medical complex which contains several doctors offices and an urgent care facility is part of the Villages.

The wall is located on Villages property and prohibits carts from getting into a property that is owned by the Villages and in which an urgent care facility is located. So it is not, as has been suggested, been built to keep us from traversing someone else's property or to keep non Villagers out. If that were the case they would have simple had to put signs at the end of the road, before the assisted living center, saying, "No Golf Carts Beyond This Point" like they have in several other places in the Villages.

The wall has been erected on Villages property. If the developer didn't put it there, whoever did would have had to have his permission.

Maybe an email to the TV stations as well. They would be very interested in something like this.

I just may do that...

These are facts and are not that difficult to understand, IMHO.

I'm glad I don't work in the office tomorrow. I'm sure some one is going to get an hear full all day long. Can't believe the wall will remain for long.

They will be earning their pay. That's for sure. I hope you are right about the wall.

:~)

I read some post about rights of egress. There are some Florida Laws that may apply. Since this has been used over a number of years without any complaints from the owner. There could be a good legal case to remove the wall. What would be interesting is if the law suit would have more merit from outside the Villages. Internally the court may look at the a suit from inside the Villages as the owner's suing themselves. Lots of digging legally into what the Villagers sign when they purchased. In any case many dollars to settle in the courts if it came to litigation. Wish my expertise was the law as this would be an interesting fight. I always liked a good scrap now and then.

newstips@clickorlando.com

Central Florida news...they would be interested in this.

I really hope it doesn't go that far. I hope whoever put up the fence decides to be a hero and takes down the fence.

I have the same wish. Progress Energy backed down quickly when they tried to close off the path between Wal-Mart and Aldis once they realized the amount of traffic through the area. That should be settled soon and the path will probably be improved.

Gracie, this was the only golf cart accessible route. I doubt any of us want to constantly ask neighbors/friends/churches to give us a ride to all of the shops and services suddenly now inaccessible. How comfortable would you be asking someone to take you at least once a week to Lowe's?

Personally, I do believe that an easement was created and we have a large legal leg to stand on. Maybe my first calls tomorrow will be to a few attorneys I know, then to the media. (Lauren Ritchie may not be our friend, but she is most definitely not a friend of the Morses -- she may be a great resource in helping us on this one.) I'm not even sure it matters why the wall was put up. What matters is that the wall is up and the longer it stays up, the longer we lose any rights we may have to have it removed.

BK, why are we waiting to put out a petition? At whose request? What are they hoping to accomplish besides a possible delay tactic?

Removing the buffalo was well within the legal rights of the Morses but certainly wasn't handled well. Closing Orange Blossom again was within the Morses' rights but, again, wasn't handled well. Not sure this is entirely true this time but we shall see. Sadly, my gut feeling is that we will lose this one unless we can get that wall down within the week. Easements are tough to regain once lost.

All should keep in mind that the wall was built with the either the approval, or direct direction of Mark Morse. His motivation is not allowing villagers to shop outside "The Walls"............
Just past midnight during the night of August 12-13, 1961, East German soldiers and construction workers headed to the border of West and East Berlin" Does this sound familiar?

Can you spell h y p e r b o l e ?

Dee, I am waiting to get additional information. It seems silly to ask someone to sign a petition without having more information. I would not sign a petition if the petitioner could not explain the basics of who did what and why. I do not know those answers yet. I want to do the right thing and move with logic not pure emotion. I want to give people an opportunity to answer questions so I will have answers.

i have just received an email from a rep of harbor chase of villages crossing in which it is stated that harbor chase did NOT request the building of the wall - they, too, are trying to find out who did - they looked forward to visitors from the villages - and they are upset, too! harbor chase of villages crossing is an ally in this matter!

Redwitch. You make it seem like it is the only golf cart accessible path out of the old area. It is not. It is the only golf cart accessible path to a number of businesses on that side of 441/27 by Golf cart.

I don't see what the buffalo has to do with this.

Is there something wrong in waiting until the business offices open tomorrow and asking someone knowledgeable like Janet Tutt? What will happen if there is some reasonable and plausible answer to all this?

Just a thought since that all we have to go on as to why this "stupid" wall was put up. This goes back to the removed cowboy statue. Maybe some non-villager came on Village property via the golf cart path, got into an accident, and is now suing.

Gracie, it is the only golf cart access to those specific medical buildings and doctors, the new urgent care center, Lowe's and several other unique shops and restaurants. And I don't think I've ever implied it was the only way out of the historic side.

