[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Laker14

are you seriously worried that if we remove statues honoring slave owning generals fighting to preserve white supremacy and human slavery, that we will forget the Civil War, and the institution of slavery? Really?
Is it your position that the people who want these statues removed also want us to forget that a Great War was fought over the issue of whether or not human slavery was to be allowed to continue in our country?
Take a moment and consider that position.

You should consider ALL of the things the Civil War was about...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Byte1

The war was not about "white supremacy and defenders of slavery." No one is "glorifying" it. If you are ashamed of YOUR history, that's a personal problem. Since it was NOT my heritage, the statues do not bother me. I am interested in why after decades, today's overly sensitive people are more worried about erasing or perverting the past than fixing, healing the present. I can understand the idea of removing the confederate battle flag from gov buildings, but being intimidated and scared of a few historic statues in pretty amusing. Personally, I don't care what you do with the statues, but I think it is pathetic to cater to a few sensitive folks. Interesting how many flags of other countries are flown daily, even in the Villages. That doesn't bother anyone? I know that some are sensitive to political flags flown.

I believe that Lincoln was president when boat loads of blacks were shipped off to what is known as Liberia, as an experiment on getting rid of all slaves. There seems to be plenty of blame to go around for anyone that lived in that period.
One of the first slave owners was a black man from Virginia.
The Civil War was more about the economics in the South than slavery as an institution.
Take reminders of President Clinton down because he was a sexist and adulterer.
Take President Kennedy's reminders down because he was a sexist and adulterer.
Take Johnson's reminders down because he was a racist.
Destroy all reminders of the internment camps for Japanese-American citizens because they are an embarrassment to our country.
But, by all means get rid or YOUR evidence of the Civil war.

I agree with the content of this post...

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

I agree with the content of this post...

Originally Posted by Byte1

The war was not about "white supremacy and defenders of slavery." No one is "glorifying" it. If you are ashamed of YOUR history, that's a personal problem. Since it was NOT my heritage, the statues do not bother me. I am interested in why after decades, today's overly sensitive people are more worried about erasing or perverting the past than fixing, healing the present. I can understand the idea of removing the confederate battle flag from gov buildings, but being intimidated and scared of a few historic statues in pretty amusing. Personally, I don't care what you do with the statues, but I think it is pathetic to cater to a few sensitive folks. Interesting how many flags of other countries are flown daily, even in the Villages. That doesn't bother anyone? I know that some are sensitive to political flags flown.

I believe that Lincoln was president when boat loads of blacks were shipped off to what is known as Liberia, as an experiment on getting rid of all slaves. There seems to be plenty of blame to go around for anyone that lived in that period.
One of the first slave owners was a black man from Virginia.
The Civil War was more about the economics in the South than slavery as an institution.
Take reminders of President Clinton down because he was a sexist and adulterer.
Take President Kennedy's reminders down because he was a sexist and adulterer.
Take Johnson's reminders down because he was a racist.
Destroy all reminders of the internment camps for Japanese-American citizens because they are an embarrassment to our country.
But, by all means get rid or YOUR evidence of the Civil war.

You've got the Vice President of the Confederacy saying, point blank that the cornerstone of the Confederacy is the supremacy of the white race, and that the negro's place is subservient to the white man,
and one of you posts that the war was not about either of those two things, and the other agrees with that post.
Talk about whitewashing history, talk about changing history, right in the face of iron clad evidence, well,folks, there you have it.

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

You should consider ALL of the things the Civil War was about...

And you should understand that while there were many issues of conflict between the two sides of the war, the only one that the south could not, and would not abide, and would not compromise on, was the issue of slavery.
As a matter of fact, the north was willing to allow slavery to continue in the states where it was already established. It was the disagreement about whether or not new states would be allowed to become slave states, based upon their own volition, as opposed to a Federal prohibition on the institution of slavery in new territories and eventually the states that they would become, that was the ground upon which they would not compromise.
Nobody here is saying the north was innocent of the sin of white supremacy over the negro (using the accepted terminology of the time). In fact there was no allowance for equality for the black man, following the Emancipation Proclamation.

