I never heard of a dead animal feeling pain. I recently moved to Pennecamp and have talked to many new neighbors. You would be surprised at how many people never heard of Gary Morse or TOTV.

Answer to Ajack
 

Two points. I said animals feel pain as they are dying. They lose control of their bowels and often let out a death cry. Its not like television. I have seen many animals shot and it is sickening. Plus they said some of these animals were wounded which is even worst but happens in hunting.
Second - I don't think many villagers heard this story from TOTV but rather from newspapers and TV.

Sorry, Shadow, I can't say thanks for the link. I don't think it has any relevance. It is nothing really new. We already knew Rainey left the carcass and kept the trophy head. The fact he cut off the legs is disgusting, cruel, ugly, but irrelevant.

I sincerely hope that Morse, Rainey, et al., get whatever is deserved. I know it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everything I've read screams guilty. If I were on a jury in Montana for this case, I would have to be excused because I do believe all of the events occurred and I know them to be illegal.

As to Gracie, she really is as sweet as she sounds. She can (rarely) get cranky and even occasionally snaps, but on the whole she tries very hard to see the best in people. Heck, she even talks to me and gives me much needed hugs even though she knows I'm no fan of the Morses (TV, yes; the Morse family, no).

As to discussions in TV about this incident, it is definitely talked about. I play Mah-Jongg with a group of ladies whose knowledge of the internet is somewhere between slim and none. None of them have ever gone near TOTV that I know of. They all knew about the poaching. Three of them were upset about it; two really didn't see that it mattered in the grand scheme of TV; two didn't believe it all. So, if these seven women knew about this incident, I'm guessing it is pretty much common knowledge in TV.

Answer to Wilson
 

I only quoted what you said. Also many of my new neighbors never heard of Gary Morse or the so-called incident.That must tell you something.

I have one question for all that says that "character matters" If it was discovered that the Morses were mass murderers, would you sell your house here in The Villages? Would it make this place any worse? What really is accomplished here by all this gossiping?

And for the people who love it here but "hate" Mr. Morse: Do you really know the man? If you hate him so much, then show some "character" and leave.

It sure tells me something - since everyone else is talking about it, they are really out of the loop and obviously don't keep up with the latest news. Maybe they've been too busy unpacking to watch television or read a newspaper.

Ajack, don't know about anyone else, but I've never said I hate the Morses -- just don't like their greed factor -- and I've yet to read a single post where someone said they hated the Morses. Regardless of their character, TV is a wonderful place to live and that is because the majority of people who live here are truly wonderful. Why should someone leave just because they don't like the developer? It doesn't mean they don't love their home or their neighbors or their community.

Two suggestions
 

Suggestion One: Shawdow consider goingn to Gracie's TOTV house party.
Suggestion Two: Talk Host please adjust your posting times to reflect day light savings

Maybe hate was too strong, but of course, you knew what I meant. My post was said with my tongue in cheek. People here keep saying the same thing over and over again about the man's character. Well, all I'm saying is that if these people have the audacity to question someones character, they should also be principled enough to do something about it.
As for greed, the rich get rich because they have the nerve and vision to invest into something they believe in. It took mountains of money to build this place that we call home. He could have lost as much as he made. This is America. People say that in England, they envy the well to do, and they are amazed that here in the USA people admire the successful.
That is who we are. Some people call it greed, and some people call it smart business. Think how many people are riding on Mr. Morse's coattails.
How many jobs has he created? All I know is that I am grateful for this lovely place, that I now call home.

I find this post offensive, particularly the title. The issue has been discussed and all this post does is stir the pot unnecessarily.

huh?

redwitch, i agree with most of your posts, but you need to explain this one you posted,

"I know it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but everything I've read screams guilty. If I were on a jury in Montana for this case, I would have to be excused because I do believe all of the events occurred and I know them to be illegal."

How can you possibly pass judgement based on what you have read on the internet.