The buffalo were removed in the middle of the night with no warning; the cowboy statue at Brownwood was removed in the middle of the night with no warning; Orange Blossom was closed with very little warning. It seems to be a pattern here -- remove it quickly and quietly; let Villagers complain, rant, plead but be assured it won't come back.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear the argument will be liability issues (it is not a smooth path). To me, that's the logical answer. It is done.

I don't know Florida law but my gut feeling is the only way that will be taken down is by a lawsuit for right of easement. I hope I'm wrong.

If this were the case than a wall would have to be put up at every gate since any non Villager can access with just a push of a button.

I believe that path is the only way to enter The Villages by golf cart

and the only way to leave Villages property by golf cart.


.

That would be correct.

. . .

There used to be an automatic gate for carts there that just let in or out carts that had gate passes.

It was deactivated years ago but the gate mechanism was still in place without gate arms.

.

I don't understand why people are comparing this to the removal of buffalo or a cowboy statue. Those were little esthetic things that some people may have enjoyed. This wall creates a major lifestyle change for a lot of people. In some cases it may cause severe hardship.

I think (or at least hope) everyone understands how this affects those who need this path to reopen. Hopefully we will find out the answer today and get this resolved as soon as possible.

Even if the wall was taken down because of laws permitting it, would the developer have to build and maintain a road or path for safe travel to and from the affected businesses and areas that would be accessed? Would it be his choice to abandon all maintenance? A thought not knowing the laws that would be affected or challenged.

Closing
 

What bothers me the most is the way that it was done..
No explanation
No input from residents
On a weekend when offices are closed
It seems that we are expected to take this action like compliant little people.
What will the Villages do now...say it was for our own good?

Exactly! This goes deeper than a silly statue. There are alot of people literally trapped by this thing. I can tell you that WESH TV is VERY interested in this story! It would be great to get this on the evening news.

The Developer caved in on another injustice back about 10 years ago when villagers with signs protested on 441/27.

Maybe that's what we need to do..anyone interested?

I hope that today the answer will present itself.
 

I am convinced that since this just occurred that the new assisted living has decided they didn't want a cart path across the property they are using. If "they" took the wall down, perhaps you could prove that it was used in that way for so long that now it legally is a pathway...or you could be arrested for trespassing.

I can see that it truly is a great inconvenience for many but I did read on the online paper, Villages Voices that there is another muddy way out that would take you some back way to the places that are necessary. Does anyone want to comment on that? I think that I would think long and hard before I lawyered up. You can buy a used car that works for very low prices and get to where you want to go. You can spend a lot of money on lawyers and be out a lot of money and be right where you were at the beginning.

I understand your frustration. There is an answer here somewhere and it is probably a good idea to start with that.

Gracie, let's think logically. We will know more as the day goes on, but for now let's be level headed and try to get correct answers. How and why would the wall be on TV property if it belonged to someone else? Why would the assisted living advertise as golf cart accessible and have golf cart drivers sign a petition and even promise to pave the path and keep it opened for travel and then come onto TV property and erect a wall and put up signage saying the access is closed? Why would the assisted living put signs up directing cart traffic around the construction if they thought people were trespassing? Why would the businesses in the area have golf cart parking, yet, say people in carts are trespassing?

Maybe you'd be kind and copy and paste the story about the muddy path.

The comparison to the buffalo and statue is simply comparing actions by the developer. I most definitely not putting this at the same level of necessity. As to maintenance, so far as I know, this path was never maintained by the developer or anyone else. If it rains, it is a muddy path. It is grooved and bumpy. It behooves you to drive slowly and carefully.

And, Gracie, if you read recent threads, someone did say they had contacted the assisted living people and they did NOT want the path closed -- the exact opposite.

Come on....................

Now this make sense.

Of course they didn't want the path closed. They are advertising the new facility with reference to the cart path. Even The Oaks Villages | Stonecrest | Del Webb | Lady Lake advertises that the facility has: "Accessibility with multiple access points including golf cart access"..."via the Villages and Stonecrest..."

Gracie we all know how much you "love the Developer" and how fond you are of the Morse family but here's a few things...you aren't on this side of TV and therefore you can't relate to the enormous problems this thing has caused. Morse did this...sorry to break the news to you but this guy is a power hungry jerk who never cared about this side of TV. That's why our restaurant is gone, our street signs are falling apart, houses that are abandoned are ignored when complained about and now, we are walled up like Berlin! The wall is on Villages property, we ALL know who put it there and now we have to cover all our bases to get it removed.