Given all of that, as proclaimed by Alexander Stephens, the Confederacy was founded on the principle that the White Man was superior to the Black Man, and it was the White Man's right to hold the Black Man a slave, and the war was fought to preserve that ideal and that institution.
To claim otherwise is, to borrow from another thread, to claim "the grass is blue".

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Oh look! A shiny object!

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Laker14

Oh look! A shiny object!

No, it's a statue...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Laker14

You've got the Vice President of the Confederacy saying, point blank that the cornerstone of the Confederacy is the supremacy of the white race, and that the negro's place is subservient to the white man,
and one of you posts that the war was not about either of those two things, and the other agrees with that post.
Talk about whitewashing history, talk about changing history, right in the face of iron clad evidence, well,folks, there you have it.

So, Robt E. Lee's comments about the horror of slavery means nothing... And Lincon's statement that if he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave means nothing...

But sure, carry on...

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Laker14

And you should understand that while there were many issues of conflict between the two sides of the war, the only one that the south could not, and would not abide, and would not compromise on, was the issue of slavery.
As a matter of fact, the north was willing to allow slavery to continue in the states where it was already established. It was the disagreement about whether or not new states would be allowed to become slave states, based upon their own volition, as opposed to a Federal prohibition on the institution of slavery in new territories and eventually the states that they would become, that was the ground upon which they would not compromise.
Nobody here is saying the north was innocent of the sin of white supremacy over the negro (using the accepted terminology of the time). In fact there was no allowance for equality for the black man, following the Emancipation Proclamation.

Given all of that, as proclaimed by Alexander Stephens, the Confederacy was founded on the principle that the White Man was superior to the Black Man, and it was the White Man's right to hold the Black Man a slave, and the war was fought to preserve that ideal and that institution.
To claim otherwise is, to borrow from another thread, to claim "the grass is blue".

Ah yes, Alexander Stephens governor of Georgia from 1882 until his death in 1883. Also a friend of Abraham Lincoln. Not sure, did they remove his statue yet? I believe he was against succession, if I am not mistaken. He was undoubtedly a racist. In his time, his view was fairly common. Kind of makes one wonder how Senator Byrd (grand dragon of the KKK) managed to make it into the 21st century in our government. Good friends of the Clintons. Time to get rid of some more monuments that are more current.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Ah yes, Alexander Stephens governor of Georgia from 1882 until his death in 1883. Also a friend of Abraham Lincoln. Not sure, did they remove his statue yet? I believe he was against succession, if I am not mistaken. He was undoubtedly a racist. In his time, his view was fairly common. Kind of makes one wonder how Senator Byrd (grand dragon of the KKK) managed to make it into the 21st century in our government. Good friends of the Clintons. Time to get rid of some more monuments that are more current.

1. Byrd wasn't the Grand Dragon. He was the Exalted Cylops of his own local Klan group.
2. He later publicly apologized for being a member, and warned young people in an interview to NOT join the Klan.

3. He wrote, in a note to a segregationalist senator from Mississippi, "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

If you want to defend that, or excuse it as a reflection of the times, or think it's not nearly as bad as whatever you want to "what about" this week....

if this doesn't mortify you, and horrify you, and make you feel grateful as hell we don't live in that time now, and doesn't make you want to do whatever you can to ensure that it never happens again....

then you're just another white supremacist, and that would explain your attitude toward this topic.

Yes, it was a different time, then. We have evolved. If you don't like it, go find yourself a hole somewhere where you can pretend you're still in the slave days and put a sign on the front of your cave that says "no negros allowed."

You might as well, because that's how you feel.

[Laker14]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

So, Robt E. Lee's comments about the horror of slavery means nothing... And Lincon's statement that if he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave means nothing...

But sure, carry on...

They mean everything. They just don't serve as an argument against the Civil War being about the preservation of human slavery.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

1. Byrd wasn't the Grand Dragon. He was the Exalted Cylops of his own local Klan group.

So that makes it better?

2. He later publicly apologized for being a member, and warned young people in an interview to NOT join the Klan.

3. He wrote, in a note to a segregationalist senator from Mississippi, "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

If you want to defend that, or excuse it as a reflection of the times, or think it's not nearly as bad as whatever you want to "what about" this week....