Shadow, why did you feel the need to post an article that has already been debated on this forum ad nauseum for the past week. I live in the village of Belvedere, as another poster asked in this thread, what village do you live in...gn

Gracie vs The Shadow
 

I knew this day would happen! I met Gracie for the first time this week and mention that the person who I really enjoy reading on this site is "The Shadow." The Shadow will always tell us what he/she dislikes about the Villages. We need a Village critic to remind us that the Villages is not heaven and has faults like everything else in this world. I can assure you "Shadow" that Gracie is not on the Morse Payroll. However Gracie is on the payroll of enjoying life by having a home in the Villages and enjoying new friendships. Just recently, I have bought a home in the Villages and I'm trying to be like Gracie. In two weeks, I have enjoyed the Villages' activities and meeting new people. Maybe someday I will meet The Shadow and whisper "lets have a cup a coffee and discuss our life experiences."

golfnut -- I'm usually one of those people who truly gives others the benefit of the doubt and I'm surprised by my reaction to this. Heck, I've been fairer to Kacee Anderson in that I do believe she probably did it but I want all of the known facts before making my decision. But not this time. This time it is guilty until proven innocent for me. Not proud of it, but it is what it is.

So, I'll try to explain why I believe the charges. This was a long investigation. I'm sure that part of that was because Food & Game people have so little power that they really have to have their ducks in a row. That's reason one. I have friends in Montana and Wyoming and have been there many times to camp, hunt, just hang out. They all hate the "gentlemen" ranchers who buy but don't work the ranches -- they treat their ranches like private game preserves. Rainey and Morse fit this group to a tee. That's reason two. From what I've seen and heard of the Morses, there is a sense of entitlement. That's reason three. Also, my comments are not just based on what I've read on the internet. I called one of my friends -- they own a ranch right next "door" to the Morse/Rainey ranch. They're only mad it took so long to charge this group. They've known of the activities for a long time (or so I was told -- I really do take what I read and see with a large grain of salt). That's reason four. So, given my visceral reaction and my personal knowledge of the judicial system (pretty extensive), poaching (limited) and Montana (enough to understand their attitudes), I do believe they are guilty as charged. Mind you, I do not want them sentenced without a fair trial if they choose they route (which I doubt will be the case), which is why I said I would have to be excused from the jury.

Red. You mean Casey Anthony?

Uh-huh -- got Casey and Kaylee confused and put them together (hey, it's early!).

I don't know, Red, saying "They all hate the "gentlemen" ranchers who buy but don't work the ranches -- " really? Or are they jealous? And as for the entitlement, these men have worked hard and I'm sure at this point they do feel some sense of entitlement. I certainly would. Not to poach game mind you, but entitlement to enjoy the finer things in life.
Again, if Montana was so concerned about the loss of these animals, why not bring it to these men,in no uncertain terms, early in the game? Or do you wait until you can really sock it to them with very heavy fines and possible incarceration? Then it becomes more about money and revenge rather than saving the animals.
Hmmmm, consider this. If they are charged with felonies maybe they can run for powerful political offices.:throwtomatoes:

Vermont Hunting
 

We live in Vermont which is also a big hunting state. Deer hunting season has just begun. Anyone experienced with hunting would know that a license is required.

Those who own land in Montana, Colorado, Oregon or other western state should also know that they need a license to hunt, whether or not they own the land.

Animal rights activists would certainly be upset with the way the animals were left. I , personally, would not want to kill any animal although hubby did go up to deer hunting camp faithfully for decades. I did show the story from the Orlando Sentinel to him.

I see nothing wrong with Shadow posting a hyperlink to this news. We still do have freedom to read whatever we please, even in the Villages, correct?

We are definitely planning to visit TV to decide once and for all whether it will be apples or oranges for our golden years. First, we have to welcome our fourth grandchild this coming spring. Life is what happens when you are making other plans. But TV does seem to have so much going for it.....but sometimes I wonder about the freedom of thought and freedom of speech aspect.

Red? With your experience with courts have you ever served on a jury?

Every time I have been summoned for jury service as soon as I tell them I have a law degree someone challenges me and bumps me from the jury pool. This happened in Sonoma County (@1995), Pinellas County (2003), and just this year at the Federal Courthouse in Ocala which covers federal cases Marion, Sumter and Lake Counties.

I did not even bother with Sumter County's drive down to the County Seat when a summons looked imminent. I mentioned I had a law degree to the County Clerk and got bumped from the jury pool.

The Federal case looked really interesting too and would have loved to have heard the lawyers arguments about employment discrimination based on a Lake County cop's use of the Spanish language in his various police reports.

I have no real opinion about the Morse family or friends guilt with respect to poaching yet. I need to see more of the particular facts without any slant on them. Need to know the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How of the case(s).

Yes, England's fascination with the rich and famous seems to be our inheritance here in the States. Then comes class envy. Then comes.........well, best left unsaid or it would then become political.

Seems to me that some people are dissatisfied with their own lot in life and need to bring other's to their level.

Contra Costa County really didn't care if you worked in the legal field, including having a law degree. So, I served on a civil jury, a criminal trial and a one week stint as a grand juror (ask me how to make meth -- I now know it intimately; there was a case about it every day with the same testimony every time).

Sam, I think we all have a sense of entitlement, but Rainey and the Morses put themselves above the law when they hunted without a license and there's no excuse for that type of entitlement. And, no, I don't think it is jealousy that eats at the Montana ranchers. Most of them are pretty well off in their own rights -- you can't own the spreads they do without being successful. The smaller ranchers are probably another story, but not the ones that I know. They want their neighbors to be there, to join in on the round-ups (actually, quite fun), the barbeques, etc. For someone to buy a ranch simply so they and their friends can hunt on it is not what they want for neighbors. They really do want the ranches to be working ranches and they don't want them owned by corporations or those who don't care about the environment of their community. I've heard many discussions about this in the past (haven't been there in a few years, so have no idea what's being said now but I can only imagine it's gotten worse).

I do agree it would have been nice had they charged everyone much earlier. I have no idea why it took so long, but I imagine part of it is making sure the charges would stick. The FDA really doesn't have much clout (and why in heck is hunting under the auspices of the FDA is beyond me), so investigations have to be extremely thorough. Another factor could be the "shotgun" approach -- the more charges against the culprits, the better chance of making something stick. Another part is probably they wanted to up the ante on the charges. Just getting them for one season would probably not leave on impact on the next group who decide to hunt without a license, so it does make sense for the charges to be over a couple of seasons, but I'm not convinced 4 years was necessary other than to try to add more to the coffers.

What's interesting to me is how the undercover investigator is being criticized -- not for waiting so long to bring the charges but for killing a sheep (big horn?) out of season. Think he'd have a hard time hunting with this group if he didn't hunt when they did but that seems to be irrelevant to Montanans. Some want charges brought against him, too.

One person post information found in a article from the Orlando Sentinel - then the next five people jump all over him. If you don't like the post don't read it or post anything to keep it going - or maybe its the number of posts you have and are in the running for first place?? then post something like I agree or I disagree, that will give you another post I think to be in first place you have to be on this site more time then I have to give - i have a life and things to do sorry- as for the Orlando Sentinel dislike maybe it because of Lauren Ritchie (this is a link to the original story http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,2191208.story you will see at the bottom of the article "Christine Show, Lauren Ritchie and Martin Comas of the Sentinel contributed to this story." so keep reading the Daily Mail and stay well informed because what the Daily Mail reports is the real world. that all i have to say -- don't shoot the messenger - just sit back -- enjoy -- have another glass of Kool Aid - sorry maybe too much Kool Aid

I'm just curious, do you need a license to hunt on your own land in Vermont?

One can question motives for such a post and I for one, questioned why it was posted. You're right, by my responding I'm keeping this disgusting event in the limelight, BUT I did not get an answer to my question and if nothing, I'm persistent.

I'll check and get back to you. My husband would spend the first hunting weekend after Veterans Day at the camp which his friend built from scratch. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm fairly certain he told me that the fellow needed a license to hunt. The friend's aunt owned the land. I will check.

Bow hunting might be different than rifle hunting. Again, I'm not the hunter.
Bow hunting starts earlier in the autumn than rifle.

Neither of my children cared to hunt as they loved animals too much.
Personally, I've only had venison once....but it is a big deal amongst the native Vermonters.

Many people feel you should only kill an animal if you truly need the meat to survive. In that case, before I shot one, I'd become a vegan, no doubt about it. However, hunters will always say that our MacDonalds burger or what have you had a "face" once too.

There is a lot to agree with in your post Senior Citizen. I think a lot of us would shift to being vegetarians if we read headlines like "Publix employee takes meat cleaver to legs of dead cow".

Bias
 

Lauren Richie stated, in another thread here, that it is her JOB to put slant on what she writes because she is a "columnist paid to write in such a way that it convinces readers" of her slant . . . which is bias. I think everyone here knows that her disdain for the Morses' political party is the motive for her bias.

So why, when she writes in a "news" story, should we believe that this is objective, fact-only reporting and not sensationalism meant to convince readers of her slant against "The Rich"???

My husband has not replied to my email asking again if a Vermont land owner needs a license to hunt on his own land. Originally he told me that they did.

However, I did check with the Vermont Wildlife Department, sending them an email.
No reply yet. Their website does not mention it at all, one way or the other.