So, an apology is all that's needed? Then Robt E Lee's statue should remain. He was against slavery and made sure, in his will, that his heirs would not receive their inheritance if they owned a slave...

if this doesn't mortify you, and horrify you, and make you feel grateful as hell we don't live in that time now, and doesn't make you want to do whatever you can to ensure that it never happens again....

Yes, that horrifies me. So why are you so quick to defend Byrd?

then you're just another white supremacist, and that would explain your attitude toward this topic.

Nice insult!

Yes, it was a different time, then. We have evolved. If you don't like it, go find yourself a hole somewhere where you can pretend you're still in the slave days and put a sign on the front of your cave that says "no negros allowed."

You might as well, because that's how you feel.

WOW! Once again, you insult those you disagree with...

I'm beginning to think you're simply projecting...

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

1. Byrd wasn't the Grand Dragon. He was the Exalted Cylops of his own local Klan group.
2. He later publicly apologized for being a member, and warned young people in an interview to NOT join the Klan.

3. He wrote, in a note to a segregationalist senator from Mississippi, "I shall never fight in the armed forces with a negro by my side ... Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

If you want to defend that, or excuse it as a reflection of the times, or think it's not nearly as bad as whatever you want to "what about" this week....

if this doesn't mortify you, and horrify you, and make you feel grateful as hell we don't live in that time now, and doesn't make you want to do whatever you can to ensure that it never happens again....

then you're just another white supremacist, and that would explain your attitude toward this topic.

Yes, it was a different time, then. We have evolved. If you don't like it, go find yourself a hole somewhere where you can pretend you're still in the slave days and put a sign on the front of your cave that says "no negros allowed."

You might as well, because that's how you feel.

Like I said, I am not a Karen and get emotional and sensitive over the past. Like I also said, my family had nothing to do with the Civil War and slavery or the endorsement of such. Accusing me of being a racist or white supremacist when you do not know me or my background would be humorous if not so pathetic and ridiculous. My discussion had to do with the removal of historic reminders in the guise of racism. I think that some folks have way too much time and not enough controversial events to focus on so they dig up stupid ideas to divide the population into groups. I doubt that anyone on here is a true racist and definitely not a supremacist. But, I have been fooled before. I was once fooled into thinking that folks on here could have an intelligent conversation without some sensitive individuals calling them names. But, rather than being fooled perhaps I am just mistaken?

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Byte1

My discussion had to do with the removal of historic reminders in the guise of racism.

These statues of Confederate Heroes, are not being removed as "historic reminders in the guise of racism." They are being removed as "historic reminders OF racism."

No one needs to have "yes, the south was, and still is racist" shoved in their faces every time they want to visit a public park.

If that sentiment bothers you, then look inward as to why.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Like I said, I am not a Karen and get emotional and sensitive over the past. Like I also said, my family had nothing to do with the Civil War and slavery or the endorsement of such. Accusing me of being a racist or white supremacist when you do not know me or my background would be humorous if not so pathetic and ridiculous. My discussion had to do with the removal of historic reminders in the guise of racism. I think that some folks have way too much time and not enough controversial events to focus on so they dig up stupid ideas to divide the population into groups. I doubt that anyone on here is a true racist and definitely not a supremacist. But, I have been fooled before. I was once fooled into thinking that folks on here could have an intelligent conversation without some sensitive individuals calling them names. But, rather than being fooled perhaps I am just mistaken?

Nah, calling people "White Supremacists" is just an attempt to shut them up...

Another member called me the same.. Funny, as a Jew, the "White Supremacists" would never have me as a member... Go figure...

Curing the Civil War, my family was running for their lives, from the Pogroms...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

These statues of Confederate Heroes, are not being removed as "historic reminders in the guise of racism." They are being removed as "historic reminders OF racism."

No one needs to have "yes, the south was, and still is racist" shoved in their faces every time they want to visit a public park.

If that sentiment bothers you, then look inward as to why.

Good thing there's no racism in the North...

Wait, what?