I've googled it and nothing at all shows up for a Vermont land owner to be able to hunt without a license. Free hunting licenses are available to Vermont residents serving in the military. In some states, residents over age 70 can hunt for free.

I'm hoping the Vermont Wildlife will answer soon as I'd like to know now. We have a family of deer that cross through our back property for at least 16 years now. Shooting them in a residential area would be prohibited. There are apple orchards fairly close by and this entire area was once a big apple orchard......so they must be creatures of habit.

Ayup, however, I'm no expert but doesn't the butcher have to use some type of cleaver to cut through the bones. So much of the meat comes already packaged but some butcher someplace is using an electric gizmo which might be similar to a chainsaw. Any retired butchers out there?

I'm guessing again as I'm no hunter myself, but I think the deer in Vermont are taken home and hung up to age before they butcher them. Anyone know ? Some do it themselves and it wouldn't surprise me at all in the State of Vermont if the guys did use a chainsaw. Others took it to a butcher and I have no idea what they use to cut through the bones and carcass,etc.

My husband always defended his hunting with the fact that we all eat beef and chicken and other forms of meat that were once walking around before being killed. But that is another subject entirely.

The article in the paper was on trophy hunting not on the need for food.

I'll say one thing, if nothing else, the title of this thread is certainly an attention grabber.

I could be wrong but I think butchers use a machine similar to a bandsaw.

Gracie, how do you imagine the butcher cuts those pretty t-bone steaks? They use a very large table saw that is similar to the kind you husband has in his workshop. The legs have to come off somehow.

My uncle Ernie was a butcher. He was in the era of non electric dismemberment.

Ewwwww.:loco:

Somehow, the non-electric dismemberment seems more respectful.

Hello again,
I really did try to find an answer to your question, however, now even my husband is unsure and thinks maybe Vermont land owners can hunt without a license but only during the short hunting season.....not year round. He doesn''t know for certain.

The Vermont Wildlife Hunting & Fishing link has not yet answered my email.

I cannot find a definitive answer to your question....although I did learn a lot about the deer population and who can apply for a license. No info on who is allowed to hunt without a license, if at all. There are free licenses.

Perhaps someone else does know.

I looked it up on the same state link for Vermont and couldn't find an answer either. Thank you for taking the time to look though.

The Montana Elk Chainsaw Massacre.
 

That is very close to the Title of the Orlando Sentinel article linked by the Shadow.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,2346627.story


"Wildlife violations: Florida man accused of cutting off elk legs with chain saw...."


Sort of like the Montana Elk Chainsaw Massacre.

There seems to be a lynch mob sort of vibe from the Comments section of the Orlando Sentinel article.


ptenant09--
"Leave these arsholes in the woods to die."

theroyalty--
"dress these guys up like elk."

Just received a reply from State of Vermont Gov.
 

Just received following response from Charles Drury at Vermont State Government Wildlife:

Question: Does a land owner in Vermont need a license to hunt on his land?

EXCEPTIONS TO LICENSE REQUIREMENTS:
A resident owner of land in Vermont, his or her spouse, and minor children may hunt within the boundary of that land and take fish from a private pond within the boundary of that land without a license within season. Hunting and fishing must be done according to regulations. A nonresident owner of the land has equal privilege if his or her land is NOT posted.

(Meaning posted NO HUNTING).

Living elsewhere I really don't have an opinion on any disdain for the Morse family......however, the Orlando paper must have received their information from the Montana newspapers, correct? A felony is a felony. I doubt if they are handing out charges without something to back it up. Perhaps he felt that he was entitled to hunt on his own land without a license, as I just discovered Vermont landowners can indeed do. But if their law states otherwise, then he no doubt will never serve a prison term but will pay a hefty fine. To "hide" the news would be worse than exposing the news.
People are pretty smart and will draw their own conclusions when the total facts are in.......but why is everyone afraid to respond ? Prisons are overcrowded and I doubt if they would go to prison for poaching or dismembering elk. In North Carolina a sweet little girl's murderer is the one who should be worrying right now. The buzz is that the dad used his woodchipper to dismember her body after she "died"; the stepmom wrote a fake ransom note.....it's little Zahra Baker I'm referring to.

Excellent post. I started to correct you when you said a felony is a felony. But you are correct as far as Montana felonies go. Some states have different classes of felonies. Not Montana. A felony is a felony in Montana. It is just the punishment that varies in Montana.

It is the same in your state of Vermont. North Carolina has different classes of felonies.